For a brief second today there was a buzz of a possible Mets 2 headed monster actually being discovered. Yet the elusive beast turned out to have just been a possible figment of someone’s imagination, or was it?
Here is a screen shot of what Macksmets blog posted that reported the following.
It was shortly after removed because Mack said that one of his two sources had recanted so he pulled the story. Understandable since now he had no one to corroborate the story. Still though the idea of a Alderson/Hahn union is very intriguing. Some would say it is even too good to be true. Who knows maybe that 2 headed monster will show it’s heads in the near future once more. For now it is but a fairy tale.
131 comments
stickguy
10/13/2010-6:09pm at 6:09 pm (UTC -4)
yes, this would be my Met best case scenerio. Exactly what I think they should do.
only item I might change is #6, but that is just due to the good reports on the work Collins did (unless, of course, that was not his title!) But a minor quibble, let them replace everyone in the FO right down to the coffee boy.
Mr North Jersey
10/13/2010-6:11pm at 6:11 pm (UTC -4)
This from Adam Rubin.
Jeff Wilpon: “We are looking for a GM. … That GM along with John will go through search for a manager.”
http://twitter.com/#!/AdamRubinESPN/status/27280381214
Jeff Wilpon: “My uncle Saul Katz would be unhappy giving up his title”
http://twitter.com/#!/AdamRubinESPN/status/27280403218
stickguy
10/13/2010-6:12pm at 6:12 pm (UTC -4)
from a Rubin tweet right next to this box.
“My uncle Saul Katz would be unhappy giving up his title” (Jeff on president)”
If they pass on hiring the best choice over an issue like this, then there probably is no hope for change!
So, just give Alderson some other title. Call him the grand poobah if you want, just give him the authority to get the job done.
Let Saul keep whatever pretend title he has now. Is it at all possible Katz adds any iota of value to the baseball operations team?
Prismo
10/13/2010-8:00pm at 8:00 pm (UTC -4)
I can’t believe Jeff said that, what a MORON.
Make Katz the “Executive President of Poopoo Platters” and tell him it’s a promotion, then hire Alderson to be the real President of the Mets.
Mr North Jersey
10/13/2010-6:14pm at 6:14 pm (UTC -4)
But then Fred Flintstone will not get a shot at ever being the grand poobah.
metsfan4decades
10/14/2010-7:34am at 7:34 am (UTC -4)
I think that would be Ralph Cramden – but same difference.
TRS86
10/14/2010-8:13am at 8:13 am (UTC -4)
Actually believe it or not it is from the Flinstones. They are basically the same show anyway.
metsfan4decades
10/14/2010-12:03pm at 12:03 pm (UTC -4)
You know…now that I’m thinking about this, you must be right.
With Ralph, it was the Moose lodge – or some such thing.
Getting my old time shows mixed up. .)
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-12:06pm at 12:06 pm (UTC -4)
It’s all good 4D. Nice 2 just see u again.
TRS86
10/14/2010-12:34pm at 12:34 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, in my opinion they were basically the same show just a few setting differences.
Mr North Jersey
10/13/2010-6:36pm at 6:36 pm (UTC -4)
Best comment so far in regards to Anderson/Hahn story fwicg,com.
hankypanky
Oct 13, 2010, 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #
Pass me that roach.
gategem
10/13/2010-7:45pm at 7:45 pm (UTC -4)
For what it’s worth DAVID LENNON wrote the following in Newsday:
“The Mets have added Dodgers assistant general manager Logan White to their list of first-round interviews for this week, but a team spokesman said yesterday that they are still waiting for permission on additional candidates, which may lengthen the timetable for hiring a new GM.
White Sox assistant GM Rick Hahn interviewed Tuesday, with former Diamondbacks GM Josh Byrnes to follow Wednesday and White confirmed for Friday. The Mets have yet to announce a date for Sandy Alderson, but that interview seems likely for Thursday.
Heading into this week, it was believed that the Mets would choose their next GM from the four candidates who had been scheduled for interviews: Red Sox assistant GM Allard Baird, who was in Monday, Hahn, Byrnes or Alderson. But White’s name surfaced in a report by ESPNLosAngeles.com late Monday and the Mets stated Tuesday that they were waiting on permission for others.
One of those candidates could be Rangers GM Jon Daniels, whose team won Game 5 against the Rays last night. With the Rangers advancing in the playoffs to meet the Yankees, that could delay any interview, as it is unlikely Daniels would speak to the Mets with Texas in the American League Championship Series.
Daniels, 33, is from Bayside, Queens, and despite his success getting the Rangers back to the playoffs for the first time since 1999, the draw of returning home could help the Mets. He also has an out in his contract that would allow him to leave, but it is believed the new ownership group will work very hard to keep him in Texas.
Another possible addition is the Diamondbacks’ Jerry DiPoto, who lost out on the Arizona GM job to Kevin Towers but has since signed on to stay in a different role. DiPoto, a former relief pitcher for the Mets, took over as the D-backs’ interim GM when Byrnes was fired earlier this season.
White, 47, interviewed for Arizona’s GM position after Byrnes was fired, but the job went to Towers. White is best known for his scouting skills and success in the draft, from which he helped build the Dodgers with the picks of Matt Kemp, James Loney, Chad Billingsley, Clayton Kershaw and Jonathan Broxton.
