Well here we are on November eleventh and the with the exception of all the discussion of who we want to be the next Mets manager rather than who should be Mets manager, well the hot stove thus far has been rather quiet. But once again I stress that it is only early November and within a week or too there will be alot more Mets news to be had.
So I put forth this question to all the rabid Mets fans that live and die by the orange and blue – in your opinion who is the most hated Met of all time?
Is it Tom Glavine – the man who was ” disappointed” but not “devastated” when he pitched us out of a playoff berth in ’07 ? Is it somebody more recent – such as a player from the unholy trinity which includes Ollie ” The Sultan of Suckitude” Perez, Luis “Slappy” Castillo or Francisco “ K-Thud Rodriguez” ?
Is it one of the many ineffective relievers that has donned a Mets uniform such as Mel Rojas, Rich Rodriguez, Armondo Benitez or Braden Looper ? Or is it Mike Hampton, our ace from the ’00 season who bolted to Colorado for more money and the better educational learning institutes? Maybe it was one of the many emotionally stunted hitters we imported back in the early ’90′s like Bobby Bonilla, Tony Fernandez and Vince Coleman – or maybe a manager such as Jeff Torborg, Jerry Manuel or Art Howe got your Irish up. Or possibly it was a front office suit such as Steve Phillips, Omar Minaya, Joe MacDonald.
Well if you ask my opinion – all are great choices but my vote is cast for M. Donald Grant. This man single handedly caused the downfall of the Mets in the ’70′s.
So I ask you who is your most hated Met – maybe you agree with me – maybe you have one that I have overlooked.
And with that said… HERE COMES THE INFAMY !!!!
Mets alumni celebrating birthdays today are:
Reliever from the ’05-’06 teams,Roberto Hernandez is 46(1964) .
Spot starter/middle reliever from ’93-’95, Dave Telgheder (1966)
Back up second baseman from ’07-’08, Damion Easley is 41 (1969) . Damion was the best clutch off the bench player the Mets have has in the last five years.
Starting pitcher from ’02-’03, Mike Bacsik is 33 (1977) .
Texas Rangers signed pitcher,Doc Medich of the New York Mets as a free agent on November 11, 1977. Medich is one of the few players to ever wear a Mets uniform yet never play a game with them.
New York Mets traded outfielder,Terry Blocker to the Atlanta Braves for pitcher, Kevin “ Not him” Brown on November 11, 1987.
New York Mets traded closer, Mel Rojas to the Los Angeles Dodgers for Bobby Bonilla on November 11, 1998. I still don’t understand why Steve Phillips brought back Mr. ” Persona Non Grata” back into the fold. The fans hated him and whatever power he had was severely limited by this part of his career.
I would like to congratulate our sister Mets fan, Sharon Chapman for finishing the New York City Marathon in a impressive six hours, twelve minutes and twenty seconds. She raised a total of $6,241 for the Tug Mcgraw Foundation. I thank everyone who helped support Sharon by donating to this worthy cause.
And Speaking of the marathon, Mo Vaugh was disqualified when he was spotted getting off a peddle cab two blocks away from the finish line in Central Park !!
" Heres my choice !!"
125 comments
Dirtysanchez
11/11/2010-8:28am at 8:28 am (UTC -4)
man this is tough…well…the last name that still sends a chill down my spine would be Benitez lol
Ceetar
11/11/2010-8:35am at 8:35 am (UTC -4)
I don’t really hates Mets. Glavine pisses me off, but there were good moments too. Alomar was completely worthless..Vaughn too. Both were times when the Mets didn’t need _too_ much to get into the thick of things, and these two were part of the reason they sucked.
rustyjr
11/11/2010-8:44am at 8:44 am (UTC -4)
I know hate is a strong word – how’s about despised ?
Dirtysanchez
11/11/2010-8:44am at 8:44 am (UTC -4)
I guess hate is a strong word…more like a met whos name sparks a reaction similar to sucking on a sour lemon…which in my case is benitez
kingman 26
11/11/2010-9:10am at 9:10 am (UTC -4)
I have to agree with Ceetar here—I would say I rarely “hate” Mets.
Vince Coleman might be as close as I come.
Oliver Perez’s refusal to accept a AAA assignment definitely makes him an acceptable candidate for any feelings anyone would have towards him.
Hard to think of too many more truly deserving of hate though.
Ceetar
11/11/2010-9:19am at 9:19 am (UTC -4)
I probably give players the benefit of the doubt too much. and don’t trust what the media reports much either. So while I don’t like that Perez wouldn’t “go work it out” I also don’t think he was treated fairly or that it was presented fairly. It struck me that they approached him in a more “get out of here, you suck” attittude then one with a plan with a goal that both parties wanted. I feel both he and Maine were unhappy with the way they were handled from injury to rehab to readjusting to major league pitching, and I imagine they developed a bit of a stubborn attitude about it. It doesn’t excuse behavior, but it makes it more understandable.
