Back when I was “trying out,” I took a look at some potential “finds” for the 2011 starting rotation and bullpen. Today, I want to take a look at the outfield. Unlike the rotation, however, it’s currently not clear what the 2011 outfield configuration will be, and whether any holes will exist.
One possibility for 2011 is the following outfield, which requires no player moves whatsoever:
| Player | Position | 2010 TAv | 2010 triple slash |
| Jason Bay | LF-Starting | .295 | (.259/.347/.402) |
| Carlos Beltran | CF-Starting | .283 | (.255/.341/.427) |
| Angel Pagan | RF-Starting | .286 | (.286/.340/.425) |
| Lucas Duda | OF-PH | .246 | (.304/.398/.569) at AA/AAA |
| Nick Evans | OF-PH | .285 | (.300/.371/.536) at AA/AAA |
Quite possibly, this outfield could be very productive (albeit somewhat defensively challenged). When Beltran needs a day off, Pagan could slide over to center and Duda or Evans could play right depending on that day’s starting pitcher.
Of course, embedded in this lineup are several assumptions. Assumption 1: Carlos Beltran can be something resembling an everyday Center Fielder again. Assumption 2: Angel Pagan is a good enough hitter to be an everyday outfielder. Assumption 3: Bay recovers from his concussion. Assumption 4: Duda and Evans both are capable of hitting enough in part-time roles to both compensate for their defensive deficiencies and to justify roster spots.
Believe it or not, I do think Carlos Beltran has something left (at least with the bat). First, in July and August he was really the victim of bad luck, posting BABIP’s of .213 and .271 respectively. In September, he was somewhat lucky with a .328 BABIP (above his career .300 average, which is exactly average) but did post an awesome (.321/.365/.603) line for the month. And overall, his TAv was essentially the same as Pagan’s—as you could infer from the similarity of their triple-slash lines.
It’s assumption 2 that I don’t think holds up. Pagan had a pretty good 2010. But here is his BABIP and overall slash line by month in 2010:
| Month | BABIP | Triple slash |
| April | .295 | (.257/.329/.365) |
| May | .364 | (.333/.388/.495) |
| June | .343 | (.308/.360/.449) |
| July | .397 | (.337/.402/.594) |
| August | .289 | (.231/.257/.315) |
| Sept/Oct | .303 | (.274/.305/.336) |
What’s particularly concerning about Pagan’s numbers is that his success is fueled by months of unsustainable BABIP (remember .300 is about average). When he produces a league-average BABIP, like he did in September, his numbers are simply not worthy of being a starting outfielder in the bigs.
But Pagan does do three things well that make him an extremely valuable 4th outfielder. First, he’s excellent in the field at all 3 outfield positions. Second, he’s a great base-stealer (if not a great base-runner). Third, he is excellent against RH-pitching (.300/.351/.436) in 2010 and remarkably, almost exactly the same for his career (.300/.351/.444).
So, before we even get to the final assumptions, the Mets need to do something. Yes, Evans and Pagan platooning could work, but I have another thought: Wladimir Balentien (pronounced Ba-Luhn-Teen). Once the top prospect in the Mariners organization, Balentien has bounced around a little bit, but is still only 26 and is a minor league free agent. Last year, he hit 25 homers and had a (.282/.337/.536) line with Triple-A Louisville. But those numbers only tell part of the story. Against lefties last year his line was (.360/.424/.640) and he also seemed to finally put everything together in the second half, posting a (.368/.418/.730) line. He also developed a running game this year, stealing 12 bases while only being caught once. Balentien has gotten looks at the big league level before and disappointed, but he’s never been given a full shot. He actually reminds me some of Nelson Cruz, a right-handed power hitter who never got a real shot in the bigs until his age-27 season. The biggest difference between the two is that Cruz had always demonstrated a keen batting eye, which has been Balentien’s biggest weakness. However, that may be mitigated some by limiting Balentien to playing against lefties.
Perhaps Balentien won’t work out, but the upside there is definitely worth the gamble. Now, for assumption 3, I think the jury is still out. Now, you’re probably saying, “but Bay stunk before the concussion.” And, that’s partially true, he wasn’t really worth what the Mets were paying. But, he did have some value. There’s also some reason to believe that, like David Wright, he will adjust his game more to Citi Field and see some of his power return. I plan to write more about the “Citi-Field effect” in a future posting.
Finally, I do have some faith that Duda and Evans can be productive hitters, Duda in particular. He got off to a very slow start in Flushing but came on late, and frankly his numbers in the minors last year strongly suggest he can be a contributor at the major league level. Indeed, it wouldn’t surprise me if it is he and not Pagan who ends up platooning in Right with Balentien (should he get signed), and Pagan serves as either a late-inning defensive replacement in one spot (or maybe starts in center should Beltran be injured).
Notably, I have not, until now, mentioned Fernando Martinez or Kirk Nieuwenhuis. Suffice it to say, I think both need more time in the Minors. Captain Kirk showed improved patience as the season progressed, but still had only a .327 OBP last year—just not good enough. He hasn’t yet shown he’s a big-leaguer. Similarly, Martinez was only at .317—definitely not good enough. But, with Martinez, remember that he’s only 21. I would send him to Double-A to start 2011 and let him learn to dominate (and stretch) and maybe by 2012 he’ll be ready to contribute.
To sum up, I think the Mets have options for the outfield in 2012, even if they stand pat. But, the possibility of bringing in Balentien is a low-risk, high-upside move that the Mets definitely should make.
156 comments
kingman 26
11/16/2010-10:24am at 10:24 am (UTC -4)
Your pieces are great.
How refreshing to see someone correctly analyze Angel Pagan.
Thank you.
stickguy
11/16/2010-10:38am at 10:38 am (UTC -4)
Pagan is also turning 30 this year, right? So not exactly a spring chicken prospect, especially as a CF.
TRS86
11/16/2010-11:55am at 11:55 am (UTC -4)
LOL, correctly analyze. Killing me today. While I am not sure what we competly have with Pagan, I do know that the numbers he produced for the year last year both offensively and defensively ranked him in the top 5 CF. Again, I don’t think he is an all-star but I for sure think he has proved to be given a shot to start.
Ceetar
11/16/2010-11:57am at 11:57 am (UTC -4)
i think he deserved to be an All Star this year over many who made it actually.
kingman 26
11/16/2010-12:12pm at 12:12 pm (UTC -4)
Angel Pagan in Aug/Sept/Oct:
234 PA: 23 R, 56 H, 10 2B, 0 3B, 2 HR (12 XBH in 234 PA)
BA: Aug: .231
Sept: .274
OBP: Aug: .257
Sept: .305
SLG: Aug: .315
Sept: .336
Suggesting that this post by MetsFan2011 is “correctly analyzing” Pagan is SO offensive to you?