The Los Angeles Times reported Tuesday that White already has signed a two-year extension with the Dodgers to remain as an assistant GM and head of the amateur scouting department. That would seem to rule out any chance of White leaving Los Angeles for anything less than a GM job with the Mets, unless they could give him a different job title to work in a top scouting capacity with another GM, such as Alderson, who is believed to be the favorite.
The Mets currently have five interviews planned this week for the first round, which is being handled by chief operating officer Jeff Wilpon and interim GM John Ricco. Once the list is pared to a smaller group, principal owner Fred Wilpon and team president Saul Katz will be involved in the final decision.”
metsfan4decades
10/14/2010-7:36am at 7:36 am (UTC -4)
Somewhere yesterday I saw a quote from Rangers organization quoting: ‘Jon Daniels isn’t going anywhere’.
gategem
10/14/2010-9:20am at 9:20 am (UTC -4)
In a followup article LENNON writes:
“The Mets intend to hire only a general manager from this round of interviews, which continues Thursday with Sandy Alderson, and the hope is to have a new one in place by the end of the World Series, though that timetable is “flexible.”
Chief operating officer Jeff Wilpon and interim GM John Ricco revealed those plans Wednesday during a 20-minute conference call that served as an update after the club had interviewed three of their first five candidates: Red Sox assistant GM Allard Baird, White Sox assistant Rick Hahn and former Diamondbacks GM Josh Byrnes.
As for what they have learned from those meetings, Wilpon and Ricco refused to go into detail about each candidate’s blueprint for fixing the Mets. But they stressed the importance of looking beyond next season, which could be the type of rebuilding year that many already had imagined going into this process. None of the potential GMs sugarcoated the situation in Flushing.
“I think it’s being a realist, and understanding where we’re at, and I think it’s been very healthy, the conversation we’ve had,” Wilpon said. “I think they’ve all been kind to Omar [Minaya] in terms of their comments about him. But I think they also realize that we’ve made some less-than-perfect decisions and have to move forward.”
Wilpon also insisted that the Mets are “looking at this as a search for a GM” with no intention of hiring any of these candidates for another role within the organization. Once the GM position is filled, Wilpon said that person will then work with Ricco to hire a manager.
The Mets have yet to contact any managerial candidates, according to Wilpon, and they claim to have no concerns about other teams already moving briskly to fill their own vacancies. The Braves introduced Fredi Gonzalez Wednesday as the replacement for Bobby Cox and the Marlins, Pirates, Blue Jays, Mariners, Cubs and Brewers have begun the process.
“We’ve heard a number of names like we thought we would – different than what we might have had on our internal list – that are out there,” Wilpon said. “So nobody’s worried about timing on anything going on outside of our situation.”
The Mets still are waiting on permission to speak with more candidates – they did not say any specific names – with Dodgers assistant GM Logan White scheduled to follow Alderson Friday. But the team plans to begin interviewing the finalists by the end of next week, which is when principal owner Fred Wilpon and president Saul Katz will get involved in the process.
Jeff Wilpon and Ricco said they were encouraged by the exchange of ideas, but when asked if any of the GMs had a plan to turn around the Mets quickly, Wilpon hedged a bit.
“I think there were slightly different perceptions,” Wilpon said, “But nothing that anybody said, ‘Oh my God’ we don’t want to take on this challenge and we don’t think that this is going to be a great turnaround.”
Wilpon said he also discussed with the candidates his reputation as being overly involved with the baseball operations because “it was out there.” As for how that conversation went, Wilpon deferred to Ricco.
‘We’ve raised it in the context of their past experience and how it compares to the setup here,” Ricco said. “What we’ve found is universally similar across the board. What they describe and what we have here is pretty much standard for the industry.’ “
saltygary
10/14/2010-8:37am at 8:37 am (UTC -4)
Nice dig by Frenchy quoted in the Daily News:
“Between Omar, Jerry and Jeff, they gave me the opportunity to come over here and play and I can’t thank them enough,” said Francoeur, who had a key run-scoring double in Game 1. “I’m having a blast over here.
“I always wanted to know what it was like to play meaningful baseball in New York and I’m going to have the opportunity.”
“I’m happy in this role here,” Francoeur said. “There’s a lot of blue-collar types here. They’re about baseball and winning.”
GravediggerHebner
10/14/2010-11:59am at 11:59 am (UTC -4)
I saw this quote from a different source yesterday with a subtle but important difference:
“I always wanted to know what it was like to play [October] baseball in New York and I’m going to have the opportunity.”
I wonder which is accurate, or if both are and were given to different reporters in different interviews/settings?
kistics
10/14/2010-8:44am at 8:44 am (UTC -4)
This is OT, but sounds like a good news to the Mets on Taka.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/10/mets-rumors-gm-manager-takahashi.html
If anything, the Mets will have somewhat reliable closer outside of KRod.
stickguy
10/14/2010-10:14am at 10:14 am (UTC -4)
If, as that piece speculates, he will sign for 2 years, $5mill total, then wrap him up before he changes his mind.
kistics
10/14/2010-10:38am at 10:38 am (UTC -4)
I agree. I don’t think that’s a bad signing at all at 2/$5M. I think Feliciano got paid $2.9M this season. I think Taka has had similar value as Feliciano if not greater.