Vince Coleman is pretty much before my time. I don’t think 10 year old kids really grasp hating baseball players.
kingman 26
11/11/2010-9:33am at 9:33 am (UTC -4)
Well, 26 year old kids do!
Coleman was just such a jerk—the incident throwing fireworks out of a car in the Dodger Stadium parking lot and literally hitting a child, plus his response when asked about Jackie Robinson: “Don’t know no Jackie Robinson.”
I guess as someone who hates violence against kids (I am sure you do too) and who looks at Jackie as a true American hero, this was enough for me!
njstuckintx
11/11/2010-10:11am at 10:11 am (UTC -4)
I’m with Kong on Coleman.
Heilman is high on my list as well.
kingman 26
11/11/2010-8:55am at 8:55 am (UTC -4)
Benitez is totally unfair. Just totally. Choked some in the clutch to be sure, but was outstanding a lot of the time for us. Without question. Better than Franco, better than most Met closers.
Rusty’s choice is a really excellent and inspired one.
Personally I choose the entire 1993 team.
Bonilla, Coleman, Saberhagen, Murray, Kent–Doc on drugs and 1–16 Anthony Young and useless Torborg as manager–the worst collection of miscreant cretins, has-beens, and never-will-bes to even soil the orange and blue.
And they managed to lose 103 games—worst in team history other than 1962-1965.
Ceetar
11/11/2010-9:22am at 9:22 am (UTC -4)
Depends how you spin it. You could say if not for Benitez’s suckitude, Jeter’s home run would’ve stayed in the park (well, stayed more in the park) the Orioles would’ve won, the Yankees wouldn’t have won in ’96 and that would’ve set the stage for making the wrong moves going forward and they’d still have a longer drought than the Mets.
You know, the whole butterfly flapping his wings in a small way makes a massive change in things going forward?
Baseball’s a game of big moments, and Benitez just has too many bad ones. (game 1 of the WS..another that if we’d pulled that one out things could’ve gone a lot differently) He was instrumental in them getting there..but just too many big bad moments.
kingman 26
11/11/2010-9:31am at 9:31 am (UTC -4)
Well, I guess today we agree on things!
Good point on 96 and on 2000.
I guess I have always chosen not to condemn guys for single bad moments when over such a long season they had so many good moments helping put the team in the position to win.
Sort of like (and not perfect analogies here) those who criticize Wright for that one at bat against the Cubs with Murph on 3rd or Beltran for the K against Wainwright.
But yeah, Benitez’s huge meltdowns almost became predictable.
Ceetar
11/11/2010-9:33am at 9:33 am (UTC -4)
I take responsibility for that cubs game. When Murphy hit the triple I got up and walked from the third base side to the first base side so I could get a jump on the crowd to get to the subway and catch my train.
kingman 26
11/11/2010-9:50am at 9:50 am (UTC -4)
Ha!
I might have moved across my living room….that could have have been it….
oleosmirf
11/11/2010-11:20am at 11:20 am (UTC -4)
i was at the game, Ollie blew a 5-1 lead and couldnt get through 5 innings. When murphy got on 3rd with no outs, Wright decided to swing 3-0 at ball 4. all he had to do was get on base and they would have had to pitch to beltran or delgado but no, they walked them both and Church and Castro couldnt get in the run.
sharonc
11/11/2010-8:58am at 8:58 am (UTC -4)
Rusty – thanks for your kind words, as well as all of your support. You’ve been a wonderful friend during this journey.
Ya Gotta Believe!
rustyjr
11/11/2010-9:42am at 9:42 am (UTC -4)
No prob Sharon
Mr North Jersey
11/11/2010-9:04am at 9:04 am (UTC -4)
Mo Vaughn only used a peddle cab because he got tired of waiting for AAA to change the flat he got on his Honda Scooter.
kingman 26
11/11/2010-9:05am at 9:05 am (UTC -4)
OMG Mo on a Honda Scooter—you have just given Rusty nightmares (and material) for weeks!!!
Prismo
11/11/2010-9:15am at 9:15 am (UTC -4)
Maybe Jeff Kent?
Mr North Jersey
11/11/2010-9:34am at 9:34 am (UTC -4)
I am trying to think what Mets player I was most Happy to see no longer wearing a Mets uniform and the name that keeps popping in my head is Bobby Bonilla.
What a waste of money he was but then again just because you over pay a player millions of dollars doesn’t mean that player will hit more hr’s that he did prior to signing.
The player that was a complete let down based on expectations when we got him was Roberto Alomar jr.
