Nov 10
Video: Kerel Cooper Discusses Pagan’s Future In Outfield
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35 comments
GravediggerHebner
11/10/2010-12:10pm at 12:10 pm (UTC -4)
Hijack! http://tinyurl.com/2up4hyu
metsfan4decades
11/10/2010-12:24pm at 12:24 pm (UTC -4)
Um, I still don’t understand why Pagan’s bat would be O.K. for CF but not for RF.
Yes, in a perfect lineup the ‘traditional’ positions would be a heavy bat. However, if it’s Pagan and Beltran to start the season and Pagan is in CF, Beltran in RF, why is Pagan’s bat considered acceptable for CF but not if the positions played were reversed?
If we do hold on to both through the entire 2011 season, I can see looking for a more traditional power hitting bat for RF for 2012 (especially if the FMart mindset for starting RF in ’12 is over).
stickguy
11/10/2010-12:25pm at 12:25 pm (UTC -4)
because you can find a lot of RFs that hit better than Pagan. Far fewer to play CF.
metsfan4decades
11/10/2010-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
O.K., I can understand that.
But a healthy Beltran in CF would negate that immediate need this year for a power hitting RF, wouldn’t it?
So many scenarios to be played out right now but I’ll be surprised if Beltran and Pagan are not on the Opening Day roster. After that, it’s all going to depend on how things play out first half of the year.
GravediggerHebner
11/10/2010-1:41pm at 1:41 pm (UTC -4)
I subscribe to what I perceive is your school of thought on this MF4D, what’s most important is that the lineup as a whole functions usefully and well, not what defensive position each player gives that production from.
The sum of the parts is what either works or doesn’t. A team does not have to achieve that sum by getting certain offensive categories filled by a RF, just by getting them filled.
Ceetar
11/10/2010-1:31pm at 1:31 pm (UTC -4)
show me one, that’s low cost? The Mets tried all sorts of grabs at a corner outfield spot, and couldn’t come up with one. Alou, Murphy, Sean Green.. no one was worth the investment when we have a contributing Pagan.
And then there is long term. 2012 if you’re letting Beltran go you have Pagan to play center ,versus hoping one of our prospects pans out.
oleosmirf
11/10/2010-1:34pm at 1:34 pm (UTC -4)
while you are 100% correct, if you can package Pagan in a deal to get a SP like Garza then you have to make that move even if it leaves a hole in the OF
TRS86
11/10/2010-1:38pm at 1:38 pm (UTC -4)
Right but Pagan is not bringing you a Garza type pitcher unless he is just part of the filler. You are going to have to give up some serious talent besides Pagan.
oleosmirf
11/10/2010-1:51pm at 1:51 pm (UTC -4)
you would think so but as we Mets fan know all too well, GMs do make dumb moves sometimes…
TRS86
11/10/2010-1:55pm at 1:55 pm (UTC -4)
They do, but not as much any more. Not mistakes involving mid to upper rotation pitchers anyway.
stickguy
11/10/2010-2:25pm at 2:25 pm (UTC -4)
Garza is a nice pitcher, but he is not an Ace level guy.
In 3 years as a regular, his ERA+ was 119, 110, 101. So, it has dropped ~ 8% each year, and 101 is about average.
Note, I get confused sometimes which stats are scaled how, but I believe that 100 is average, not replacement level. But I have no clue what average is!
actually, I can tell you exactly who Garza is. at basically the same ages, 3 years of 122, 110, 101 (basically a mirror image).
That my friends is John maine before he blew out his shoulder. So you tell me what you would have traded a still healthy maine for after 2008, and that is what Garza should bring.
oleosmirf
11/10/2010-3:50pm at 3:50 pm (UTC -4)
sure we need an ace to compete this season but i could care less about this season, a 2012 rotation of Santana, Garza, Pelfrey, Niese, Dickey/Harvey/Mejia is extremely good.
TRS86
11/10/2010-1:37pm at 1:37 pm (UTC -4)
Her point is that regardless if if Beltran is playing RF and Pagan CF or the reverse it’s still Beltran and Pagan in the batting order. Does not matter what spot they are playing on defense.
metsfan4decades
11/10/2010-1:55pm at 1:55 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, that’s my point.
Exactly what Grave answered above as well.