GravediggerHebner
10/14/2010-12:00pm at 12:00 pm (UTC -4)
Not a fan of the comedian who popularized it but his phrase seems appropriate here: “Git ‘r dun.”
metsfan4decades
10/14/2010-12:09pm at 12:09 pm (UTC -4)
Agree.
kistics
10/14/2010-9:33am at 9:33 am (UTC -4)
Also it sounds like Bobby V withdrew his candidacy as the next Marlins manager. Do you think he wasn’t happy with the $$/years/team personnel? Or waiting for the Mets to approach him?
I think if he wanted more $$/years, he would not officially withdraw his candidacy and leverage Marlins/other team’s offers. So it sounds more like he’s not happy with where the team is going and/or he wants to manage elsewhere. Still it’s a pretty good new for pro-Bobby V Mets fans.
Prismo
10/14/2010-9:44am at 9:44 am (UTC -4)
It could very well be that the Marlins’ upper management was torn on “if they can work with him,” like they were last year. Maybe he just didn’t want to even have a chance of having to deal with that.
kistics
10/14/2010-10:07am at 10:07 am (UTC -4)
Whatever the case maybe, this could be a good news as Bobby V still wants to manage and if the Mets & the new GM want him, I can’t see why it couldn’t work.
oleosmirf
10/14/2010-10:53am at 10:53 am (UTC -4)
why would those 2 agree to something like that. makes no sense for Hahn or Alderson.
stickguy
10/14/2010-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
sure it does. Alderson is smart enough to realize how big of a job it is to remake and then run an organization top to bottom, while also being a 24/7 GM and having to deal with roster, talent, contracts, etc.
ANd for Hahn, it is a promotion to GM (and more money), without having to take on that extra piece right away. Instead, he can develop as the GM,knowing that in a few years Alderson should be truning the reigns over to him. The guy is 62 already.
So, Hahn gets to be the man (a GM), but has a mentor in place to handle some of the messy stuff, and by the time he takes over full control, the mess should be cleaned up.
Same situation that happened in Philly. Gillick was technically the GM, but he was much more of a Sr. VP type, with his assistants doing the GM duties day to day, and being groomed to take over (well, 1 took over, the other got screwed out of a job!)
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-11:15am at 11:15 am (UTC -4)
Well it doesn’t really matter since the story seems to be shot down by ownership for now at least.
stickguy
10/14/2010-11:30am at 11:30 am (UTC -4)
entirely possible that they are trying to plug the leak after the fact, but we shall see. Mack gives the impression of taking his reporting seriously, not like some of these tweet heads that just seem to post anything that pops into their head.
Besides, he said he had 2 independant sources confirming it before he posted, and that one of them backpedaled. So there was still 1 source, and something behind it!
I also don’t beleive anything that ownership says at this point, but that is a different issue. Frnakly, they should not be talking at all during the search. Go dark, and wiat until they have something to announce. THese updates can’t really be helping the process.
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-11:39am at 11:39 am (UTC -4)
I don’t know Mack from a hole in the wall so I can’t say Mack’s sources are unreliable or not but I definitely wont put Mack above anyone else’s reportings that use unnamed sources.
Like Heyman and Rubin and Olney if it turns out to be true and it happens Mack will be the 1st to break it and will further his rep in the blogosphere and if not well then he is like all the otherrs that post according to unnamed sources that the sources wind up being inaccurate.
TRS86
10/14/2010-11:41am at 11:41 am (UTC -4)
Here’s my question. If it proves to be inaccurate what damage does it do to his reputation or blog? Nothing. That is the danger that I constantly speak of and you rip me for. LOL>
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-11:43am at 11:43 am (UTC -4)
I must of missed something what are you talking about?
TRS86
10/14/2010-11:44am at 11:44 am (UTC -4)
Don’t you usually rip me for my distrust and trust of the media?
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-11:51am at 11:51 am (UTC -4)
I am literally trying my best to understand how what I just said has anything to do with what I have discussed with you in the past and I am at a loss cause I don’t see a connection.
I guess if you could be more specific and refresh my memory as to what i said then maybe I can better reply.
Right now I simply dont see the connection
TRS86
10/14/2010-11:51am at 11:51 am (UTC -4)
No biggie.
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-11:52am at 11:52 am (UTC -4)
good…
TRS86
10/14/2010-11:54am at 11:54 am (UTC -4)
Lets forget the last sentence and focus on the question.
What danger is there in inaccurate reporting in today’s media?
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-11:56am at 11:56 am (UTC -4)
-sigh
No let’s not forget the last sentence.
TRS86
10/14/2010-11:59am at 11:59 am (UTC -4)
Uh? OK. A simple I don’t want to answer that one would work. LOL.
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-12:01pm at 12:01 pm (UTC -4)
Sure, whatever it takes to move beyond it.
I don’t want to answer that one.
In case you want it in spanish.
Yo no quiero contestar esa pregunta.
GravediggerHebner
10/14/2010-12:10pm at 12:10 pm (UTC -4)
In a general sense I think the danger of inaccurate reporting is the resulting lack of trust.
I know I treat blogs, national reporters, and beat reporters a little differently in this regard.