I remember thinking we hit the jackpot with him only to be so disappointed in his performance in a Mets uniform.
I remember the night the Mets traded him to Toronto he immediately made a great play on the field and if I remember correctly had like a 2 hit game.
Those 2 really bothered me but I am sure if given a few minutes I can think of many more.
rustyjr
11/11/2010-9:46am at 9:46 am (UTC -4)
I believe you re referring to Tony Fernandez my friend – also let me throw the names Rey Sanchez , Joe Foy and Jim fregosi into the mix lol
Mr North Jersey
11/11/2010-9:54am at 9:54 am (UTC -4)
Thanks Rusty, yes Tony Fernandez my apologies to Alomar for putting his face to such a bad memory.
stickguy
11/11/2010-9:49am at 9:49 am (UTC -4)
great minds think alike. as I was reading your list of relievers and FO folks, I thought to myself “M Donald Grant”. And boom, your next sentence was just that!
he certainly wins the non-player prize.
for a plyaer, I wil stick with a classic and go with Boby Bo.
wannybackstra
11/11/2010-9:49am at 9:49 am (UTC -4)
George Foster
Vince Coleman
Bobby “Show You the Bronx” Bonilla
M. Donald Grant (as Rusty astutely identified)
all have to be candidates.
Ollie Perez might deserve some merit but he’s not nearly as bad a guy as the others.
kingman 26
11/11/2010-10:00am at 10:00 am (UTC -4)
Forgot Foster, but he is definitely a finalist. Not just performance, but aloofness, being chauffeured to Shea when everyone else drove, sitting alone on the bench during a fight, and worst of all, charging racism when cut. Nice work dredging him up.
But performance-wise, perhaps seriously THE biggest bust in Met history—his numbers were OK, but after his Reds years, damn, we expected more. Few remember now, but he was the ONLY MLB player to hit 50+ HR (52 in 1977) between Mays in 1965 and Fielder in 1990.
wannybackstra
11/11/2010-10:10am at 10:10 am (UTC -4)
He was an all around disaster and it’s no surprise that the team really began its run instantly with his release and Mookie moving over to play leftfield some before Kevin McReynolds came in.
kistics
11/11/2010-10:16am at 10:16 am (UTC -4)
Sorry these are couple unrelated stuffs.
So I just found out that Johan went through same surgery as Kelvim Escobar which is a depressing news.
Oh and it sounds like White Sox are listening to offers for Gordon Beckham.
njstuckintx
11/11/2010-10:21am at 10:21 am (UTC -4)
K-Rod, Fmart + a couple for Jenks and Beckham?
oleosmirf
11/11/2010-10:24am at 10:24 am (UTC -4)
you don’t want Jenks
njstuckintx
11/11/2010-10:27am at 10:27 am (UTC -4)
care to elaborate?
oleosmirf
11/11/2010-10:31am at 10:31 am (UTC -4)
numbers and velocity have been declining. id rather have K-Rod any day of the week over Jenks and Beckham might have talent but its not worth making that move.
njstuckintx
11/11/2010-10:38am at 10:38 am (UTC -4)
If you are factoring in the salary for both this and next year, (assuming you want salary flexibility to bring back Reyes without breaking the bank all the while improving a shoddy pitching staff) it may be an option. Granted, I threw that out there without too much though on the numbers or the prospects it would take, but that would help fill the 2B hole that everyone is trying their hardest to improved while reducing the 2012 salary obligations.
oleosmirf
11/11/2010-10:45am at 10:45 am (UTC -4)
If the Mets do not want K-Rod back next season they will either remove him as the closer or move him so the option wont be picked up.
even if he is wanted back, Beltran, Perez, Castillo are 100% gone so that is 40 million right there. the OF spot should be filled internally with Kirk or F-Mart and 2B should also be filled either by Murphy, Havens, Satin, Tejada, Valdespin or someone else thats cheap. That leaves a lot of money to bring in the SP and the closer
njstuckintx
11/11/2010-10:50am at 10:50 am (UTC -4)
Can you imagine the firestorm from the union if they just all of a sudden stopped using K-rod because they didn’t want his option to vest? There best option would be to make his father in law the team trainer and hope K-rod goes Mike Tyson on him again.
As for the money, that also assumes that they role with the same overall payroll, vs. reducing it. When you start paying your front office almost 10 mil a year, that savings has to come from somewhere. Just saying.
oleosmirf
11/11/2010-11:06am at 11:06 am (UTC -4)
the Mets can use whatever player in whatever role they see fit. If they want to move Parnell into the closers role b/c they want him to get experience then thats their right.
kistics
11/11/2010-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
Well I think Omar’s salary will come off as well after 2011 season. So there’s extra couple million.
