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dan warthen will remain #mets pitching coach. collins friend debus from LA in mix for staff.less than a minute ago via webJon HeymanSI_JonHeyman
11/22/2010-8:30am at 8:30 am (UTC -4)
That’s a decision I’m down on
11/22/2010-8:36am at 8:36 am (UTC -4)
11/22/2010-8:45am at 8:45 am (UTC -4)
if down on means not so good, then agreed.
11/22/2010-8:37am at 8:37 am (UTC -4)
As long as hojo isnt remaining im happy.
Warthen is highly regarded from our #1 pitcher going into next season…no way he gets canned
11/22/2010-8:40am at 8:40 am (UTC -4)
I see him more as a roving instructor – he’s good with young arms
11/22/2010-8:42am at 8:42 am (UTC -4)
I can’t say that he is good with young or old arms. What I do know is that with a rag tag group last year we had one of the best pitching staffs in the NL. Was it because of him? Nope but he as the pitching coach has to get a lot of the credit either way.
Yes, but when you don’t play the guys that you didn’t do well with, of course the staff numbers look better.
But besides Maine and Perez, who both took career-diving landslides under his watch, the biggest thing I look at is how Warthen did when Pelfrey and Niese both hit down periods/dead arm periods. Poorly, and it lasted too long.
And that’s the difference between a good coach and a bad. Especially on this team, which has had a tendency to let things spiral out of control.
11/22/2010-8:52am at 8:52 am (UTC -4)
End product. Was pitching a weakness last year? Was hitting a weakness last year?
And to blame Perez or Maine on Warthen? The hell with that.
11/22/2010-8:55am at 8:55 am (UTC -4)
If he gets the good, he gets the bad as well.
If they are keeping him, though, I wonder if or how his philosophy will change with Sandy’s mentality/vision.
11/22/2010-8:58am at 8:58 am (UTC -4)
You can’t blame him for the injuries and lack of off-season ethics. I guess you could but I choose not to.
11/22/2010-9:02am at 9:02 am (UTC -4)
How can you not put blame on a coaching staff for work ethic? I understand that 100% of the blame for work ethic isn’t their fault, but isn’t that the job of the coaches to teach and motivate?
11/22/2010-9:03am at 9:03 am (UTC -4)
Perez had great offseason ethics. I don’t know what Maine did, but the biggest problem there was not identifying he was still injured nearly a year after the surgery. Maine was floundering looking for answers, and it was Warthen’s job to give them.
The road splits are bad too. I could go on and on with things that he’s done badly, and I just might.
11/22/2010-9:07am at 9:07 am (UTC -4)
“Perez had great offseason ethics.”
Why do you write things like this?
And Pelf rebounded nicely, if you check his game logs.
11/22/2010-9:16am at 9:16 am (UTC -4)
ollie spent a good chunk of the winter in Arizona at some “boot camp” working on mental, physical and conditioning (along with pitching).
That seems pretty dedicated to me. He could of sat at home on his fat Arse watching TV and enjoying the beach.
11/22/2010-9:21am at 9:21 am (UTC -4)
He gets TV on the beach? Sweet…
people gave credit to warthen for “improving” oliver last year with the whole moving to the center of the pitchers mound thing which was effective for a while.
But injuries killed their careers…nothing warthen could do about that.
11/22/2010-9:04am at 9:04 am (UTC -4)
Maine was injured the whole time, but he could’ve worked with arm strength and conditioning with Perez. not just “well uh, try standing over there. It’ll confuse them for a little while.” He seemed to have nothing useful to contribute to the art of pitching.
11/22/2010-9:08am at 9:08 am (UTC -4)
Perez could have spent the season in AAA, tried to learn new pitches or better control, and earned his money.
Yes, injuries (or stopping PEDs) have ruined him, but he did less than nothing to willingly get his career back on track.
3-4 months in the minors and he could have learned another pitch and mastered it.
He is VERY complicit in his disaster of a current state.
His ethics being “great”? LOL!
11/22/2010-9:10am at 9:10 am (UTC -4)
Dude, he worked all offseason, was in shape, came into Spring working hard. There’s not a whole lot more a pitcher is expected to do.