The blog I trust the least to begin with and the beat reporter I trust the most, with the national reporter somewhere in between.
When the blog reports something that turns out false for me that has a more lasting negative impact. Any subsequent time that blog reports something I am very skeptical.
When beat reporters report something I trust them the most as they are engaged with the team most directly most often. If they report something that turns out to be wrong it’s unfortunate but I also know this is a person who, as long as they hold their job, is going to remain closest to the team so by virtue of contact I am going to continue to listen to what they report while being very careful to parse their words to be sure I understand to the best of my ability what it is they are actually saying.
The national guys are often, in my opinion, reporting incorrect information and precisely why that is I don’t know but I can guess it has something to do with a lack of regular direct contact.
In all cases I don’t keep a list but rather just try to rely on my subjective and somewhat faulty memory in terms of who to believe going forward.
Unless/until someone keeps a thorough list of “he said” and “exactly how he said it” this is the best I can do.
In summary I can’t pass any final judgment on what Mack reported yesterday because the situation is still fluid. If next week the Mets announce an Alderson-Hahn pairing at best Mack nailed it, at worst he made a lucky guess, and I will give more credence to any future reporting by him. If next week the Mets announce they hired Logan White as their GM than Mack was completely wrong and I will give less credence to any future reporting by him. And so on.
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-12:15pm at 12:15 pm (UTC -4)
Damn Grave, You have a gift at articulating your thoughts so well.
You really do.
TRS86
10/14/2010-12:22pm at 12:22 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks Grave.
My point is that to me you have to use your best judgment and for the most part in today’s media I have to pick and choose what I believe and what I do not.
metsfan4decades
10/14/2010-12:12pm at 12:12 pm (UTC -4)
I’m getting a little tired of reading across the blogsphere that 62 is old. Dang. I know it seems old when you’re 25 but the closer you get to 62, the younger it seems. Take my word for it. LOL.
I agree though in that if they were to go ahead with this ‘two headed’ signing, if Alderson envisions himself setting up a successful model then handing over the reigns to his heir apparent, it makes some sense. He might be of the mindset of once he does that, he’s outta there.
hazmet
10/14/2010-12:50pm at 12:50 pm (UTC -4)
Ditto all that. LOL.
When I approach 62, god willing, I hope to have announced in a blog so I can trick myself into believing it’s inacurate and I’m actually on 42. Or maybe I’ll just go and get me one of those Dominican Birth Certiificates to make me feel better.
I’ve enjoyed all the fine writings these past weeks but I can’t get wrapped around much till anything happens. While Alderson-Hahn would be a dream team scenario I’ll believe when I see it. Until then I think the Met’s just also contacted the guy in the office cube next to me for an interview. At some point too many candidates is not a good thing imo. Alright, back to hibernation for Haz.
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-12:54pm at 12:54 pm (UTC -4)
LoL you sure they were not trying to reach your cube and were just given the wrong extension?
TRS86
10/14/2010-11:52am at 11:52 am (UTC -4)
Hey ole blog has some new commenters.
One has us trading for Jar Jar, Garza and signing Crawford. Nice!
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-11:57am at 11:57 am (UTC -4)
Who is Jar Jar again?
TRS86
10/14/2010-11:58am at 11:58 am (UTC -4)
Jair Jurrjens.
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-11:59am at 11:59 am (UTC -4)
ahh
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-12:02pm at 12:02 pm (UTC -4)
Has Jurrjens ever been even mentioned as a trade possibility?
TRS86
10/14/2010-12:24pm at 12:24 pm (UTC -4)
http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/236810-braves-to-move-jurrjens?eref=sihp
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-12:27pm at 12:27 pm (UTC -4)
Interesting I find it hard to believe they would seek to trade good pitching but they did trade Vasquez away last Winter.
GravediggerHebner
10/14/2010-12:27pm at 12:27 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t know for sure but it sounds reasonable to me. The Braves have Lowe, Hudson, Kawakami, Jurrjens, Hanson, Medlen & Minor under contract going forward and could seek to move a starter to fix their questionable offense.
Jurrjens is a Scott Boras client and is just reaching arbitration so is likely to start getting more expensive. Medlen or Minor should be able to step in more cheaply.
Without thinking deeply about it though I don’t see a match up between the Mets and Braves for Jurrjens.
TRS86
10/14/2010-12:32pm at 12:32 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah obviously given the choice I think they trade Lowe BUT that does nothing for the offense and I am not sure there would be enough money saved to make it work.
kistics
10/14/2010-1:08pm at 1:08 pm (UTC -4)
Is it me or are the Bravos really good at producing/discovering good young pitching prospects? During past couple seasons they have
Hanson
Jurrjens (though he struggled this season)
Medlin
Minor
Venters
O’Flaherty
Kimbrel
Dunn
etc
I know some are not exactly home grown, but it’s amazing how many good pitching talent they have. Or am I completely off base here?
TRS86
10/14/2010-1:14pm at 1:14 pm (UTC -4)
That’s always been the Braves for most of my baseball fanhood.
kistics
10/14/2010-1:21pm at 1:21 pm (UTC -4)
So what are they doing right? If you can produce that type of prospects with the Mets payroll, it would be immortal!
metsfan4decades
10/14/2010-1:01pm at 1:01 pm (UTC -4)
He had injury problems this year, right? I think that’s what they attributed his ‘less than best’ year to.