But I agree with njstuckintx that the players union will not stand by whatever moves the Mets make if there’s even a hint of avoiding vesting option. I don’t think that’s what the Mets would want to do.
I just hope that KRod is somehow involved with this whole Charlie Samuels thing and the Mets can void his contract entirely.
njstuckintx
11/11/2010-11:15am at 11:15 am (UTC -4)
Oleo, I hear you that it is their right to do it, but I’m telling you, bringing K-rod to 52 starts by ealry September and then not using him in his closing role is going to start a fire-storm.
wannybackstra
11/11/2010-11:24am at 11:24 am (UTC -4)
Their would most certainly be a union grievance and then the effect such a move would have on future free agents would be horrific.
It’s a horrible idea.
They signed the deal and now they have to live by it. If he is performing well he is quite obviously their best candidate for the role of closing games.
oleosmirf
11/11/2010-11:29am at 11:29 am (UTC -4)
sure they’d be mad but they cant do a thing about it. either way I expect K-Rod to be a top 5-10 closer again but im sure they will look to trade him at the deadline, just as they will do with Beltran.
wannybackstra
11/11/2010-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
A grievance isn’t like an argument on Festivus. It’s something that would ultimately arbitrated and could result in the Mets being fined.
But again, you’re being short sighted on this issue. Who is the next player that would want to come play in NY with any incentives or contract options? Surely there are players who would not want to come work for dishonest thieves.
kistics
11/11/2010-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
Can’t see any team taking on KRod’s salary. Especially with the abundance of closers in this FA market.
I think we’re stuck with him whether we like it or not.
I think we’re all in agreement that KRod is still the best closer option for the Mets in 2011 (or 2012). And I don’t mind his $12M salary. But when it gets to $17.5M, that’s overpaying him. I bet you Mariano doesn’t get that money this season.
Whatever the reason is, I think we’re just stuck with him.
njstuckintx
11/11/2010-11:39am at 11:39 am (UTC -4)
And being stuck with him isn’t the worst thing. His salary is going to hurt, but if they can grin and bare it for the year, they’ll be ok. My thought on the trading was if you can get those 2 guys while shedding K-rod and utilizing prospects to up your 2B (for the foreseeable future) and have an above average closer, I’d do it. Hell, throw Havens and Satin in the deal as well. Anyway, it won’t happen, but it beats discussing this vs. Gold Glove awards.
oleosmirf
11/11/2010-11:53am at 11:53 am (UTC -4)
players care about the highest offer they can get and what their quality of life will be like and thats it.
kingman 26
11/11/2010-12:07pm at 12:07 pm (UTC -4)
KRod could be hugely valuable to this team in 2011, and even moreso in 2012, as we may then be ready for the postseason, and he will still be young and also pitching for his next contract.
Plus, according to Adam Rubin, his family DID celebrate Festivus, and KRod annually won the family Feats of Strength contest, even when Hugo Chavez was a holiday guest.
wannybackstra
11/11/2010-12:16pm at 12:16 pm (UTC -4)
Oleo — your view on this naive. No employee wants to go work somewhere where they’ll be screwed over. And if they screw over K-Rod in this case then it substantially affects the actual value of the offer he accepted.
kistics
11/11/2010-10:43am at 10:43 am (UTC -4)
They would probably want Mejia or a top prospect for Beckham I would guess.
njstuckintx
11/11/2010-10:44am at 10:44 am (UTC -4)
Would you do that?
oleosmirf
11/11/2010-10:45am at 10:45 am (UTC -4)
i wouldnt
njstuckintx
11/11/2010-10:47am at 10:47 am (UTC -4)
I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t either. I’d rather role the dice with Murphy myself and save every pitching prospect unless parting with said pitching prospect brought back a jonathan sanchez or a matt garza or something similar.
kistics
11/11/2010-10:47am at 10:47 am (UTC -4)
If Beckham had only the ’09 stats, I would. But last season he took a major step back. So probably not.
wannybackstra
11/11/2010-11:09am at 11:09 am (UTC -4)
Beckham was only 23 last season and in the second half he hit .310 .380 .497. He may very well be a stud at 2B.
oleosmirf
11/11/2010-11:11am at 11:11 am (UTC -4)
you dont trade your top pitching prospect for a position player especially when you have someone like Havens in AA.
wannybackstra
11/11/2010-11:17am at 11:17 am (UTC -4)
Says who?
And has Havens even played a full season yet?