How is this not simply me expressing an opinion?
TRS86
11/16/2010-12:33pm at 12:33 pm (UTC -4)
That would be like me saying we should judge him only by his first 3 months. There is no “correct” way to analyze any player. That is why MLB guys screw it up all the time. What is great about stats is that they are left up to interpretation. I can get something totally different out of a set of stats than someone else.
TRS86
11/16/2010-12:35pm at 12:35 pm (UTC -4)
For example, would I be “correctly analyzing” David Wrights stats if said that he is the .244 .305 .466 .770 guy he showed us in the 2nd half this season? Yes I know that Wright has a much larger body of work to look at, yet when you look at Pagan’s entire time with the Mets the 2 months that he performed poorly buck the trend.
kingman 26
11/16/2010-12:40pm at 12:40 pm (UTC -4)
Angel Pagan’s horrid last two months put his 2010 final stats all right in line with his entire mediocre career.
TRS86
11/16/2010-12:43pm at 12:43 pm (UTC -4)
How do they place in his time with the Mets?
.294 .344 .441 .785 111 OPS+ over the course of 270 games, 1114 AB’s.
Yeah I think we should look mostly at his last 234 PA.
TRS86
11/16/2010-12:47pm at 12:47 pm (UTC -4)
Even if we used his career stats : .285 .335 .435 .770 they still show to be much better than he performed in August-October.
Perhaps he, like Wright, struggled in the 2nd half due to the terrible leadership in the clubhouse? Perhaps he struggled due to the fact that everyone else in the lineup slumped at the same time. Perhaps he struggled because he hit in a different spot in the lineup so many times. Perhaps he struggled because he is not very good. Who knows, but again during his overall time with the Mets he has earned a starting spot. If he fails in that spot so be it.
tkfj2
11/16/2010-10:27am at 10:27 am (UTC -4)
Hi people.
I like this new guy.
Ollie Perez won’t make it through ST.Just thought I would add that.
Ceetar
11/16/2010-10:33am at 10:33 am (UTC -4)
Angel Pagan has a .337 BABIP with the Mets. .325 career. I don’t believe using a .300 average is fair for him.
His end of the season wasn’t great, but it was also a little unlucky. His mets career is like a .785 OPS.
metsfan2011
11/16/2010-10:44am at 10:44 am (UTC -4)
That is a fair critique. That being said, he’s still only at (.251/.294/.414) vs. lefties in his career, which doesn’t scream everyday player to me.
BillPetti
11/16/2010-2:16pm at 2:16 pm (UTC -4)
He’s serviceable, but not everyday material under most conditions.
His lifetime BABIP against lefties is only .263, while it’s .354 against righties. If these numbers were for one season we could attribute it to luck, but it’s 400+ games so I think it is telling us that his performance isn’t due to bad luck.
He actually had a BABIP against lefties of .279 in 2010 and .272 in 2009, so if anything you could say his paltry numbers against southpaws were boosted by good fortune.
He also had the 59th ranked OPS and RC against lefties for all major league outfielders, whereas he created the 17th most runs and had the 40th best OPS against righties.
kingman 26
11/16/2010-2:41pm at 2:41 pm (UTC -4)
HAHA!!!
Pagan isn’t a top-5 outfielder?
I am SHOCKED!!
Thank YOU both sirs!
stickguy
11/16/2010-3:48pm at 3:48 pm (UTC -4)
since this is now being debated in saberland, he is ranked much higher looking at WAR. Since his biggest contribution probably comes from plus D, not just hitting.
And Knog, I know you like D!
TRS86
11/16/2010-10:06pm at 10:06 pm (UTC -4)
Not vs LHP he is not. However, just like how you have to factor in his entire season when evaluating him you also have to factor in his AB’s vs RHP as well as defense. Keep in mind that we are also talking about Angel Pagan the CF and not Angel Pagan the LF and RF. No one said he was a top 5 OF, yet his WAR and other stats do point to he being a top 5 CF.
Mr North Jersey
11/16/2010-3:12pm at 3:12 pm (UTC -4)
If babip is the criteria used for such a determination then I can see your point but at the same time I can’t hang my hat on just that statistic.
I say this as a man that agrees that Pagan’s 2010 is questionable as far as it being proof of him being an everyday player that can continue to put up such numbers.
I will agree his splits are drastic when comparing righties to lefties but so is Ryan Howard. That doesnt mean to suggest that Pagan is a Ryan Howard just that drastically different splits alone are not an indicator of a player being an everyday player or not.
Ceetar
11/16/2010-3:35pm at 3:35 pm (UTC -4)
Pretty much. I don’t know how to isolate his splits for just his Mets tenure, but if you actually look, his splits are basically even for starters. It’s against the lefty reliever that his numbers drop (as do everyones, given that that’s what lefty relievers tend to do)
Maybe you pinch hit for him against a tough lefty, but he seems to be able to hand with a starting pitcher just fine.
stickguy
11/16/2010-3:47pm at 3:47 pm (UTC -4)
good thing there are way more RH than LH pitchers in MLB.
Ceetar
11/16/2010-3:52pm at 3:52 pm (UTC -4)
Someone look at the numbers and see if I’m wrong, but it looks like Ryan Howard has only hit 3 home runs in his career off a left handed reliever. 3.
BillPetti
11/16/2010-4:39pm at 4:39 pm (UTC -4)
Fair points. I was using his career BABIP to underscore that his bad performance against lefties wasn’t a one year fluke.
And, true, drastic splits alone can’t tell you if someone is an everyday player. But combine that with his performance relative to other OF’s and you have to think about whether the Mets can afford having the 60th best hitting outfielder against lefties playing everyday.
The LH reliever argument is intriguing, but Pagan is a switch hitter so the fair comparison is how other switch hitting OF perform against LH relievers. I don’t have reliever data handy, but against all LH pitchers here’s the OPS rankings of switch hitting OF’s (min 100 PA vs LHP):
1 Shane Victorino .921
2 Nick Swisher .848
3 Dexter Fowler .744
4 Ben Zobrist .695
5 Angel Pagan .692
6 Andres Torres .659
7 Melky Cabrera .642
8 Trevor Crowe .490
As far as WAR goes, that’s the far stronger argument. His WAR was 13th among all MLB OFs and it was largely driven by his defense. If he plays CF, I could buy him as an everyday player given that the Mets are much better at keeping runs off the board than putting them on and given Citi Field, etc. But if Beltran ends up in CF then Pagan’s value declines drastically as a corner outfielder in my mind.
Mr North Jersey
11/16/2010-4:45pm at 4:45 pm (UTC -4)
On Pagan’s value as a corner of i whole-heartedly agree.