I don’t remember what those injuries were though – how series.
The more I keep reading about injuries to young pitchers across MLB, and even the minors – the more I think everyone ought to keep their eye on the Rangers system and the mindset they’ve adopted with their young pitchers.
To hear them tell it, they’re going fix the problem thereby making sure most pitchers coming out of their system remain mostly injury free, able to pitch deep into games and able to go on 4 days rest. Rangers want to have a 4 man rotation, not 5.
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-12:23pm at 12:23 pm (UTC -4)
Has anyone read Amazin Avenure post about knowing your enemies? If so care to share any opinions on it?
http://www.amazinavenue.com/2010/10/14/1747849/learning-from-your-enemies-part-2-what-was-their-plan
TRS86
10/14/2010-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
Opinion? Hard to come up with one. I think the Mets comparisons were a stretch at best and the generalizations did not work for me. Looks like they did work hard to produce the piece it just did not do anything for me.
GravediggerHebner
10/14/2010-12:53pm at 12:53 pm (UTC -4)
I have to first admit my bias here. I really like Eno. I mean just like with all of you I’ve never actually met him or even spoken to him, I just know him over the internet, but what I’ve learned that way I like. He’s always been really nice and fair with me in any interaction I’ve had with him. I share some similar music likes with him (he’s named after Brian Eno) and he’s given me some good fantasy baseball advice.
So that out of the way I agree with what I think I just read here from TRS & Mr. NJ that I felt the Mets comparisons were a bit of a stretch. As I was reading it my mind began to wander to “you could probably pick a team out of a hat and make similar rough comparisons.”
But I know Eno is a Mets fan and I think he’s just trying to use some knowledge of the recent history of a rival to make a comparison to show promise for his favorite team.
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-12:56pm at 12:56 pm (UTC -4)
Good observation.
rustyjr
10/14/2010-1:45pm at 1:45 pm (UTC -4)
Do the strain !
metsfan4decades
10/14/2010-12:58pm at 12:58 pm (UTC -4)
I read part 1 of that series – haven’t had time to read part 2 yet.
I find it interesting but just assumed it was just one of the ideas AA had going into the winter to keep fresh posts going up after the season ended.
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-1:01pm at 1:01 pm (UTC -4)
Even though that it does deal with Phillie comparisons I think u may find it interesting 4D.
metsfan4decades
10/14/2010-1:24pm at 1:24 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, part 1 was Philly comparisons too. I did read that. Just haven’t had time to read through all of part 2 yet.
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-12:38pm at 12:38 pm (UTC -4)
I find the Mets comparisons hard to accept but they did a good job imo in trying to do so.
The lessons learned that they use I think are things we have all heard before but again using events from the past to explain it was interesting also.
Lessons like.
Deal from surplus to fill needs. Any fantasy owner could tell you the same.
Don’t spend a ton of resources on the bullpen, but do spend some attention on it.
Don’t muck around with your exciting young starters (like Jenrry Mejia)
Keep the long-term plan in mind, cut bait on short-term assets relatively quickly, and don’t overpay when acquiring short-term assets. AND: Give young guys a shot if they seem ready and the team is struggling (a corollary to keeping the long-term plan in mind).
Back-of-the-rotation starters are fungible – keep the years and dollar signs as low as possible and move on once things don’t work out.
Buy low on players that have shown promise even if they are somewhat flawed.
Sign your cornerstones before they hit the free market.
All good things to keep in mind I suppose but like many things in life some are easy to say and hard to do.
TRS86
10/14/2010-12:48pm at 12:48 pm (UTC -4)
But again I think the comparisons and even assessing how the Phillies did these things were a stretch.
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-12:52pm at 12:52 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t necessarily disagree I am just saying while that may be the case they did do a good job imo at attempting to make the comparison.
GravediggerHebner
10/14/2010-1:00pm at 1:00 pm (UTC -4)
Yes what I got from reading both parts is that he took what are to many of us obvious, basic thought processes that we think a major league front office should have, as you noted Mr. NJ such as “dealing from surplus” and the like, and put specific players and transactions to those general themes to illuminate them.
Specifically regarding the “dealing from surplus” thing this is why while I feel the Mets system has improved it still has a ways to go because until the Mets develop depth at one or more positions they lack this surplus. The Mets have no Ryan Howard/Jim Thome (or more recently and slightly opposite in that the veteran was kept while the young player was dealt) no young catcher whose name I’m forgetting/Joe Mauer situation in which the Twins peddled a young talented player that was blocked to fill a need in their bullpen.
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-1:04pm at 1:04 pm (UTC -4)
Would it be fair to say the closest thing to depth would be OF?
Maybe trading a Pagan with FMart and Capt Kirk on the horizon?
TRS86
10/14/2010-1:07pm at 1:07 pm (UTC -4)
I was thinking Beltran as you can see below. Pagan does not fit the mold of an older established star for sure. As for trading from depth I would guess you could say Pagan but neither Fmart nor Kirk are anywhere near the door yet much less knocking loudly.
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-1:10pm at 1:10 pm (UTC -4)
Hard to argue against what you just said. I guess then as Grave suggests the Mets still has a ways to go at developing depth.