Anyway, I haven’t really come to an opinion as to whether I would make the trade. But I certainly haven’t seen anything from Mejia yet that makes me think he is a can’t miss front of the rotation pitcher.
kistics
11/11/2010-11:28am at 11:28 am (UTC -4)
Agreed with Wanny. If we can get a mid 20s IF that can hit .877 OPS, I seriously would have to think about trading Mejia.
kistics
11/11/2010-11:19am at 11:19 am (UTC -4)
That’s very interesting. Why would the White Sox trade him?
wannybackstra
11/11/2010-11:22am at 11:22 am (UTC -4)
Beats me. I’d be very surprised if they did.
kistics
11/11/2010-12:55pm at 12:55 pm (UTC -4)
But WhiteSox are known for their aggressiveness in trading market.
He just looks really good. Look at his minor league numbers. He had like 23 doubles in 175 ABs.
oleosmirf
11/11/2010-10:29am at 10:29 am (UTC -4)
the most hated Met for me should be of no surprise to all of you, Oliver Perez.
rustyjr
11/11/2010-10:33am at 10:33 am (UTC -4)
Par for the course I think Leiter & Mickey Loilich can be lumped into this list also
oleosmirf
11/11/2010-10:35am at 10:35 am (UTC -4)
Al Leiter???
please explain
rustyjr
11/11/2010-10:43am at 10:43 am (UTC -4)
By the time he left he had worn out his welcome with the fans
oleosmirf
11/11/2010-10:46am at 10:46 am (UTC -4)
he was also the most consistently successful pitcher we’ve had longterm in my lifetime at least.
rustyjr
11/11/2010-10:54am at 10:54 am (UTC -4)
I agree – but there were many fans that wanted to run him out of flushing
kingman 26
11/11/2010-11:25am at 11:25 am (UTC -4)
Mixed feelings on Leiter—great game against the Reds in the 1-game playoff; got shelled in Game 6 of the 99 NLCS.
Was he involved in getting rid of Kazmir?
Personally, I did not care for his politics either.
I definitely don’t hate him though; he was a very good Met overall I would say.
saltygary
11/11/2010-10:33am at 10:33 am (UTC -4)
Bonilla has been my #1 for so long but as time goes by I think Glavine will eventually take the top spot because his negative impact was greater.
With Bonilla he was the face of expectation for that 93 team which might not be fair anymore. When Phillips re-signed him I effing freaked, how in the world could that happen. The cherry on top is the team will be paying him for the next 20 years.
For Glavine, I never wanted him on the Mets. IT WAS A TRAP. I never viewed him as a Met and in his final game he showed that he was always a true brave. I respect him immensely for his Brave years and despise him as a Met.
For my wife, she would say Looper. She HATED Looper. Also on 09/07/05 while in the hospital waiting for my first child to be born, Looper blows 2 saves in the same freaking game against the Braves and technically knocked the Mets out of the playoffs (probably starting the season 0-5 knocked them out but I would rather blame Looper. And not to be completely mean BUTTT I hated the guys face.He always looked like he was smiling when he gave up runs and I know he wasn’t but it irked me.
GravediggerHebner
11/11/2010-11:15am at 11:15 am (UTC -4)
I don’t know if this answers the question quite as it was asked but the Met that I just feel was such an incredible let down was Roberto Alomar.
I was so excited that the Mets had acquired a perennial All-Star gold glove and silver slugger 2B and just got nothing resembling that.
Hate is a strong word but I feel like Alomar came here with very high expectations and gave nothing and I have very strong negative feelings toward him.
kingman 26
11/11/2010-11:27am at 11:27 am (UTC -4)
Alomar, Samuel, Baerga, Kaz Matsui, even Castillo—2B has been a breeding ground for extreme disappointment for decades….
kistics
11/11/2010-11:29am at 11:29 am (UTC -4)
Soon you’ll be adding Bay to the list…
Just kidding
njstuckintx
11/11/2010-11:41am at 11:41 am (UTC -4)
Bay plays 2B?
kistics
11/11/2010-12:41pm at 12:41 pm (UTC -4)
sorry when i saw alomar and matsui’s name, automatically i assumed it was the list of most disappointing players…
GravediggerHebner
11/11/2010-11:42am at 11:42 am (UTC -4)
If Alderson manages to trade off Castillo and Tejada is given more seasoning maybe Bay _can_ be the next disappointing 2B.
wannybackstra
11/11/2010-11:38am at 11:38 am (UTC -4)
It hasn’t quite approached the pre-Ventura/Alfonzo futility at 3B just yet.
GravediggerHebner
11/11/2010-11:43am at 11:43 am (UTC -4)
Anyone have any thoughts, actual or sarcastic, on what Sandy Alderson might be saying to Luis Castillo who he is apparently visiting while in the DR interviewing Ken Oberkfell?
rustyjr
11/11/2010-11:50am at 11:50 am (UTC -4)
Alderson : just sit still this will be quick and painless – boom !