Ceetar
11/16/2010-4:58pm at 4:58 pm (UTC -4)
honestly that’s not even that bad. The two guys at top have heavily park favored numbers.
Wasn’t Pagan pretty high in offensive WAR as well?
The argument to move Pagan is a poor one though. You’re probably not going to b e able to upgrade CF, so the only way to upgrade, if you choose to upgrade, is Beltran in CF. if you’re not going to upgrade then it doesn’t matter, offensively, where the two are standing defensively.
Mr North Jersey
11/16/2010-5:07pm at 5:07 pm (UTC -4)
The thing is you felt Beltran was not hurting the team defensively last season when he came back.
That idea was a major bone of contention for many.
If you believe that where Pagan and Beltran play on the outfield matters little then I can see your point but the problem is that many don’t believe that.
If Beltran continues to play cf the way he did when he returned then for the team it is better to move beltran to rf and allow Pagan to continue to man cf.
Of course if beltran can return to form defensively then I can understand allowing him to play cf.
He will though have to show he can play cf better than Pagan did in 2009 something that remains to be seen.
TRS86
11/16/2010-10:10pm at 10:10 pm (UTC -4)
I think the point is that regardless if Beltran or Pagan plays CF/RF or RF/CF Pagan would have the same value in the lineup assuming that those 2 are the only options.
TRS86
11/16/2010-10:12pm at 10:12 pm (UTC -4)
I think we all understand that in a world outside of Mets world Pagan’s true value is in CF. Comparing his offensive stats to power hitting LF and RF does not seem very fair at all. It’s not Pagan’s fault that the Mets (if the do) are playing him out of position.
BillPetti
11/17/2010-6:45am at 6:45 am (UTC -4)
No, it’s not his fault, but you can’t get around the fact that a player’s worth is dependent on where they play. The same statistics aren’t as valuable at one position versus another.
The Mets are not competing for a few years, so really it isn’t that big of a deal if they move Pagan to RF for a year. But if people are thinking about Pagan as a longer-term every day player you have to consider the relative value of what he does.
oleosmirf
11/17/2010-8:48am at 8:48 am (UTC -4)
well i would think the plan is to keep Beltran in CF and hope that he plays well enough to get that trade value up. The Mets will then trade Beltran, move Pagan to CF and hopefully F-Mart stayed healthy and productive and is finally ready for the MLB.
Personally i have zero faith in F-Mart but maybe Duda, Kirk or someone else in AAA emerges as the RF of the future this season.
njstuckintx
11/16/2010-10:35am at 10:35 am (UTC -4)
Yeah man, solid stuff, yet again. Someone double his pay!
kingman 26
11/16/2010-11:21am at 11:21 am (UTC -4)
Hey, I am not an atheist–that’s Rusty….just wanted to clarify that, and you most certainly did not offend me!
rustyjr
11/16/2010-11:39am at 11:39 am (UTC -4)
I find king very offensive lol
kingman 26
11/16/2010-12:12pm at 12:12 pm (UTC -4)
Join the ever-expanding club!!
njstuckintx
11/16/2010-3:26pm at 3:26 pm (UTC -4)
I couldn’t remember which it was so I threw a dart. Hit the wrong board. oops!
stickguy
11/16/2010-10:36am at 10:36 am (UTC -4)
Excellent post. And considering two of my pet theories so far this off season have been the 4 man OF rotation (assuimng beltran and Pagan still here) with Duda getting the bulk of the time vs. RHP, and also the trade Pagan if his value is high (being overrated), spot on dude!
I also am still high on Duda. Not super graceful in the OF, but he was doing pretty good getting to balls last year, is quicker than he looks, and has a great arm. Needs some work, but has potential. And I think the bat is going to be special.
also, Nick Evans also puts up #s vs. LHP like that Ballentine guy you mentioned. Is there really a difference? Does beer man have really good D or something?
Right now, based on the current available roster, if the OF ends up being the 5 guys in your chart, I got no problem with that. As long as they add a 2B that can hit (even if it is a murphy/turner platoon), it should be a solid line up.
assuming, of course, they eventually find a new manager and he knows how to best use his players!
metsfan2011
11/16/2010-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
Evans is really good against lefties, but not Balentien good. Balentien also has a strong arm, which should serve him well in right field.
stickguy
11/16/2010-10:47am at 10:47 am (UTC -4)
Evans is out of options though. So if you pick up a different guy you wont end up with both of them (whick is sometimes the best way to go).
Fun to speculate now, but I do know that the plans will get thrown into disarray when they start making trades (and I expect to see some of the high minors/early ML guys traded). I hope though that they keep Duda and he develops into a solid enough defender to play in the NL.
metsfan2011
11/16/2010-11:45am at 11:45 am (UTC -4)
possible that Evans could still stick as a RH infield-bat off bench and/or someone could be traded.
TRS86
11/16/2010-11:57am at 11:57 am (UTC -4)
Yup, basically Evans is taking Tatis’s spot and Duda would be taking Cat’s spot.
metsfan4decades
11/16/2010-12:00pm at 12:00 pm (UTC -4)
What was good about Tatis is you could use him just about anywhere other than CF or catcher, if you had to. Would be hard to come up with someone like that again.
But…if the BU player’s bats are more serviceable than what we’ve seen in the past few years (Cora, Reed, can’t remember them all), that likely trumps defense BU at some positions.
TRS86
11/16/2010-12:03pm at 12:03 pm (UTC -4)
You have Murphy and that is pretty damn close. Again, he does not have to be stellar but he can play defense most likely just as well as the 2010 version of Tatis at 1b, 2B, 3B, LF, RF. So the only thing he could not do would be stand at SS. Evans also can play 1B, 3B, LF and RF. Honestly I hope that Duda starts in AAA. I know Stick will come after me for such.
metsfan4decades
11/16/2010-12:04pm at 12:04 pm (UTC -4)
You know I’m never going to wrap my brain around seeing Murphy in LF ever again.
metsfan4decades
11/16/2010-12:06pm at 12:06 pm (UTC -4)
And yeah…I’ve always like Evans. I’d like to see what he can bring if given the chance to make the team as a bench player.
Not that I don’t think Duda has some potential too. But along with you, unless we see some trades, I think Duda starts out in the minors.
TRS86
11/16/2010-12:09pm at 12:09 pm (UTC -4)
I know those bad plays stick out in our mind with Murphy but I think a lot of that was overblown. I don’t think he was nearly as bad as he looked at times. He took bad routes which is likely considering he learned to play the OF during his first trips to the majors.
metsfan4decades
11/16/2010-11:58am at 11:58 am (UTC -4)
Nice analysis. Keep ‘em coming.
Regarding a 5 man OF type of thing….of the 6 mentioned – Bay/Beltran/Pagan/Duda/Evans/Balentien and I correct in that only Evans plays any IF positions? –can’t rightly remember what all Duda can play.