TRS86
10/14/2010-1:08pm at 1:08 pm (UTC -4)
What about Murphy, Evans, Duda, Carter? Not much return for sure but to me have similar qualities.
TRS86
10/14/2010-1:04pm at 1:04 pm (UTC -4)
Perhaps dealing Beltran and handing over CF to Pagan full-time but it’s hard to compare Pagan to Howard.
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-1:07pm at 1:07 pm (UTC -4)
True but I don’t think the idea is to compare them but rather just ways to improve the team using depth.
TRS86
10/14/2010-1:12pm at 1:12 pm (UTC -4)
True. I guess Pagan and Beltran could still fit this mold
“The Phillies had long had Ryan Howard knocking on the door at first base, and when he performed well late in the 2005 season while Jim Thome was hurt – 2.3 WAR, 22 HR, .288/.356/.667 in 348 PA – it became obvious what had to be done.”
Prismo
10/14/2010-12:58pm at 12:58 pm (UTC -4)
They point out how the Phillies haven’t overpaid for relievers, but they spent nearly $12MM per year on a long-term contract for Lidge. Uhhhhhhhhhh.
I realize the Mets spent *more*, but 12 mil isn’t what most teams would spend on a reliever.
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-1:16pm at 1:16 pm (UTC -4)
I think another example of Grave’s comment about the Mets lack of depth is looking at Ike Davis. Here is a kid many teams asked for but because we simply have no depth at 1B could not trade him.
TRS86
10/14/2010-1:22pm at 1:22 pm (UTC -4)
True but that being said I am not sure most teams have that kind of depth. If we really do believe he is the starter of the future. I guess you could count Murphy as that kind of depth if he had been healthy.
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-1:25pm at 1:25 pm (UTC -4)
but i think u r missing Graves point TRS.
He is refering to quality depth that you can build from. similar to the example he used with the Twins when the young catcher.
I don’t think Murphy is what I would call quality depth.
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-1:26pm at 1:26 pm (UTC -4)
I meant 2 say “with the young catcher”
TRS86
10/14/2010-1:35pm at 1:35 pm (UTC -4)
Not sure. I think that Murphy would be considered quality depth but not star depth. He did start at 1B and did not do terrible at the position and I think he would have been the starter most of this season if not hurt.
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-1:43pm at 1:43 pm (UTC -4)
Well clearly your opinion of Murphy is way higher than mine.
Still at the risk of repeating myself once more Grave’s point was that he felt the Mets still need a surplus of depth at 1 position that they could build from and as an example he said the Mets dont have, “no young catcher whose name I’m forgetting/Joe Mauer situation in which the Twins peddled a young talented player that was blocked to fill a need in their bullpen.”
Murphy to me is not a player the Mets can use to build from that teams covet.
TRS86
10/14/2010-1:47pm at 1:47 pm (UTC -4)
No he does not fit that exact mold but to me he is depth. Again how long do you think it would have taken Ike to come up and start at 1B IF Murphy had been healthy and even putting up the numbers he did the year before much less assuming some normal progression? If the Mets were winning in late July and Murphy was still the starting 1B don’t you think Ike would have been much more tradable?
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-1:52pm at 1:52 pm (UTC -4)
I think we are getting sidetracked here into something else and I don’t wish to debate a what if of Murphy having played good or not.
I only wish to say that the Grave’s point was the Mets need to build a surplus of depth in which to trade from.
GravediggerHebner
10/14/2010-2:05pm at 2:05 pm (UTC -4)
I guess the best way I can put what I was trying to say above is that there are various levels of depth. Clearly the Mets and every organization literally have bodies they can bring up to stand at every position.
The kind of depth the Mets don’t yet have is that which is widely acknowledged/accepted both within and without the organization as able to step in and provide similar production if not greater production than what is currently there in the context of what already is there being very good and thus an asset to begin with.
Having someone in house to come up and be “as good as Luis Castillo” for example well that doesn’t help a whole lot. When the Mets have “the next” Ike Davis, or David Wright, or Jose Reyes, or Carlos Beltran, like the Phillies had the next Jim Thome and the Twins had the next Joe Mauer, then they will be in the position to seriously improve their long term viability.
TRS86
10/14/2010-2:07pm at 2:07 pm (UTC -4)
Right and my point was that they had that in Davis/Murphy if Murphy were healthy they could have either traded Davis for a very good piece or traded Murphy for a bullpen piece.
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-2:07pm at 2:07 pm (UTC -4)
Thank you for expanding. I was beginning to think i had misunderstood your earlier comments.
TRS86
10/14/2010-1:31pm at 1:31 pm (UTC -4)
Question, if Murphy were healthy would you say we had as much “depth” at 1B than anywhere else? We might have even with Murphy injured.
1B Murphy, Evans, Duda, Davis, Jacobs, to start the season. (I can’t really count Tatis)
2B Castillo, Tejada? Can’t really count Cora in my mind.
SS Reyes and uh.. Tejada.
3B Wright and uh well help me out
C Hot Rod, Blanco, Santos, Thole
LF Bay, Pagan, Evans, Duda
CF Beltran, Pagan, GMJR (I really don’t want to count him)
RF Frenchy, Pagan, Evans, Duda
I am sure I missed some. To me we had as much depth at 1B as we did really anywhere else.
kistics
10/14/2010-1:34pm at 1:34 pm (UTC -4)
You mean beginning of 2010 season? GMJ and Cat!