But this isn’t about Ollie, it’s about what Warthen did with what he was presented. He keep the guys that were good doing well for the most part, and the guys that struggled, he made worse.
11/22/2010-9:12am at 9:12 am (UTC -4)
I totally agree that perez’ selfish attitude went along way to short handing the team…again something else that warthen had no control with.
From what I understand, perez isnt doing very well in the mexican league either. Its time to just cut bait with that loser and move on imo
11/22/2010-9:14am at 9:14 am (UTC -4)
How do you know what he did all offseason?
If he worked hard, obviously it was not in areas which accomplished ANYTHING.
And again, do you not agree that had Ollie gone to AAA when asked, he MIGHT have been able to work on some aspects of his overall game and improve? He sat on the bench, wasted a roster spot, stole his money, and contributed to the team’s overall malaise in every way possible.
How can you not see that defending Ollie is playing a weak hand which is not winnable in any way? He is a bum, in all baseball-related ways. Mentally, physically, as a teammate, as an employee.
11/22/2010-9:15am at 9:15 am (UTC -4)
He’s doing terribly in the Mexican league. Because a scatter-armed pitcher with no secondary stuff who throws 89 tops is not a serious pitcher.
Hey, I was one of the few who was OK with his signing, but defending him now is, well, I cannot use the words here…..
The Mets didn’t have a good attitude either.
A failure is a failure. Ollie _was_ a good pitcher, and Warthen had nothing to say to help him, at all. Did he even try, or did he just bury him in the bullpen and let him and Omar fight it out about demotion?
Maybe with Collins the guy Warthen will step up and actually go out to the mound and pay attention when his pitchers are tipping their pitches. (He should be looking for that just as much as the opposing team is. Same with baserunning tells.) Why wait for Santana to get back and look at tape between starts to figure it out?
11/22/2010-8:59am at 8:59 am (UTC -4)
Nice tweet too Ceetar. Sounds like something from Metsblog. Don’t you think you are overreacting a little to Warthen? Just settle down and see if Alderson has a plan. I am going to bet that if Warthen was retained there is a reason for it.
11/22/2010-9:01am at 9:01 am (UTC -4)
the honeymoon has been over for a long time for the die hards, based on the manager search!
MF posted a comment last night from some guy (that seemed serious) about Alderson and the whole gang needed to be fired (wilpon making a statement) over hiring collins!
11/22/2010-9:05am at 9:05 am (UTC -4)
I hope the reason for it is he hasn’t yet looked at the road statistics or the schedule to realize they play half the games there.
Keeping Warthen, based on staff ERA, is faulty logic. It’s almost as bad as keeping Manuel.
11/22/2010-10:16am at 10:16 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, I am sure Sandy never thought to look into those. Just made a rash decision to keep a crappy coach.
The real question is who is collins going to bring in for his staff
Hojo is highly regarded by our #1 hitter. Should he stay too?
no, they both did bad jobs.
11/22/2010-8:44am at 8:44 am (UTC -4)
11/22/2010-8:47am at 8:47 am (UTC -4)
And it’s much more of a rabid approval. Pelfrey gave Warthen the thumbs up, but David basically said he’d work with HoJo this offseason even if he wasn’t retained.
11/22/2010-9:11am at 9:11 am (UTC -4)
Irrelevant point. Our number one hitter was BETTER 3–4 years ago.
Dickey and Pelf weren’t.
Warthen cobbled together a fine season from a very mediocre group, on paper. He also got some good performances out of some pretty crappy guys in the pen; albeit some for short times, but still, overall, a good job–the ONE area of the team which did not suck or regress, as, over the last two years, hitting, fielding, baserunning, conditioning, attitude, etc., all clearly did.
Congratulations, Daddy! Hope Mama and daughter are doing fine.
Both are doing very well
Papa Dirty! Woe it is really u?
lol…in the cyber flesh? lol
Yep…worlds youngest met fan 0yrs 5days lol
Ahhhh… God Bless
11/22/2010-8:46am at 8:46 am (UTC -4)
What’s the easiest Mets name for a baby to say as their first word. hmmm..