With a 5 man OF, was hoping at least one could play an IF position – or two. Evans can play 1st so there’s Ike’s BU. Does Evans play 3rd at all? How about Duda?
If they do a platoon at 2nd, and neither of those guys can play SS, we’ll need a SS BU as well.
What to do, what to do…
TRS86
11/16/2010-12:07pm at 12:07 pm (UTC -4)
As I mentioned I think Duda starts in AAA.
Bench would be
Tejada/Murphy,Turner, Evans, bu catcher, 5th OF defense guy
metsfan4decades
11/16/2010-12:16pm at 12:16 pm (UTC -4)
Where are you Stick?
I laughed right out loud over on FWICG.com with that Sherman link and ‘unprofessionalism’ in the clubhouse and you’re comment:
‘This is Sherman we are talking about. His source is probably the guy that mops up the bathrooms at the end of the day.’
hahahahaha!
metsfan4decades
11/16/2010-12:25pm at 12:25 pm (UTC -4)
Here’s a comment for you Real over on that thread:
‘Nelson Figueroa is the only person I trust with this.
he made it VERY clear that the Mets players ran the clubhouse. Jerry & company allowed them to play cards, xbox, loud music before games’.
I will never understand this mindset. I’ve been on projects in my professional career with some horrendous deadlines and also fires that cropped up that required round the clock type effort to fix. If we didn’t keep it light and joke around during those stressful times, you probably would have been reading about us as ‘another civil servant goes postal’, type of thing.
TRS86
11/16/2010-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
Well maybe he trust Nelson because he has been in so many damn clubhouses? What is he on clubhouse 113 now?
kingman 26
11/16/2010-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
Here’s what Wright said to Bowa (Bowa’s been a player and a manager–he’s not a writer with no access):
During the conversation, Bowa recalled yesterday, Wright bemoaned that there was “no discipline here whatsoever,” nodding toward a relatively empty bench. That was symbolic of too many players being in the clubhouse rather than in the dugout supporting their teammates.
Bowa said Wright lamented that the coaches were afraid to assert authority over the players to better police such matters. In an e-mail response, Wright said he never questioned his team’s discipline, but that he was “frustrated” and said he probably did mention to Bowa that it was a “pet peeve” when guys are not on the bench.
————————————
Why is this so hard to accept?
It is so very clearly the case.
It is a lazy, slack team of soft, spoiled guys.
metsfan4decades
11/16/2010-12:35pm at 12:35 pm (UTC -4)
Well, if that’s all true then shame on the manager AND the coaches. ‘Afraid to assert authority’? What’s up with that? Guys in the clubhouse and not on the bench? Since when is that ever sanctioned?
I can only hope Sandy picks the best men for these jobs. Focus definitely needs to be brought back front and center. Team isn’t lacking talent. It’s all been a downward spiral since 2007 with no one at the helm. And I’m talking from Omar on down….
stickguy
11/16/2010-12:37pm at 12:37 pm (UTC -4)
well, I said all along that it was all Jerry’s fault. Looks like I was right!
one thing though, when the team is on the field, there are not many players left to be on the bench anyway (with the pitchers out in the BP). And sometimes, guys are inside warming up (in case they have to PH).
Certainly it is nice to have the scrubs and pitchers on the top rail watching the game, but I don’t really see how them not doing it is a reason they lose.
that, and I think it is a major stretch to take wright’s pet peeve and turn it into the conclusion that “It is a lazy, slack team of soft, spoiled guys.”
TRS86
11/16/2010-12:39pm at 12:39 pm (UTC -4)
I got the impression he was talking about during their turn at bat.
kingman 26
11/16/2010-12:44pm at 12:44 pm (UTC -4)
Who else on the team would be a better one to honestly judge the vibe of this group of players?
Who’s better than Wright to pass judgment on this group’s character?
We all search for reasons why a star-studded team with one of the game’s highest payrolls has been mediocre and constantly injured for two years in a row.
The answer is right there.
Thanks to Wright for saying it.
TRS86
11/16/2010-12:38pm at 12:38 pm (UTC -4)
Obviously there is no doubt that the Mets did not perform last year and some of that has to be accredited to a lack of focus and perhaps a faulty clubhouse. Isn’t that why we have a new GM and a new manager? What I don’t get is the need to combine that into a generalization that this team is lazy and soft.
metsfan4decades
11/16/2010-12:47pm at 12:47 pm (UTC -4)
My sentiments exactly. I just don’t see the jump from no focus/rudderless ship to ‘lazy and soft’.
fongy2
11/16/2010-12:50pm at 12:50 pm (UTC -4)
Multi-millionaire veteran players, weak Mgr and Coaches w/o
any great track recored of success AND a GM who wants to
dominate the Clubhouse and headlines…..Throw in an out-of-his-mind Assistant GM who wants to intimidate everyone……
Not a good mix for chemistry and success………
stickguy
11/16/2010-12:33pm at 12:33 pm (UTC -4)
oh, don’t bring that thread over here. I gave all I could to the cause over there.
I like that one poster that thinks because the mets don’t scowl at the opposing team during a game and trash the locker room after every loss is the reason they lose.
kingman 26
11/16/2010-12:35pm at 12:35 pm (UTC -4)
Or as David Wright said, because there is “no discipline here whatsoever.”
But what does Wright know?
metsfan4decades
11/16/2010-12:38pm at 12:38 pm (UTC -4)
No, I’m not disagreeing with you King – or questioning Wright’s comments.
I can believe to an extent how it’s all gotten out of control. That’s why I’m trying to keep an open mind on Collins – even though he isn’t my first choice as manager. If Sandy believes he’s the right man for the job with this current team, I’m willing to see where that takes us.
stickguy
11/16/2010-12:50pm at 12:50 pm (UTC -4)
Keep in mind that a team is a very small number of people. And only people have personalities, a team does not.
The clubhouse (team) is what, about 30 people? Players and coaching staff.
the manager is going to be new. Many (most? all?) coaches will be new. Even the clubhouse guy will be new! and of course, the FO staff (the ones that pick everyone else, and define the team way of doing things)
roughly 1/4 to 1/3 (6-8) of the roster turns over every year. More new.
so that leaves roughly 17-19 players at most returning from the old dysfunctional group (the lazy, spoiled team in Knogs scenerio).
Now, of the current group, how many bad eggs can there really be? Ones that are leading the team into the abyss? A couple? If so, then the FO likely is smart enough to purge them from the roster as part of the turnover.
the majority of the rest are probably fine professionals, or impressionable youth that will follow the lead of the manager and veterans.