TRS86
10/14/2010-1:37pm at 1:37 pm (UTC -4)
To me I did not count Cat, Cora or Tatis as depth at all as their roles in my mind were completely as bench guys.
kistics
10/14/2010-1:48pm at 1:48 pm (UTC -4)
hey Cat was batting 4th in my book. Frank “Versatile” Cat!
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-1:35pm at 1:35 pm (UTC -4)
I think there is a chance I may be misunderstanding Grave’s point regarding depth but I think again he was referring to quality depth where you can build from.
Murphy, Evans, Duda, Davis, Jacobs are not what I think he was referring to.
TRS86
10/14/2010-1:39pm at 1:39 pm (UTC -4)
To me if Murphy was healthy and the Mets were actually in the race it would have allowed you the depth to trade Davis. I also think that the Mets may have also taken the route of is there a guy that we can trade for using Davis that will actually make that much of a difference this year and long term.
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-1:46pm at 1:46 pm (UTC -4)
Assuming Murphy was so productive at 1B that the Mets could trade Davis I can see your point. I just have a hard time believing Murphy would ever be that good.
TRS86
10/14/2010-1:48pm at 1:48 pm (UTC -4)
He did not have to be great to be counted as depth. Just holding his own. Again, I think you have to factor in how long it would have taken Ike to take Murphy’s spot AND if the Mets were in a position to make a trade that made a difference in late July.
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-1:54pm at 1:54 pm (UTC -4)
I will just reiterate what I said above.
I think we are getting sidetracked here into something else and I don’t wish to debate a what if of Murphy having played good or not.
I only wish to say that the Grave’s point was the Mets need to build a surplus of depth in which to trade from.
TRS86
10/14/2010-1:59pm at 1:59 pm (UTC -4)
I think we are on track here. I think that Murphy if healthy could have allowed us to either trade Davis for a very good piece OR trade Murphy for bullpen depth.
TRS86
10/14/2010-1:57pm at 1:57 pm (UTC -4)
Ike: .264 .351 .440 .791 19 HR, 33 2B, 71 RBI 138 K’s 601 PA.
Dan: .266 .313 .427 .741 12 HR, 38 2B, 63 RBI, 69 K’s 556 PA 2009
Dan Career: 275 .331 .437 .768
I think Davis has MUCH more potential but Murphy was not far off from producing similar results.
GravediggerHebner
10/14/2010-2:09pm at 2:09 pm (UTC -4)
I think your offensive comparison is valid but even you acknowledge the important factor of Davis having “MUCH more potential” which can’t be ignored and also in the case of these two specifically I don’t think defense can be ignored either. Murphy did display some seemingly very good defense in his trial at 1B but that was a terribly small sample and has nothing to back it up like Davis has his MiLB and college work to back up his 1B defense being good.
So ultimately in my opinion you may have hit on the best example of the Mets depth but further in my opinion it’s an example of the Mets depth problems more than Mets depth solutions.
TRS86
10/14/2010-2:12pm at 2:12 pm (UTC -4)
Perhaps, again my point is still that a healthy Murphy would have allowed the Mets depth to trade. Either Murphy for BP piece or Davis for an impact player.
GravediggerHebner
10/14/2010-2:20pm at 2:20 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t disagree with that concept I’m just looking for/hoping for/waiting for greater depth than “Murphy for a bullpen piece.” I think if the Mets had sought to add a bullpen piece they had plenty to trade to acquire one with or without Murphy. Looking at it the other way personally I don’t find Murphy satisfactory enough that I’m going to trade Ike and plug in Murphy but I am guessing we disagree on that point based on the fact that you brought Murphy up to begin with so on that perhaps we’ll have to agree to disagree because I would rather not get into a “prove Murphy’s value” discussion today.
kistics
10/14/2010-1:37pm at 1:37 pm (UTC -4)
I’m not sure if Duda was ever considered as a “prospect” until he showed some pop this season.
metsfan4decades
10/14/2010-1:37pm at 1:37 pm (UTC -4)
I thought Evans was primarily a corner IF player in the minors – 3rd then later 1st. I could be wrong.
Missing FMart on that list.
You know what jumps out at me with this list – concerning those not established at the major league level?
Outside of Davis – and only the starting out in 2010 Davis…all the rest outside of maybe Fmart project to be mostly back up, utility players or the jury is still out on (like Duda).
I don’t even think until late 2010 they were set on Thole being an everyday catcher.
Nowhere in this list
metsfan4decades
10/14/2010-1:39pm at 1:39 pm (UTC -4)
Shoot….got cut off for some reason…
I was going to say nowhere on this list do we seem to have good, minlor league players established at a position as heir apparents – like Ryan Howard was.
Outside of pitching, I don’t remember the last time we saw like a Wright or Reyes type player in the minors just waiting for the opportunity.
TRS86
10/14/2010-1:41pm at 1:41 pm (UTC -4)
True, although most believed that the Phillies had waited too long with Howard. I am not sure it’s normal for a guy to be knocking for that long.
TRS86
10/14/2010-1:44pm at 1:44 pm (UTC -4)
Nick the Stick has played 43 games at 3B and 16 of those came this year while 21 came his first year in 2004.