Ceetar
11/11/2010-12:08pm at 12:08 pm (UTC -4)
He’ll be serious about telling him that he will be talkign to other teams about him, but he’ll state that he expects Castillo to be in shape and ready to go as the 2011 starting 2Bman. He’ll suggest to Castillo that he has a lot to do, and if 2B can be filled in-house, that would save him a lot of work.
He’ll ask Castillo if he wants to be here. If he likes the Mets. basically “If you don’t want to be here, I’ll make sure you’re not here.” meaning he’ll cut him or take a huge hit in a trade, salary wise.
This team is not going to sit back and let bad players play. I suspect Alderson will lay out what he expects from Castillo, performance wise, and empahsize guys like Tejada as needing a place to play if he doesn’t.
GravediggerHebner
11/11/2010-12:18pm at 12:18 pm (UTC -4)
What you describe is precisely both what I would hope is happening and what I believe is happening.
My only fear is I perceive Luis Castillo to be not strong of will and I worry that his responses to Alderson will be what he thinks Alderson wants to hear as opposed to what he really feels.
Ceetar
11/11/2010-12:23pm at 12:23 pm (UTC -4)
yeah, i mean if he doesn’t want to be here I hope he tells Alderson that. (and i hope Alderson keeps it secret)
oleosmirf
11/11/2010-3:03pm at 3:03 pm (UTC -4)
if Castillo is on the team to start the season, then i will seriously start to doubt Alderson’s abilities to bring in talent. sure Castillo walks at a high rate but he’s always hurt, has no range, bats under .250 and has a lower OPS than some pitchers and is useless as a bench player. If thats the best Alderson can give us, then we picked the wrong man for the job…
GravediggerHebner
11/11/2010-3:10pm at 3:10 pm (UTC -4)
Except for “wow!” I’m speechless.
oleosmirf
11/11/2010-4:49pm at 4:49 pm (UTC -4)
im serious. Perez i can understand keeping but Castillo staying on board is unacceptable.
kistics
11/11/2010-12:09pm at 12:09 pm (UTC -4)
Regarding Castillo. Did you know that his last season UZR is higher than Kano’s?
kingman 26
11/11/2010-12:17pm at 12:17 pm (UTC -4)
Did you know that UZR stands for “Utterly Zero Relevance?”
See Jason Bay for example A.
Prismo
11/11/2010-12:18pm at 12:18 pm (UTC -4)
Wellllll.
Bay fielded pretty well, I think! I had no issues with his defense, in fact it was better than advertised. (basing off my eyes, not UZR)
kingman 26
11/11/2010-3:37pm at 3:37 pm (UTC -4)
My point precisely Prismo!
He had some bad UZRs, but is an above average fielder I would say; not a Gold Glover, but fine.
Ceetar
11/11/2010-12:22pm at 12:22 pm (UTC -4)
Bay’s UZR was always good.
It doesn’t have zero relevance. It’s certainly a poor metric to definitively state anything though.
People are biased in terms of Castillo. and very small changes in fielding drastically alter the number, but if it’s positive it suggests to me that there were no “black hole” areas that the ball _always_ got through. It suggests that Castillo did get to a lot of balls to his left and right, and suggests that his defense was not deterimental to the team.
kistics
11/11/2010-12:39pm at 12:39 pm (UTC -4)
but to my eyes tejada seems to be far more superior than castillo in terms of defense. but in UZR, tejada is so much lower than castillo.
is this partially because castillo is a vet and can read the defense little better? or are we fooling ourselves?
Ceetar
11/11/2010-1:29pm at 1:29 pm (UTC -4)
I think reading the ball of the bat and position go a long way. I didn’t think Tejada was extremely awesome defensively, felt he could be better, seemed to be a little raw for the most part. a lot like Reyes in a way, when he first came up. talented, but maybe not perfectly sound instinctually.
UZR’s really only measuring range, and badly at that. It also doesn’t mean Tejada was worse (really need 3 years of sample size, and that makes it so dillutied with statistical noise..) Since the sample size is so low, the one or two mistakes Tejada made that let a ball through a hole factor bigger in making the UZR look worse.
kingman 26
11/11/2010-3:37pm at 3:37 pm (UTC -4)
Of course Tejada is far superior. UZR is ridiculous sometimes.
kingman 26
11/11/2010-3:35pm at 3:35 pm (UTC -4)
Ceetar, Bay’s UZR has been awful. It was adjusted for the year at Fenway because it was clearly so ridiculous.
It was -18 and -12 for a couple of years with PITT.
Ceetar
11/11/2010-4:26pm at 4:26 pm (UTC -4)
was it? I thought the UZR was adjusted overall and Bay came out ahead.