I understand the ‘traditional’ roles for positions but if you’ve got the offense, what difference does it matter if it’s not in the ‘traditional’ fielding positions?
stickguy
11/10/2010-2:15pm at 2:15 pm (UTC -4)
it doesnt matter where they are playing. But the logic is simple. You want as much offense as possible. So if you can reasonably get more at a position, you do it.
having a fantastic hitting C to me is a bonus, and an advantage to the team, but you give away the advantage if you are below average at positions that are traditionally good hitting spots.
oleosmirf
11/10/2010-12:58pm at 12:58 pm (UTC -4)
well unless the Mets are something like 10+ games over .500 or Beltran is hurt/bad when the deadline comes around then Beltran will be traded. hopefully at least one of F-Mart or Kirk would play themselves onto the MLB roster and they get a few months under their belt in the MLB before the 2012 season.
kistics
11/10/2010-1:07pm at 1:07 pm (UTC -4)
Hope this is the last straw of Mets dark age.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2010/11/10/2010-11-10_sources_samuels_was_in_deep.html
GravediggerHebner
11/10/2010-1:44pm at 1:44 pm (UTC -4)
I doubt the Phillies are freaking out about the lack of “prototypical” 3B production from Placido Polanco.
TRS86
11/10/2010-1:54pm at 1:54 pm (UTC -4)
3B is not what it used to be. LOL.
I understand Sticks point however it does not always work that way. If you are getting great CF stats and below average RF stats then imagine how much better you would be with great CF and above league average RF stats. However, it does not work that way when you don’t have Yankee money to throw around.
oleosmirf
11/10/2010-2:08pm at 2:08 pm (UTC -4)
I think its safe to say the Mets are above average at SS, 3B, LF, CF, RF and C. We have a good prospect at 1B so that isnt a problem. The only problem with our lineup is 2B.
While we cant spend that much on the position, i find it hard to believe the best we can do by ST is Luis Castillo or Ruben Tejada.
metsfan4decades
11/10/2010-2:14pm at 2:14 pm (UTC -4)
Are we really above average for catcher? I’d like to believe Thole will have a good OPS going forward but I think it’s a small sample size yet. Plus…who is the backup catcher in ’11?
Mr North Jersey
11/10/2010-2:17pm at 2:17 pm (UTC -4)
you see that is the problem in my opinion. you look at the team on paper rather than on the field.
On paper you may be right but it doesn’t mean it will translate well on the field.
oleosmirf
11/10/2010-2:23pm at 2:23 pm (UTC -4)
well im speaking solely on base of acquiring players. obviously things change once the game starts but there is no need to upgrade any position except 2B.
stickguy
11/10/2010-2:28pm at 2:28 pm (UTC -4)
That is fair. Everyone knows my opinion on Bay, but even I don’t think there is a snowballs change in hell they can get rid of him. So other than that, the only places you can realistically upgrade are:
catcher (and there is nothing available as a starter that is likely better),
2B (huge upside) and
RF
oleosmirf
11/10/2010-2:40pm at 2:40 pm (UTC -4)
you can’t really claim to upgrade RF given our budget unless you are in the mindset that Pagan will have a big drop in production.
as for me I expect a small drop in production across the board but nothing overwhelming…
stickguy
11/10/2010-2:18pm at 2:18 pm (UTC -4)
catcher is debatable (but I guess it depends on what average actually is). and pagan offensively is not above average in RF.
and in LF, well below average until bay proves that he isn’t done. last year was so far below average that he was probably worth less than Francouer, when you factor in the position played.
oleosmirf
11/10/2010-2:35pm at 2:35 pm (UTC -4)
i was a little premature on the catcher position but first Pagan is only a temporary RF, once Beltran is traded/not resigned, he moves to CF and second, he might not be a traditional corner OF in that sense but i dont think i can name 29 LF or RF i’d rather have instead
GravediggerHebner
11/10/2010-2:58pm at 2:58 pm (UTC -4)
When you say that the Mets are above average at certain positions are you citing some particular source or just your opinion?
The reason I ask is because I have found easy ways on baseball-reference.com to compare defense by position, for example I can on one list how Jeter’s work at SS compares to Andrus and Ramirez and all his competition, which shows me what “average” defense is too, but I don’t see a list like that for offense by position.
oleosmirf
11/10/2010-3:17pm at 3:17 pm (UTC -4)
all im saying is those mets players are among the top 14 players at their position when factoring offense and defense. I shouldnt have included Thole but Reyes, Wright, Bay, Beltran and Pagan are top 14 at their position.
GravediggerHebner
11/10/2010-4:19pm at 4:19 pm (UTC -4)
Ok that’s fair. I was just wondering if there was a list somewhere because if so I’d love to look at it.
Seeing that Jeter was ranked 59th out of 59 people who played SS in the AL on defense was pretty stark and I was hoping their was a similar thing for offense by position.