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-1:23pm at 1:23 pm (UTC -4)
Whatever happened to Metro? Seems like ages ago since he last was seen.
kistics
10/14/2010-1:30pm at 1:30 pm (UTC -4)
Metro went underground…
sorry…
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-1:31pm at 1:31 pm (UTC -4)
2 bad i miss his minor league reports
kistics
10/14/2010-1:32pm at 1:32 pm (UTC -4)
i meant sorry for the corny joke… i’m falling asleep here after lunch.. need to wake myself up..
GravediggerHebner
10/14/2010-1:46pm at 1:46 pm (UTC -4)
As far as I know he still posts here occasionally but he is more active under his real name at http://stlucietoflushing.com/ unless I’m confusing him with someone else.
For example I think this is his work:
http://stlucietoflushing.com/?p=139
I’m pretty sure he wrote for other places before he came to us and I think we are at best just one of many outlets for his work.
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-1:48pm at 1:48 pm (UTC -4)
This is Metro? Why isnt he on our Blog roll then?
Thanks for the link Grave.
GravediggerHebner
10/14/2010-2:15pm at 2:15 pm (UTC -4)
I’m not 100% sure it’s him but someone named Dan Wexler writes for that blog. The primary guy at that blog is Joe DeMayo. and the other main contributor is a Ben Yoel. I follow all 3 guys on twitter.
Why they are not on our blogroll I don’t know. I recall mentioning some potential additions to our blogroll a while back, I can’t remember for sure if theirs was one of them or not, I only remember that I was told that the then impending switch to FVF was a reason why the blogroll was not being added to at that time. Since then I’ve just not really thought about it until you brought it up here.
metsfan4decades
10/14/2010-1:28pm at 1:28 pm (UTC -4)
I read recently at some blog – might have even been AA, that the Mets minor league prospects and depth were dead in the middle of the pack. The Phillies were actually in the top tier.
I was very surprised when I read that. For some reason, I thought we were better than average and I really thought the Phillies had not much coming up in their farm system outside of Dom Brown. Obviously, I have no idea where I got that from. I do remember the article saying the Phillies lower level minors had some very good rated prospects while the Mets had ‘eh’….
rustyjr
10/14/2010-1:51pm at 1:51 pm (UTC -4)
Ok folks I see I will have to publish a new column tonight – look here around 7 pm
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-2:08pm at 2:08 pm (UTC -4)
On a different note. Does anyone think the Mets will release a statement today after meeting with Alderson?
GravediggerHebner
10/14/2010-2:18pm at 2:18 pm (UTC -4)
My guess would be no. Have they released statements after the interviews with Baird, Hahn and the other guy whose name escapes me? If they did I missed them.
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-2:26pm at 2:26 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t believe so but they also didnt announce that they were interviewing them through twitter also like the way they did with alderson. at least that is what i recall.
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-2:31pm at 2:31 pm (UTC -4)
We need a rain out in the Texas series to possibly push up Lee to pitch in Game 2. Prismo what are the chances of such a thing happening?
stickguy
10/14/2010-2:43pm at 2:43 pm (UTC -4)
you guys been busy keeping this thread alive for this long.
I did read those AA pieces. Interesting and well thought out. IMO, Beltran is about the closest anaogy to THome that we actually have, although certainly the young blocked player is no where near the same talent level.
Maybe in a year or 2 bay would fit that role vs. some of the MiL OFs?
His remarks though about basic rules to follow did seem like GM 101 (FO for dummies?), but also stuff that Omar didn’t care much for!
but to a large extent, the Phils had good fortune (not luck) to have 4 prospects all click and reach their high potential at the same tiem, and to stay that way for a long stretch, thus giving them that top core to build on. And that doesn’t come along all that often (hell, the yankees are still mikling theirs fromt he late 90s!)
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-2:46pm at 2:46 pm (UTC -4)
We r dying for something new and engaging to talk about Stick.
Any help to that end will be appreciated.
stickguy
10/14/2010-3:06pm at 3:06 pm (UTC -4)
so much pressure though to be deep and profound.
CaseStreet
10/14/2010-3:08pm at 3:08 pm (UTC -4)
Speaking of two headed monsters, anyone have ideas for Thole’s platoon-mate?
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-3:09pm at 3:09 pm (UTC -4)
Molina?
stickguy
10/14/2010-3:11pm at 3:11 pm (UTC -4)
can you narrow that down a little?
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-3:12pm at 3:12 pm (UTC -4)
Bengie
stickguy
10/14/2010-3:21pm at 3:21 pm (UTC -4)
Hmm. I haven’t paid much attention, but is he at the point of being a 1-2 game/week back up now? Certainly qualifies to be Thole’s mentor based on experience.
Mr North Jersey
10/14/2010-3:25pm at 3:25 pm (UTC -4)
Good question. Top of my head I can’t say but isn’t Benjie up there in age where he may not be an everyday player?
stickguy
10/14/2010-3:11pm at 3:11 pm (UTC -4)
not sure who all is out there on the market, but I don’t think Blanco is the best fit if he really can only play 1 game per week. And pass on the former guys (castro, santos, rod).
Probably going to be tough getting someone good though for a back up gig.
or, they could always Free Zapata!