UZR in general is pretty bad, it tells us very little more than how many chances a guy converted into outs. But it’s pretty tough to have a good UZR without having at least a passable range.
kingman 26
11/11/2010-4:50pm at 4:50 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, unless I am reading it wrong, according to Fan Graphs these were his UZRs in his later years in PITT:
2005: -13.5
2006: 1.9
2007: -19.0
2008: -18.2
Still, as I said too many times to count last offseason, I think Bay played 199 games in Fenway, made one error, and had 20 assists—how bad could he possibly have been? And LF in Fenway is no picnic…
njstuckintx
11/11/2010-1:05pm at 1:05 pm (UTC -4)
oh snap.
GravediggerHebner
11/11/2010-11:59am at 11:59 am (UTC -4)
Some of you, but perhaps especially the new saber dudes, will be interested in this:
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2010/11/10/1804970/benefit-of-the-doubt-relievers-who-get-the-wide-zone
Apparently Mariano Rivera gets an absurd number of pitches called as strikes that are not necessarily strikes. But he’s not alone.
Prismo
11/11/2010-12:18pm at 12:18 pm (UTC -4)
Just have to point out that I’m in quantitative methods and modeling (aka statistics II) class right now…and my professor is teaching is about correlations (r and r-squared). Completely coincidentally, the exact thing I posted about yesterday. Weird.
GravediggerHebner
11/11/2010-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
Perhaps you should submit your post to your professor for consideration, and perhaps you should stop tweeting while in class!
kistics
11/11/2010-12:40pm at 12:40 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah Prismo. Pay attention to your professor! :p
Prismo
11/11/2010-12:57pm at 12:57 pm (UTC -4)
You should stop…living. Jerk.
kistics
11/11/2010-1:11pm at 1:11 pm (UTC -4)
LOL…
GravediggerHebner
11/11/2010-1:22pm at 1:22 pm (UTC -4)
Maybe I will, so there!
stickguy
11/11/2010-1:30pm at 1:30 pm (UTC -4)
watch out for them Okies Grave. he probably has a gun in the cab of his pick ‘em up truck.
Prismo
11/11/2010-1:38pm at 1:38 pm (UTC -4)
YEE-HAW
I live here 3 months and I’m an Okie. ;(
GravediggerHebner
11/11/2010-1:43pm at 1:43 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks for the heads up.
My only real life OK experience was in 1993, driving from Kansas City to Houston, I stopped in a truck stop in OK and the cashier was a teenage goth girl, dressed all in black with green streaks in her jet black hair.
My car was overheating, I was stressed from that and the long drive, and I asked “where is your anti-freeze?” She gave me a blank goth stare. “Where is the anti-freeze? The green stuff that goes in your radiator?” She goes, “oh, you mean coolant, it’s over there (points at huge display of Prestone).”
So I learned something from a teenage goth girl that day: Don’t ask for anti-freeze when what you want is coolant.
kistics
11/11/2010-1:47pm at 1:47 pm (UTC -4)
LMAO!
rustyjr
11/11/2010-1:57pm at 1:57 pm (UTC -4)
I like goth chicks- they like doing it in the dark to heavy metal music lol
GravediggerHebner
11/11/2010-2:03pm at 2:03 pm (UTC -4)
In the dark is key because when the goth costume comes off it’s not usually a pleasant surprise, at least not in my personal experience.
kistics
11/11/2010-1:45pm at 1:45 pm (UTC -4)
pick’em up truck?? lol
Prismo
11/11/2010-1:47pm at 1:47 pm (UTC -4)
I just asked and she’s going to show me how to create a confidence interval. I’ll be able to use WHIP to predict ERA with a confidence interval (say, 95% that the ERA will be between x and y for a given WHIP). “Pitching Metrics II” post incoming in the next several days.
kistics
11/11/2010-1:52pm at 1:52 pm (UTC -4)
nerd…..
njstuckintx
11/11/2010-1:54pm at 1:54 pm (UTC -4)
ALERT ALERT!!!! TRDMB MODERATION ALERT!!!
kistics
11/11/2010-2:39pm at 2:39 pm (UTC -4)
Okie nerd with a pick’em up truck with and a shotgun doing a goth girl in the dark listening to heavy metal music… AWESOME!!
sorry pris… please don’t ban me… TRDMB is the only bright light at my work… and facebook too..
GravediggerHebner
11/11/2010-1:54pm at 1:54 pm (UTC -4)
I would say that the phrase “confidence interval” makes me think of commercials for erectile dysfunction cures but that might reveal too much.
stickguy
11/11/2010-2:19pm at 2:19 pm (UTC -4)
Cue up Van Halen. I think Prismo is Hot for Teacher!