Congratulations sir have you hung the rusty Staub mobile over the crib yet ?
11/22/2010-8:51am at 8:51 am (UTC -4)
@ nj and jerz – thanks guys…any tips or heads up, please feel free to share lol
@ ceet – lol im sure ill find out soon…id bet it would be ike lol
@ rusty – lol…didnt see it in the mets store but she has a mets blanket and a reyes bobble head
11/22/2010-8:56am at 8:56 am (UTC -4)
My only tip is whatever they say is the best way to parent in a book is probably wrong.
Nice!! Congrats, Dirty!
11/22/2010-9:00am at 9:00 am (UTC -4)
@ metsgirl – Thanks!
@ nj – lol..you recommend to wing it lol
It’s good to know what tricks worked for others, but in the end, you’ll totally be winging it. Did it with our first and am doing the same with our second.
11/22/2010-10:07am at 10:07 am (UTC -4)
Mentioned it on the other thread, but in case you did not see it, very best to you and your family Dirty.
11/22/2010-11:57am at 11:57 am (UTC -4)
The Best advice I can give you Dirty is record as much as possible.
Get in the habit of carrying a decent small camera hopefully you have a nice model smartphone that takes nice res pics.
Take pics for no reason but that you can. Video is critical also get yourself a nice HD HardDrive Cam and invest in some dvd software and record those moments.
You have no idea how fast they grow. My biggest regret is that back then I didn’t for whatever reason get enough picks of my youngest in her 1st 6 months of life so i have no pics to show my daughter and now outside of video of her coming home from hospital all i have are memories.
I do though have her well documented from Age 1 and up both video n pics.
So believe me when i say your child will love sitting back on a weekend night watching video of her as a baby.
I recommend Flickr which is 20 bucks a year for unlimited space for pics and Youtube accounts plus Setting up a family blog.
This is a big week for you and yours I’ll be smiling come Thursday thinking of you glowing as you show off your newborn to your Family & Friends while you wait for some Turkey dinner. Enjoy it my friend.
God Bless and remember, your wife didn’t give birth to a baby your wife gave birth to a “Die Hard Mets Fan”.
I would have rathered seen a clean slate and bounced Warthen. If he gets credit for the good, he can take heat for 2009 too. and like ceetar said, it took a long time to fix things when mechanics went astray, and it might havebeen the guys in the booth doing the detective work for that!
maybe not a big deal, nothing to freak out about, but not my preference.
but for sure Hojo needs to go. Maybe someone with a clue can de-program wright to get the poison out of his brain.
I too would have just as soon see him gone but I don’t see it as a big deal that he was retained. I have no idea, actually, if he was good or bad. Yeah some guys took too long to adjust but like I said, overall with a patch work group our pitching turned out to be our strength.
The “credit” for that should go to Minaya for grabbing Dickey and then promoting him, and for trusting in Niese to stick in the rotation.
A lot hinges on the two other pitchers in the rotation, but with Warthen, I don’t trust it to be someone that’s not-established or needs a little help. Reclamation projects for instance, probably not a good idea.
11/22/2010-10:17am at 10:17 am (UTC -4)
Right because you know for sure Warthen can’t handle those? What do you really know about Warthen? Hell, what do any of us know?
Well, Warthen staying….that was quick.
Anyone have any idea if that was Collins choice – or the FO told him when he was being hired, Warthen stays – he’s got no say in that?
Chip Hale is staying too, if I’m reading correctly. No problem for me on that decision. Just doesn’t sound like Collins is picking his own troops.
just missing a bench coach and a hitting coach. 1B too, but no one cares about that!
I will assume that the bench guy will be significant, in that it will be the heir apparant if it is wally or Tuefel.
Yeah, the bench guy is probably the most significant “Collins guy” as he’s the one Collins will bounce ideas off of and strategy. (Like how Willie bounced the idea of Floyd bunting off Manuel, that went well right?)
11/22/2010-9:22am at 9:22 am (UTC -4)
I read somewhere that Obi was a good candidate for bench coach. Maybe Mookie back as 1B coach?