Ceetar
11/10/2010-3:23pm at 3:23 pm (UTC -4)
so grab me RF.
kistics
11/10/2010-4:00pm at 4:00 pm (UTC -4)
Werth… hehe
wannybackstra
11/10/2010-4:37pm at 4:37 pm (UTC -4)
Neyer gives Pagan and Davis somewhat endoresements in the NL Gold Glove discussion:
In the National League, five of this year’s Gold Gloves went to Cardinals and Reds, and they happen to be arrayed in and around the infield. So let’s start there …
Cincinnati’s Bronson Arroyo throws right-handed, but that doesn’t seem to help the enemy baserunners, who attempted only eight steals — two of them were out, six were safe — during Arroyo’s 216 innings pitched. Also, he didn’t make an error. I don’t know how much credit the voters gave Arroyo for the tiny number of steals against him — they certainly never held the running game against 18-time winner Greg Maddux — but Arroyo seems to be a solid choice.
St. Louis’s Yadier Molina is more than solid. It’s too early to compare Molina to Willie Mays and Ozzie Smith — or, more to the point, Ivan Rodriguez — but the youngest of the Catching Molina Brothers is simply the best catcher in the major leagues when it comes to shutting down the running game. And in this year’s balloting for the Fielding Bible Awards, Molina was the only unanimous winner.
Frankly, St. Louis’s Albert Pujols’ numbers at first base this year weren’t nearly as brilliant as usual. Frankly, they weren’t brilliant at all. But with no real standout in the National League — unless you count Ike Davis, and nobody’s counting the Mets for much of anything in 2010 — it’s hard to argue with Pujols as the default choice. Particularly considering how many times he’s been passed over in the past.
Cincinnati’s Brandon Phillips is a good second baseman. Not a great second baseman, probably. But a good second baseman, good enough where you really can’t be upset when he wins a Gold Glove. This is his second Gold Glove, though. Meanwhile, Chase Utley — who merely had yet another phenomenal season at second base — still has not won even one Gold Glove. Granted, Utley played only 114 games at second this year. But he was still saved more runs than anybody else in the league.
The selection of Cincinnati’s Scott Rolen is … well, it’s unfortunate. Not for Rolen, who picks up his eighth Gold Glove (and first since 2006). But unfortunate mostly for the credibility of the voters, who somehow missed that Ryan Zimmerman deserved to win his second straight Gold Glove. Did the voters really choose the 35-year-old Rolen instead of the 25-year-old Zimmerman because Zimmerman made a few more errors than Rolen? (Yes, that’s a rhetorical question. But the answer is probably yes, they really did.)
We can finally leave the National League Central … though maybe we shouldn’t. I would have voted (and did, in the Fielding Bible balloting) for St. Louis’s Brendan Ryan at shortstop; with Jack Wilson on the shelf for most of the season, I believe that Ryan was the best shortstop in the majors. But Troy Tulowitzki’s obviously an outstanding shortstop, and this shouldn’t be his first Gold Glove.
Colorado’s Carlos Gonzalez pretty obviously won the Gold Glove with his bat. He deserves some credit for playing all three outfield positions, but there’s not much evidence that he played any of them particularly well. Let alone brilliantly. Maybe Gonzalez would have been more impressive if he’d stayed in one place long enough to get comfortable. But they probably shouldn’t hand out Gold Gloves based on maybes.
Philadelphia’s Shane Victorino has a wonderful nickname (The Flyin’ Hawaiian) and he’s won a couple of Gold Gloves before, which apparently is enough for a third. Well, that and the fact that 2010 wasn’t a great year for National League outfielders. The voters could have gone for Angel Pagan, except he’s a Met. They could have gone for Tony Gwynn, except he didn’t play every day. They could have gone for Andres Torres, except he played somewhere different every day. They could have gone for Marlon Byrd, except he’s built like Kirby Puckett but isn’t Kirby Puckett. So they went for Victorino, again. Maybe next year, fellas …
Fortunately, they did go for Houston’s speedy Michael Bourn, who deserves his second straight Gold Glove and will probably keep winning them as long as he hits enough to stay in the lineup.
Summing up … No major errors by the National League voters this time around. But then, it’s hard to really screw this up, because usually your eyes will give you a pretty good idea of who the good fielders are. Unless you’re watching the shortstop in pinstripes.
metsfan4decades
11/10/2010-4:55pm at 4:55 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, but too bad he just wrote them completely off because they play for the Mets.
wannybackstra
11/10/2010-5:11pm at 5:11 pm (UTC -4)
To the victors go the spoils, I guess. And how many people were really paying attention to relative unknowns like Pagan and Ike by the time the dog days came around?
I’m just surprised that Andruw Jones and Greg Maddux didn’t get automatic NL awards again.
Keep in mind that Raffy Palmeiro once won a gold glove after having played in the DH spot 120 or so times.