GravediggerHebner
11/11/2010-2:42pm at 2:42 pm (UTC -4)
Ugh. The opening of that song sounds like explosive diarrhea.
rustyjr
11/11/2010-2:46pm at 2:46 pm (UTC -4)
Alex Van Halen’s double bass in that song is sick !
darknova306
11/11/2010-12:46pm at 12:46 pm (UTC -4)
Great question, rusty. I’d have to say the Mets player I’ve had the most negative feelings toward in my fandom (which started in 1991) would be Oliver Perez. Halfway through the season I got so fed up with seeing him that whenever he entered a game, my tv went off. Done. No more. It’s funny that even with the expectation of his 3-year deal becoming a huge bust, his suckitude still managed to astound me.
stickguy
11/11/2010-1:28pm at 1:28 pm (UTC -4)
just to be a littler fairer to K Rod, he is not a 17.5mill hit to the 2012 payroll. It is really just 14 mill.
If the contract doesn’t vest, there is still a 3.5mill buyout.
So still overpriced, but not quite as bad!
Just look at it as a deffered signing bonus, and it doesn’t sound as bad.
it looks worse because of all the backloading. If omar had just given him a 4 year, 48 mill (12 per year) deal with a 4 mill signing bonus up front, I don’t think people would be having such a cow. And that is basically the same total cost as what he will get anyway.
As Real has pointed out a few times, it was a creative way to get K Rod the money that Omar coudn’t afford up front. and at least there is coverage for the team in case he breaks down.
njstuckintx
11/11/2010-1:51pm at 1:51 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, it does work out that way for the long run, but there are very few companies that roll with combined 4 year budgets vs. a yearly budget, if you get my whift.
TRS86
11/11/2010-7:36pm at 7:36 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks for the mention. I don’t think Omar was that stupid (well not completely). He knew that we would be better off financially in 2012 and that is why he backloaded the deal.
njstuckintx
11/11/2010-8:45pm at 8:45 pm (UTC -4)
But are we?
stickguy
11/11/2010-9:07pm at 9:07 pm (UTC -4)
they will be, knowing that ollie and castillo and beltran are all gone.
njstuckintx
11/11/2010-1:49pm at 1:49 pm (UTC -4)
As per ESPN via MLBTR and now posted on TRDMB…
- Alderson interviewed Clint Hurdle and Don Wakamatsu at Citi Field yesterday, according to Adam Rubin of ESPNNewYork.com. Next up, the GM will interview Mets Triple-A manager Ken Oberkfell in the Dominican Republic.
- Omir Santos and Mike Hessman are free agents after refusing minor league assignments, according to Rubin (on Twitter).
Ceetar
11/11/2010-2:06pm at 2:06 pm (UTC -4)
Frenchy refused a minor league assignment and is now a free agent as well.
fongy2
11/11/2010-2:13pm at 2:13 pm (UTC -4)
1) Tom Glavine b/c I couldn’t stand him BEFORE we got him.
Made a living (along with Maddox) getting strike calls NO ONE in
the game got. Thank you Bobby Cox. One of two Mets (Sheffield being
the other) I had to force myself to cheer for in any way. Union shill.
THEN for a future HOF Pitcher to be soooo bad in such a huge game
again a mediocore team/line-up that we were done after the top of
the first inning is….for me unforgivable!
2) George Foster b/c his acquisition brought great hope for a new era.
He showed quickly that he didn’t want to be a Met, dogged it for years
and when we got good (no thanks to him) b*tched about being sat at
times….THEN, when he was finally showed the door pulled out the
phoney racism card.
3)Entry…Juan Samuel,Carlos Baerga,Robbie Alomar & Luis Castillo All of whom when acquired were still in their prime got
to New York and couldn’t play almost at all anymore.
njstuckintx
11/11/2010-2:18pm at 2:18 pm (UTC -4)
Ugh… Juan Samuel. I still remember his first at bat as a Met. Drilled a deep drive to Left field fence. Crowd stood up, I jumped up thinking “yes, 1st AB, 1st Met HR!” And… warning track power, caught, out, disappointed from that point forward.
hazmet
11/11/2010-5:06pm at 5:06 pm (UTC -4)
I’m with Rusty, M.Donald Grant. Douche who traded Tom Terrific. Ironically, you could also make a case he was the most successful GM with one world title and a return appearance. But he still sucked. Success was based on Herzog’s & Gil’s work from those years imo.
Player: Man tough question, possibly Bobby Bonilla since we’re still freaking paying him, no wonder we couldn’t wipe the smile off his face. But I had utter disdain for Vince Coleman. Coming from the Cards with no legs left, little game other than speed, and the absolute dillusion by the Mets front office that Vince’s speed would offset them letting Daryl’s power walk out the door a year earlier.