I have no problem with the professionalism of Wright , Bay and Beltran. If they are here, that is the veteran leadership. So that, combined with new manager and coaches, elimnates any lazy culture.
Problem solved!
TRS86
11/16/2010-12:54pm at 12:54 pm (UTC -4)
I think that is my problem. I don’t understand the need to lump an entire team into one group with the exception of a few favorite players.
Chances are that 90% of the Mets are working their asses off both for themselves and for the team. That 10% can be damaging but I also wonder how much the effects of the 10% had on the rest of the team.
fongy2
11/16/2010-12:56pm at 12:56 pm (UTC -4)
Potential devestating effect. Like mixing 10% water
with a 90% gas fill-up for your vehicle.
TRS86
11/16/2010-1:02pm at 1:02 pm (UTC -4)
As a coach, I know that is sometimes true and sometimes not. Again it depends on who the 10% are.
metsfan4decades
11/16/2010-12:55pm at 12:55 pm (UTC -4)
What you said…..
I keep going back to that confrontation Maine and Jerry had on the mound in that last game he started where Jerry removed him. He threw to what? one batter?
If Warthen saw or knew there was something wrong when he was warming up in the BP (and I have to believe he did), why put Maine out there for one batter? Did he really think that was the best way to handle that? Let him TRY and pitch so he doesn’t have to argue with him before game about scratching him from his start?
The whole scene just epitomized what was wrong last year.
Prismo
11/16/2010-12:57pm at 12:57 pm (UTC -4)
No stick, they’re ALL soft.
Don’t you know? Omar and the Wilpons conspired to sign every soft player in baseball to their roster. Luckily this allowed the Braves, Phillies, Marlins, and Nationals to have all gritty players.
TRS86
11/16/2010-1:04pm at 1:04 pm (UTC -4)
Comeon guys they were not soft when we signed them. Just placing a Mets uniform on turned them soft. Actually they had to place a 2009-2010 Mets uniform on. The other group consisted entirely of chokers.
fongy2
11/16/2010-12:43pm at 12:43 pm (UTC -4)
Damn overrated choker!….He’s no ARod, that’s for sure!
kingman 26
11/16/2010-12:48pm at 12:48 pm (UTC -4)
metsfan4decades
11/16/2010-12:36pm at 12:36 pm (UTC -4)
Reading through that thread was my chuckle for the day.
That and:
‘some of the most “gentlemanly” players ever in the game probably prepared the hardest, on on the field would want to (figuratively) rip the opponents heart out.’
Couldn’t agree more. Lou Gehrig comes to mind.
And sorry for posting responses over here but you know I’m never going to audition for the privilege of posting over there.
stickguy
11/16/2010-12:38pm at 12:38 pm (UTC -4)
I was thinking Tom Seaver when I wrote that comment.
fongy2
11/16/2010-12:45pm at 12:45 pm (UTC -4)
Lou Gehrig????…..
metsfan4decades
11/16/2010-12:50pm at 12:50 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, Gehrig. Read several of his biographies and that’s the number one reason he didn’t like Babe Ruth. (well that and their wives had some problem when they played in Japan….)
He hated the loose, joking around type attitude Ruth had. He believed you came to play every day, you prepared and you played hard. He called his managers and coaches ‘Mr.’ but he’d be the first to go into second with his spikes high.
fongy2
11/16/2010-12:52pm at 12:52 pm (UTC -4)
I know dear……..You just threw me for a second…..
We’re going back along way with The Iron Horse.
stickguy
11/16/2010-12:54pm at 12:54 pm (UTC -4)
she saw him play live, so we have to let her have this one.
fongy2
11/16/2010-12:57pm at 12:57 pm (UTC -4)
Thats just wrong homey!….
b/t/w…Bark, bark, bark…
stickguy
11/16/2010-1:05pm at 1:05 pm (UTC -4)
Be careful. looks like my avatar has about 60 pounds on yours.
metsfan4decades
11/16/2010-1:08pm at 1:08 pm (UTC -4)
Oh….that is just cruel, stick….
j/k
fongy2
11/16/2010-1:40pm at 1:40 pm (UTC -4)
yeah but Otto’s like the Manny Paquiao of the
35lb doggie weight class!
kingman 26
11/16/2010-12:50pm at 12:50 pm (UTC -4)
Joe DiMaggio.
Walter Payton.
fongy2
11/16/2010-12:54pm at 12:54 pm (UTC -4)
My favorite football player ever. As a little kid playing stratomatic football I’d always take The Steelers as a team BUT trade Franco’s card for Payton’s……
b/t/w my friend, On the money from the earlier thread about Swan and Dougie Flynn. All-time underrated Metsies!
kingman 26
11/16/2010-1:04pm at 1:04 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed!
I read Payton’s autobio Sweetness as a kid and always loved him.
One of the all-time great people in sports.
metro
11/16/2010-12:25pm at 12:25 pm (UTC -4)
Cool piece but Balentien signed with a Japanese team
Prismo
11/16/2010-12:26pm at 12:26 pm (UTC -4)
oh snap!
metsfan4decades
11/16/2010-12:28pm at 12:28 pm (UTC -4)
Dang…it would almost have to be a full time job to stay on top of who is going where anymore.
fongy2
11/16/2010-12:46pm at 12:46 pm (UTC -4)
Sign Kenny Powders……..Powers…………ehhh…Powders.
metsfan2011
11/16/2010-1:37pm at 1:37 pm (UTC -4)
I suspect he’d come back if given a real shot at starting job in the U.S.A.
TRS86
11/16/2010-1:48pm at 1:48 pm (UTC -4)
If his contract allows as such.
kingman 26
11/16/2010-12:33pm at 12:33 pm (UTC -4)
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/mets/bowa_terry_discipline_would_be_good_oyahCHxmgzpEgma3qYqIcN
Read the words of Bowa and Wright, not the words of the columnist.
stickguy
11/16/2010-12:41pm at 12:41 pm (UTC -4)
Bowa was not here, remember that.
but even accepting everything here as gospel, the problem has been resolved. It is up to the manager and the coaches to prepare the team and instill discipline and focus.
The Met coaching staff and manager were worthless last year. They are now gone. And I find it very unlikely that ALderson installs a new regime that will be afraid of the players.
so problem solved. Now tell Wright to actually bust his ass running to 1B every time he hits the ball, before he calls out anyone else for slacking.
Prismo
11/16/2010-12:42pm at 12:42 pm (UTC -4)
+10000
Prismo
11/16/2010-12:41pm at 12:41 pm (UTC -4)
You should read it too Kingman.
“Wright said he never questioned his team’s discipline, but that he was “frustrated””
NEVER questioned his team’s discipline. To me, this is a clear case of a LEADERSHIP issue – of Jerry and crew not knowing how to discipline a team.
kingman 26
11/16/2010-12:47pm at 12:47 pm (UTC -4)
Uh, the quote was there is “no discipline here whatsoever.”