11/22/2010-9:23am at 9:23 am (UTC -4)
Heck, hire Olerud for hitting coach, if we want to role with the Mets theme. Or even entice Magadan to come back to Metsville.
can someone please explain how Warthen did a bad job last season???
11/22/2010-9:17am at 9:17 am (UTC -4)
LOL! Good luck with that one!
Pssst—Of course he didn’t.
11/22/2010-9:20am at 9:20 am (UTC -4)
The Mets were 32-49 with a 4.36 ERA and .779 OPS against on the road last season, and I think we all realize that if the Mets were somewhat more acceptable on the road, they’d have competed.
So sure, while the pitching staff overall may have been better, it was their biggest weakness that was the Mets biggest weakness.
Pitching in Citi Field certainly helps, but remember, the other team is pitching there too.
11/22/2010-9:26am at 9:26 am (UTC -4)
That’s 4th in team ERA at home, 12th on the road. in the NL.
Imagine what would happen if some fans got their wish and they moved the fences in at Citi Field? yikes.
11/22/2010-10:18am at 10:18 am (UTC -4)
Can you compare that to most NL teams? Their home and road splits?
11/22/2010-10:28am at 10:28 am (UTC -4)
Compare what exactly? That is the comparison, that they drop 8 places on the road.
the Padres have a 1ERA higher on the road (but the same exact home/road record) but they allow 73 home runs on the road to 66 at home. (The Mets were nearly double on the road. don’t have it open but it was 88-47 or something.
San Fran was #1 pitching, 1 away, 3 home.
Phillie was 3 on the road, 6 at home. 5th overall.
Cubs were 13th overall, 13th at home, 2nd on the road.
Colorado 12th at home, 6th on the road.
This suggest to me that teams that have good pitching, have good pitching. Teams that didn’t ahve good pitching, pitch better in better parks. Despite CBP being a bandbox, the Phillies weren’t that bad at home, because Halladay, etc, are good pitchers, period.
Pelfrey’s road/home splits were the most stark, and that’s saying somethign considering he has a high GB rate, so it shouldn’t even matter.
11/22/2010-10:33am at 10:33 am (UTC -4)
Here, let me help
Braves H: 3.20
Braves A: 3.96
Phillies H: 3.49
Phillies A: 3.90
Cincy H: 3.98
Cincy A: 4.06
Cards H: 2.92
Cards A: 4.27
Giants H: 3.07
Giants A: 3.67
Pads H: 2.92
Pads A: 3.91
Rays H: 3.42
Rays A: 4.17
Twins H: 3.53
Twins A: 4.39
Rangers H: 3.65
Rangers A: 4.24
NL Average: H 3.77, A 4.30
AL Average: H 3.87, A 4.43
11/22/2010-10:36am at 10:36 am (UTC -4)
It appears that you pitch better at home than on the road regardless of what park you pitch in.
11/22/2010-10:46am at 10:46 am (UTC -4)
Which makes the ERAs less useful.
The ranks are telling though. as our individual player splits.
the Phillies, the Cubs, and the Rockies all were better on the road, as compared to the competition, than they were at home.
but teams like the Phillies and Padres, were more consistently at the top of the ERA list whether home or away. The Cubs and Rockies play in band-boxes, and benefited from not playing in them on the road. the Mets were the opposite, benefiting at home from Citi Field, but not so much on the road. I’m sure there are more advanced sabermetric breakdowns for Park Factors on pitching numbers that will show you the same thing, that the Mets pitching and Warthen weren’t that good, they just took advantage of their park.
11/22/2010-11:06am at 11:06 am (UTC -4)
Look at your splits for the Padres.
Pads H: 2.92
Pads A: 3.91
Full run difference as well.
11/22/2010-11:16am at 11:16 am (UTC -4)
Also does that mean that Dave Duncan also did a terrible job? Look at those splits.
11/22/2010-11:18am at 11:18 am (UTC -4)
Yes, but as you said, everyone pitches worse on the road. Just not _as_ bad as the Mets. padres had the best home ERA in baseball, and only drop to 6th on the road. They still pitched well on the road, the Mets didn’t.