What you cite is when he was backtracking later on after being asked about it….
TRS86
11/16/2010-12:50pm at 12:50 pm (UTC -4)
OK so which is it? Was the first one an exaggeration or the 2nd one covering his ass? Again we don’t know because we were not there. What we do know is that the entire team slumped offensively in the 2nd half. Perhaps clubhouse issues were part of the reason for the slump.
Prismo
11/16/2010-12:58pm at 12:58 pm (UTC -4)
It’s the one that fits Kingman’s personal views more. Just like the “correct” analysis of a player.
(I’m starting to cross the line, I know)
kingman 26
11/16/2010-1:06pm at 1:06 pm (UTC -4)
LOL!!
Or it could be the one which matches what we have seen on the field for two years? The reason why we could not win one more game in 2007 and/or 2008?
Hey, I never get offended by this.
It is just increasingly amusing how defensive some of you get when Met players are criticized, as if they are your family members or something.
TRS86
11/16/2010-1:11pm at 1:11 pm (UTC -4)
Kingman if you notice all of this “group” that you are making spend their fair share of time criticizing current Mets players. Where we differ usually is in who, what, when, where and how many. Not a big issue. Especially not enough to start grouping us.
Just because some of us have “not seen the light” yet does not make us any more ill-informed or any more of a flawed group.
Prismo
11/16/2010-1:17pm at 1:17 pm (UTC -4)
I only defend the ones who deserve to be defended.
I can hugely criticize a large group of the 2010 Mets if you wish. Jerry, HoJo, Castillo, Perez, Francoeur, Bay, Cora, everyone who played 1B before Ike, Tejada
That’s a significant portion of the coaching staff and roster – just off the top of my head.
Just because I don’t think the *entire* team is soft and crappy and wimpy because they finished slightly below .500 doesn’t mean I’m wrong.
TRS86
11/16/2010-1:24pm at 1:24 pm (UTC -4)
+ some random number that makes me look cool.
I too have tried to trade Beltran and Reyes, dump Castillo and Perez, fired Jerry, Hojo, Omar. I do defend Bay because I think his career speaks to this being more of a fluke than a trend, I think Frenchy’s value was overstated but believe he played himself into and out of playing time. I like Ike but would consider moving him in the right deal ….
Again, as posters we are all different. There are no sides. It’s not good vs evil or lazy vs gritty.
stickguy
11/16/2010-1:03pm at 1:03 pm (UTC -4)
ignoring the whole chicken/egg concept of clubhouse chemistry, etc., I am having trouble figuring out how Jerry not enforcing any discipline in the 2nd half led to a team wide offensive slump?
Maybe Hojo being useless? Was that it? But all of a sudden, everyone on the team forgot how to hit?
I still have a hard time believing that guys in the majors, that live and die with their stats, would just say screw it, I don’t want to bother preparing for a game, and not caring if they got hits or not. Especially considering how many were fighting for contracts, staying in the majors, starting jobs, etc.
Now, if the problem was Hojo not giving them what they needed to be successful, good thing there will be a new hitting coach next year. And with the new regime in place, I highly doubt that you will ever be able to complain that the team is not preparing enough.
TRS86
11/16/2010-1:06pm at 1:06 pm (UTC -4)
That truly is the mystery. Could it be that they started pressing? That they gave up on the season? That there were so many issues going on that they could not focus? A perhaps divided clubhouse? Who the hell knows. I can’t think that it’s just random though that the entire team slumped around the same time.
Ceetar
11/16/2010-1:33pm at 1:33 pm (UTC -4)
Who knows? It’s my thought that while players prepare themselves and what not, little things add up that the manager/coach does wrong. Whether it’s a delivery tick that Warthen doesn’t catch and festers for start after start.
Maybe the preparation that happens in spring by players on their own and in laxer setting is good, with other trainers around. once the games start, the organizational structure of BP isn’t as good, and the manager fails to reinforce the things that need to reinforce, or focuses on things like opposite field drills, or doesn’t have enough infield drills.
Ballplayers know how to go all out, know how to play baseball, but even the best may be bad at knowing when to cool down, or relax. Wright begs into the lineup every single day, but it’s the managers job over 162 games to give him a day off herea nd there if he feels it helps, and that includes asking him to just sit down and not take BP or not run. true rest.
like in everything else in life, when you get excited for something, it’s easy to go gung ho at it..but then it drags on for 6 months, and it’s hard to temper that enthusiasm to last for 6 months. and these are ball players, that are actually people too.
Ever have a week that you’re just feeling lazy and sluggish? I’m sure Reyes does too. Look for that as a leader, cheer him up, give him rest, maybe get some fun into the day. “Hey, instead of shagging flies, let’s go play laser tag!” or something.
The Mets came out of the break with two players rushed back from injury and were struggling, suddenly the season feels years long and they’re struggling and pressing and trying to overcompensate. before you know it, things are disasterous and no one person knows what to do to make it better.
wannybackstra
11/16/2010-2:56pm at 2:56 pm (UTC -4)
Wright’s first statement is hardly ambiguous. Kingman’s interpretation is certainly reasonable and is likely.
In my world, people are often confronted with inconsistent their own statements for interpretation by others and it seems in all likelihood that a clear, unambiguous and damaging statement will almost always be viewed as credible.
kingman 26
11/16/2010-3:03pm at 3:03 pm (UTC -4)
You are one of the few here whose agreement makes me smile.
I appreciate that.
Of course his first statement to a veteran star player and manager was what he really thought and the second email response to a reporter was backtracking.
wannybackstra
11/16/2010-3:06pm at 3:06 pm (UTC -4)
I can’t envision any other reasonable interpretation.
kingman 26
11/16/2010-3:17pm at 3:17 pm (UTC -4)
Neither can I.
Hey, I love this team and have since I was about 3; but there has been something seriously amiss the last two years, and if Wright’s comments highlight it for Alderson and the Wilpons to see and correct, wonderful!
If this type of thing is why Alderson is taking his time with the manager hunt, and considering an experienced supposed hardass like Collins, great. He can whip the team into motivated shape for a couple of years while Backman/Teufel/whoever gets more experience for the long term.
stickguy
11/16/2010-3:37pm at 3:37 pm (UTC -4)
we went through this during the season, remember? You finally came on board.
Jerry and the Keystone Koaches was the problem. The problem has been cut out of th epatient. Minor remaining malignancies (like Castillo and Perez) are scheduled to be removed in a follow up surgery.
Problem resolved.
Now, if you want to pin the blame beyond that (and downgrade hope for the future) on Reyes, then we have more to discuss!
stickguy
11/16/2010-3:44pm at 3:44 pm (UTC -4)
Oh, and if you guys are right, then we can forever put aside and captain talk for #5. Because he is the ranking veteran on this team, and he is pretty much calling himself out as not being able to provide any player control or leadership.
kingman 26
11/16/2010-3:45pm at 3:45 pm (UTC -4)
Well, maybe they were the problem, maybe not.
As for “we have more to discuss!”–I think you’ll enjoy tomorrow morning’s opinion piece!!
You are one of the people it’s worth hanging our here for.
Ceetar
11/16/2010-3:49pm at 3:49 pm (UTC -4)
Or maybe having a clown like Jerry in the dugout (who didn’t want Wright to be a captain) undermined _Wright’s_ Authority to police such things as that. Since as he pointed out it’s mainly a pet peeve, it’s not something that’s mandatory or ‘wrong’. Wright doesn’t seem to realize yet that he could just have taken the team (or he’s too respectful of the manager to take the team from under him) and lead it. Maybe a big fat C would’ve actually helped that.
kingman 26
11/16/2010-4:24pm at 4:24 pm (UTC -4)
Ceetar, these are good points.
But Wright is still pretty young.
Some of these guys might be unreachable.
I hope we find out in 2011.
And I agree Wright should be given the “C”.
But the team having no discipline isn’t a pet peeve. It’s a cancer that has afflicted the team since spring training 2009.
Ceetar
11/16/2010-4:44pm at 4:44 pm (UTC -4)
The think the majority of people, not just baseball players here, will react to a lack of discipline and take advantage of it.
If my boss doesn’t check in with me, roughly ever, I’m not likely to work as hard. If there is no hard and fast check in for lunch, I’m more apt to take a 70 minute lunch hour. I have no problem limiting that to 60, if it’s important, if I need to get back for am eeting, if the bosses say so.
I don’t believe that 10 minutes makes me a worse employee, or keeps me from getting done what I need to do. I imagine it’s the same in baseball world. Some guys would rather be in the clubhouse. some would rather sit on the bench. Some thing it’s okay to show up at the normal time, others thing if you don’t get there early you’re late. (This is/was a Coughlin thing right?)
And just like everywhere else, people have different opinions, and feel their opinion is the “right” way.
You site one example of Castillo being in the clubhousewhen he was wanted to hit (just using this because I can remember, not specifying people here, or defending/attacking castillo, just an example to use). It’s certainly possible he assumed he wasn’t going to be used, he hadn’t been used, maybe he didn’t imagine it was that late in the inning or that if Manuel had wanted him, he would’ve told him so before hand (a heads up “I may use you this inning” would probably be a helpful thing in general.). Castillo thought “The clubhouse is one of the areas I’m allowed in during the game.” and went there. Maybe he had a headache and wanted away from the noise. maybe he needed a drink and lingered.
But it’s up the manager to set these boundaries. It’s very likely Castillo wouldn’t think twice about staying in the bench if it’d been set down as the way things were down around here.
I’m generalizing here. not trying to say specifically “It was okay to go the the clubhouse” or not. just trying to illustrate how jumbled or missing leadership issues trickle down.
stickguy
11/16/2010-5:08pm at 5:08 pm (UTC -4)
IOW, I was right, it was all Jerry’s fault!
Mr North Jersey
11/16/2010-1:05pm at 1:05 pm (UTC -4)
I agree with you on the leadership issue Prismo. Both Manuel and Wright need to be held responsible for such a thing.
metro
11/16/2010-12:34pm at 12:34 pm (UTC -4)
There are a few really nice minor league FA like Balentien available. Wilkin De La Rosa formerly of the Yankees, Joe Bisenius (his minor league track/stuff is SHOCKINGLY similar to Bobby Parnell), I also like Clay Zapada and James Skelton
metsfan4decades
11/16/2010-12:41pm at 12:41 pm (UTC -4)
Regarding Castillo….Ted Berg has a post up about a Murphy/Turner platoon there that’s worth the read. He believes the duo would be a ‘massive’ upgrade offensively over what we had in 2010. Only question is the defense….
http://www.tedquarters.net/2010/11/16/murphman-turner-overdrive/
stickguy
11/16/2010-12:58pm at 12:58 pm (UTC -4)
he stole that from me! I posted that same idea a couple of days ago. And I need to check, it might have eben over at his site! Or maybe on MMO, I get confused.
without even looking at that link, can tell you that last year Turner had a 1.037 AAA OPS vs. LHP last year (99 ABs, not a huge sample, but decent enough).
he has to at least be considered for the BU MI role (Cora at 1/4 the price but able to hit).
TRS86
11/16/2010-1:08pm at 1:08 pm (UTC -4)
I really see no down side to carrying Turner on next year’s team. I was fine with Cora on a veteran team expecting to contend. Having a team full of youngins who could still compete does not leave a place for a Cora or Eckencrappy.
oleosmirf
11/16/2010-3:36pm at 3:36 pm (UTC -4)
to me Murphy/Turner is the best option for 2B given that all our very limited financial resources need to be spent on pitching.
njstuckintx
11/16/2010-3:38pm at 3:38 pm (UTC -4)
+ an Amen.
stickguy
11/16/2010-3:42pm at 3:42 pm (UTC -4)
and 2 hail marys
GravediggerHebner
11/16/2010-4:00pm at 4:00 pm (UTC -4)
Make mine a bloody Mary.
njstuckintx
11/16/2010-4:15pm at 4:15 pm (UTC -4)
A bloody hail mary. ummmm…. sacrilicious…
metsfan4decades
11/16/2010-3:31pm at 3:31 pm (UTC -4)
Here we go….over on MLBTR:
Diamondbacks Listening On Justin Upton
What would it take for the Mets to get Upton?
I see AA has had a extensive debate going on about this today.
njstuckintx
11/16/2010-3:33pm at 3:33 pm (UTC -4)
Can Upton Pitch? ;P
stickguy
11/16/2010-3:38pm at 3:38 pm (UTC -4)
recently, he has barely been able to play the OF productively.
njstuckintx
11/16/2010-3:41pm at 3:41 pm (UTC -4)
Then i don’t understand the question, unless the thinking is paying peanuts to get Upton as a potential high reward type guy. I wouldn’t be against it, but if you look at the trend of Uptons, they seem to start great and trend downward, quickly.
metsfan4decades
11/16/2010-4:07pm at 4:07 pm (UTC -4)
What? I must be missing something b/c last time I checked, his numbers for a 23 year old were pretty impressive.
kistics
11/16/2010-3:34pm at 3:34 pm (UTC -4)
Where’s Carter in all this?
stickguy
11/16/2010-3:39pm at 3:39 pm (UTC -4)
Gary? Still waiting to be scheduled for a 1st interview I think.