11/22/2010-11:21am at 11:21 am (UTC -4)
Also, the Padres record was _exactly_ the same home/road. So they also scored a lot more runs on the road, to counter pitching a little bit worse. Or, pretty much how you’d expect runs to be scored outside of Petco.
I guess you could tie it back to hitting. Did the Mets hit that much worse on the road that they should’ve won more of Pelfrey’s 5 ERA road starts?
11/22/2010-11:23am at 11:23 am (UTC -4)
hitting was pretty close. OPS only slightly higher at home and they hit the same amount of home runs. The reason they lost on the road is because they pitched poorly.
11/22/2010-11:35am at 11:35 am (UTC -4)
Actually considering that they hit better at home in a pitchers park couldn’t you say it was the offense that killed them on the road?
Again, does that mean Dave Duncan stinks too? Lets take a look at clientele as well.
Again, I am not saying Warthen is good or bad, I have no idea. What I do know is that based on an entire season of work with a patch work group the total numbers were good and pitching was by far not our problem last season.
11/22/2010-11:54am at 11:54 am (UTC -4)
You could certainly say Duncan had a bad year last year, if you’re going on performance. the entire team did. Penny, Hawksworth, Lohse..Suppan, Westbrook.. none of them had particularly good years, or didn’t last, or got hurt.
But again, what are we crediting Warthen for? Pelfrey and Dickey? Pelfrey’s road splits were pretty bad, he pitched to nearly a ERA. Dickey’s road splits weren’t even good, despite being 7th in ERA in the league. He let up 10 home runs, to 3 at Citi Field. Lots more hits for both guys. This, to me, wreaks of a poor pitching philosophy and a little more ‘pitching to contact’ and hoping guys catch it. But that’s a poor way to pitch.
and all the little things that bother me about Warthen, the not going out to the mound enough, the not being able to stem the tide and get Niese or Pelfrey back on track when they struggled. He leaves guys out there to just sorta fling the ball at the plate when they’re lost and unfocused. Santana went through a couple of spots where he was tipping his pitches, which let to a loss, but Warthen should be watching all his pitchers mechanics on the mound.
We can just do so so much better, even if i’m exaggerating how bad Warthen was. This isn’t about finding a guy that’s barely acceptable, but about finding a guy that’s great and conributes to growth.
Maybe some of this changes, mabye Warthen wanted to go out mroe but Manuel wanted to be in control in that regard, or in regards to how many pitches.
11/22/2010-11:59am at 11:59 am (UTC -4)
My point is that none of us know how good or how bad Warthen was. We could use his splits in any direction we wanted to. I could say that Pelfrey and Dickey were average pitchers but look what he did with them at home. It’s a never ending debate. However, what we can clearly say that amidst all the problems the Mets had last year pitching was WAY down the list. Thus while I really am not a Warthen fan, it’s also WAY down my list as well.
11/22/2010-9:29am at 9:29 am (UTC -4)
Let me point out that I’m not Anti-Warthen. I just want to know when he all of a sudden became the golden boy. He did do some good things. He also did do some not so good things. I’d like to just bring some sense of clarity to the Warthen Issue before we are divided into the Hatfield/McCoys over Warthen. “Warthen? Warthen??? We’re talking ’bout Warthen???” (in your best Iverson voice over…)
And Kong, didn’t you not want Hale because you wanted a clean sweep, yet are singing “Let the good times role” with Warthen? I’m just a little confused, I guess.
11/22/2010-9:32am at 9:32 am (UTC -4)
The absolute ‘best’ analysis of Warthen is that he was alright, but as Alderson suggested about the draft “The Mets should never be the middle of the pack”.
I’m just worried that hiring in house, and keeping Warthen, is a sign that maybe Alderson is not quite as ‘forward thinking’ as people are making him out to be.
11/22/2010-12:13pm at 12:13 pm (UTC -4)
or that everyone inside the organization (i dont mean Wilpons), including the players like him and wanted him to stay.
11/22/2010-12:21pm at 12:21 pm (UTC -4)
everyone within the organiznation? meaning Collins and Alderson?
They’re definitely pushing the grounds of “trust me, I know what I”m doing” with this one. Not that they’ve earned my trust based on things that happened in Oakland anyway. Earn my trust. Sign better quality pitchers that don’t need a pitching coach as desperately, or get better results with Warthen next year anyway. But until then, I don’t like what I’ve seen from him.