IUf you mean Chris “the animal”, probably having his agent calling around, trying to line up a job for next year after teh Mets let him go.
njstuckintx
11/16/2010-3:42pm at 3:42 pm (UTC -4)
He’s watching Sly’s “Over the Top” movie for ways to improve his arm strength. Drinking Motor oil and such.
kistics
11/16/2010-3:43pm at 3:43 pm (UTC -4)
Mets let him go? When was this?
stickguy
11/16/2010-3:50pm at 3:50 pm (UTC -4)
somewhere between soon and ST.
He is out of options. So unless he gets moved in a trade he will hit ST having to make the OD roster, or get cut loose.
oleosmirf
11/16/2010-3:34pm at 3:34 pm (UTC -4)
its silly to trade Pagan at this point unless a team is willing to overpay for him. I understand Pagan had a bad last month and a half but that doesn’t mean he’s a AAAA player. The way Pagan has played the past 2 seasons definitely warrants him to be one of our starting OF and should be playing everyday at CF or RF until he plays himself out of the lineup or someone else plays themselves into it.
stickguy
11/16/2010-3:41pm at 3:41 pm (UTC -4)
WHile there is some valid debate about just how good Pagan is, I think everyone realizes he is valuable. And I dont think anyone disagrees that he should only be traded if they get a good return back. Certainly not trading just to get rid of him (that would be castillo and Perez)
GravediggerHebner
11/16/2010-3:45pm at 3:45 pm (UTC -4)
I agree. I think the subtext of it all is to sell high, at least I’ve believed that throughout the discussions.
metsfan4decades
11/16/2010-4:09pm at 4:09 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed.
And I would release Perez, just to get rid of him – never mind a trade. I know, I know, bad business sense but still. This coming from one of the two Met fans who actually wanted Omar to sign Perez. Boy, I could not have been more wrong….
Mr North Jersey
11/16/2010-5:25pm at 5:25 pm (UTC -4)
http://twitter.com/#!/AdamRubinESPN/status/4660573480423424
Hope to have finalists announced by end of the night.
OK so stage 2 to begin soon great
stickguy
11/16/2010-5:49pm at 5:49 pm (UTC -4)
Probably just means that they took Hurdle off the list, cutting the pool from 20 to 19!
sorry. couldn’t resist.
Mr North Jersey
11/16/2010-5:52pm at 5:52 pm (UTC -4)
I’d cue the drumroll but that was just pathetic.
GravediggerHebner
11/16/2010-6:13pm at 6:13 pm (UTC -4)
His name is Dan Uggla and he won’t be part of the Mets 2B solution he’ll still be a problem for them having been traded within the division to the Braves.
Mr North Jersey
11/16/2010-6:16pm at 6:16 pm (UTC -4)
Lineup lookin nice for 2011.
fongy2
11/16/2010-6:22pm at 6:22 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t fear Dan Uggla. He’ll lose as many games for them in the
field (especially if he stays @2B) as he’ll win with his bat.
Dunn and Infante are nice players rec’d by The Marlins.
oleosmirf
11/16/2010-6:45pm at 6:45 pm (UTC -4)
eh Infante is nothing special. he’ll never approach those numbers again. an absolute steal for the Bravos
njstuckintx
11/16/2010-7:35pm at 7:35 pm (UTC -4)
I’d think they’d move him to third or even LF.
wannybackstra
11/16/2010-6:24pm at 6:24 pm (UTC -4)
I know Infante just had a career season but it was likely just that. The return seems a little light for Uggla (Infante and Mike Dunn).
fongy2
11/16/2010-6:26pm at 6:26 pm (UTC -4)
I’ll tell ya I wouldn,t mind Infante @2B for us.
Dunn is gonna be a big time reliever BUT you’re right.
Thing is though that along w/Uggla comes his big fat salary
So…….
njstuckintx
11/16/2010-7:34pm at 7:34 pm (UTC -4)
That’s one of the few detriments i could come up with on Uggly. What a light return and the Bravos are not going to be pushovers in 2011.
oleosmirf
11/16/2010-9:16pm at 9:16 pm (UTC -4)
well i dont expect Uggla to return to the Braves next season. This is most likely a one year rental and they will be very glad to pick up the type A compensation.
njstuckintx
11/16/2010-8:20pm at 8:20 pm (UTC -4)
Thoughts on Jeff Francis?
Also, thoughts on the Marlins, as it seems as if there i a prize for completing all offseason moves in the fastest manner possible.
njstuckintx
11/16/2010-8:22pm at 8:22 pm (UTC -4)
Per MLBTR, per Davidoff & Martino.
Tim Collins, Chip Hale, Bob Melvin, and Wally Backman.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/11/mets-bring-back-four-for-next-round-of-interviews.html
njstuckintx
11/16/2010-8:23pm at 8:23 pm (UTC -4)
Love the Tim Collins reference.
metsfan4decades
11/16/2010-9:16pm at 9:16 pm (UTC -4)
Well….just goes to show how relevant the Mets are when MLBTRs can’t even get our managerial candidates right.
Surprised to see Wally on the list of finalists but I’m not opposed to that.
I wonder where these guys would shake out if Met fans were polled on their choice? I can’t really make up my mind right now. I’m going with the ‘Sandy must know what he’s doing’ mindset until proven otherwise.
In other words, whoever they decide on, I’ll keep an open mind.
oleosmirf
11/16/2010-9:37pm at 9:37 pm (UTC -4)
i’m open to whatever Sandy decides and while I would like to see Chip Hale get the nod, this Joel Sherman article really got me thinking that we need more of hard ass.
http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/hardball/decision_time_for_the_mets_uDrSs1YaiIMWJQM6K7ADmO
metsfan4decades
11/16/2010-9:25pm at 9:25 pm (UTC -4)
On that Uggla trade…..I’m surprised that’s all the Marlins settled for, even though he’s a one year rental. Sometimes, some of these trades don’t make much sense to me. Johan comes to mind. IMO, that was a steal at that time, for the Mets.
Just goes to show unless you pick up the phone and ask, or answer the phone and listen, you really won’t know what some team will be willing to give up or get back in any trade.
That’s what makes this so fun!
njstuckintx
11/16/2010-9:56pm at 9:56 pm (UTC -4)
Well, it plays out like this for them (sorta) Uggla’s production & salary ended up equaling an upgrade at catcher (via money to sign Buck), 2B in Infante and yet another BP flamethrower. And by moving quickly on Buck before the Sox got involved, it probably kept the cost down a little.
I still think they could have gotten more, but the above works for them and now they actually have an excess of BP arms that they can end up flipping Nunez or another to bring something back.
For however much it makes no sense, the marlins have not been stupid in their moves. Cheap, yes. Stupid, no.