11/22/2010-1:26pm at 1:26 pm (UTC -4)
guys like Ricco, Hale, Oberkfell, Melvin, the scouts and all the other guys we probably dont even know. Im sure Sandy asked around about all the coaching staff including Johan, Pelf and maybe Dickey too
11/22/2010-9:43am at 9:43 am (UTC -4)
I did not want Hale as MANAGER.
I am happy to have him stay on as coach.
I wanted HoJo and Shines gone, and a new manager.
11/22/2010-9:44am at 9:44 am (UTC -4)
OK, just checking. I thought you were in the total cleaning of the house, right down to the ball boys.
11/22/2010-9:56am at 9:56 am (UTC -4)
Frankly, Jerry and Shines were the only ones I really felt had to go.
I just think we needed a new stern, disciplinarian manager.
Which we have now.
So, my opinion on coaches definitely is affected by the managerial choice. I think Collins (or Backman or Showalter or Valentine) will instill enough discipline so that the coaches will fall in line.
Had Hale or Melvin been chosen as manager, I might have felt differently.
I honestly feel the days of slacking are over, and I would not even really care if HoJo came back. I just wanted Jerry and Shines gone no matter what.
11/22/2010-9:45am at 9:45 am (UTC -4)
Again, pitching was the only area of the team which did not suck and/or regress last year.
11/22/2010-9:47am at 9:47 am (UTC -4)
I agree. I would’ve been fine if they wanted to clean house and replace Warthen, but also fine with keeping him. Mets were 7th best in the majors in both starting and relief pitching. If he can’t get any credit for that, then why do teams even have coaches?
11/22/2010-10:03am at 10:03 am (UTC -4)
The Monday Question: If you could hire any former Met to be the new hitting coach, who would you hire?
11/22/2010-10:08am at 10:08 am (UTC -4)
11/22/2010-10:09am at 10:09 am (UTC -4)
But I would take Olerud or Magadan or Cleon Jones or Edgardo.
11/22/2010-10:11am at 10:11 am (UTC -4)
Nice call on Olerud, who doesn’t currently have a baseball job. Perfect guy for Sandy – no smallball, all OBP and decent power. That would be a cool outside-the-box choice.
Yes, I am clairvoyant.
Posted November 22, 2010 at 9:23 AM
Heck, hire Olerud for hitting coach, if we want to role with the Mets theme. Or even entice Magadan to come back to Metsville.
First off, I’m O.K. with Collins. RE: Jon Debus, he has worked with Collins ALOT over the yrs and maybe more important than that, he
was the personal tutor for Russ Martin while in The Dodger system
and the one who helped convert him from 3B to behind the plate.
Steve Henderson was Collins’ Hitting Coach during his tenure with
Houston. Milt Thompson finished his career as a back-up with The ‘Stros during Collins’ first two yrs there. So, it would be a surprise if any of these three became parts of our next Coaching staff.
11/22/2010-10:43am at 10:43 am (UTC -4)
should have read “wouldn’t be a surprise”……….
11/22/2010-11:19am at 11:19 am (UTC -4)
Wally is ‘real devastated’ he didn’t get the job.
Actually, I like that confidence. He thought he interviewed well, thought they communicated well, and he’s disappointed. Hopefully, he’ll realize he’s got on year of managerial experience under his belt now, the organization likes him, and if he continues to do well, there might be a managerial job at the big league level in his future.
11/22/2010-12:23pm at 12:23 pm (UTC -4)
Glavine would not approve of this comment.
11/22/2010-1:00pm at 1:00 pm (UTC -4)
I was at that game. Nice loge box seats. barely had time to sit down and nail the first beer before he was trudging off the mound. What a buzz kill. I still can’t stand him.
that day, the boos were justified!
11/22/2010-11:29am at 11:29 am (UTC -4)
Hey Real, I sent you an Email (to your hotmail). Feel free to do with it what you wish.
11/22/2010-11:31am at 11:31 am (UTC -4)
Got it and will get it out there soon.
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