I’m quite sure Wally Backman thought he had all the qualities to be a big league manager- smarts, savvy, discipline, toughness and the 86′ ring on his finger. But the one thing he didn’t have was the one thing that kept him from the big chair-major league experience.
So Backman goes down in the book as the last Minaya casualty, he is a victim of a lame duck GM who worked for an untrusting owner. And Omar had a window, after the All-Star break when the Mets needed a jump start, Omar should’ve pulled the trigger and put Backman in to complete the 2010 season. It might have been the deciding factor, it might have shown ownership that Wally could handle the big leagues-even if it was for a couple of months. But whether Omar’s hands were tied or Jeff Wilpon lacked the courage to make the move, Manuel was left in the clubhouse to fill it’s halls with laughing Press Conferences and a team that finished a tiped 4th in the NL East. Backman fate was sealed as his one chance was sabotaged by forces he had no control over.
The irony of the situation is that only now are we hearing that, according a Joel Sherman interview with David Wright, that their was some ”unprofessionalism in the clubhouse” and a sense of ”inmates running the asylum” under the leadership of Jerry Manuel. It now seems pretty obvious that the clubhouse needed a new leader, a force to kick start the veterans and give the team some attitude. You mean to tell me that neither Jeff nor Omar saw any of this the entire year?
Isn’t that a little scary? That was the perfect time to bring in Backman for a change but what’s done is done and if Wally didn’t make it in then, he never will and right now, he’s either he’s heading back to Brooklyn or looking somebody who is willing to take a chance on him.
I wish him luck.
And so this morning, the Collins Era begins.
I will not pass judgement on the man. I saw Philadelphia run Terry Francona out of town like he was a witch from Salem and I’ve seen the headline of Clueless Joe on the back cover of the Daily News the day he was hired by the Yankees. We all know what these managers went on to do.
So good luck Mr. Collins and Mr. Backman.
Two men going through two different doors.
122 comments
kingman 26
11/23/2010-8:17am at 8:17 am (UTC -4)
Interesting perspective.
But we are most certainly not only hearing now about the lax, unprofessional atmosphere in the clubhouse—-it should have been obvious since nearly the entire team came to spring training out of shape in 2009, and it most certainly was obvious when observing everything about the 2010 Mets—as Ojeda, Keith, Ron, HoJo, and Darryl all loudly stated.
Castillo and Frenchy whining about playing time, everything about Oliver Perez, Reyes’ lackluster and admittedlu unfocused play, the pregame card-playing instead of preparing—everything—even just watching the way the guys approached their times at bat, especially late in games against bad relievers, as Ojeda pointed out almost nightly late in the year.
I wanted Wally too, and we still may get him in 1-2 years.
But clearly Alderson took a good look at this sorry bunch and decided a serious guy with MLB experience was needed.
It was the correct evaluation of this group of players; Wally might have been able to do the job, but Sandy felt a guy with MLB experience was needed, and I am willing to give him a chance.
rustyjr
11/23/2010-8:23am at 8:23 am (UTC -4)
I think Wally would be cutting off his nose to spite his face if he bolts the organization in a snit. I think he will take a job within the mets minors wither it is at PSL Binhampton or Buffalo. – Wally’s time will come – just not right now
Prismo
11/23/2010-8:29am at 8:29 am (UTC -4)
I agree, Wally should’ve been placed at interim manager before last season ended, and many others here were on the same boat. But, I try not to cry over spilled milk, so it is what it is. Backman will probably go back to managing a minor league team, we won’t hear about him for a year or so, and then if the Mets aren’t doing well Wally’s crazy cult will rise up again and call him the savior.
TRS86
11/23/2010-8:30am at 8:30 am (UTC -4)
How many interviews has Wally gotten besides the Mets? Lots of jobs open from manager, bench coach…. Guys wake up, Wally never had a shot at THIS job. I wish him luck and I hope that he makes a MLB coaching staff and prepares himself for the gig.
rustyjr
11/23/2010-8:32am at 8:32 am (UTC -4)
I think he stays
kingman 26
11/23/2010-8:38am at 8:38 am (UTC -4)
“Guys wake up.”
Hmmm, sounds pretty rude–labeling people who disagree with you as being asleep or dense.
TRS86
11/23/2010-8:44am at 8:44 am (UTC -4)
Yup, learned from the best.
LOL.
TRS86
11/23/2010-8:45am at 8:45 am (UTC -4)
That being said, Kingman do you honestly feel that Wally had a legitimate shot at the management position THIS off-season?
fongy2
11/23/2010-8:46am at 8:46 am (UTC -4)
I do.
kingman 26
11/23/2010-8:55am at 8:55 am (UTC -4)
Actually yes.
And I honestly feel that after Alderson closely examined this team, he decided that someone who was clearly a non-nonsense taskmaster with MLB experience was necessary.
That is what I truly believe. I think he liked everything about Backman except that he had never managed above AA and might not be the right guy right now to whip this crew into shape and slap them out of their lazy funk.
I know I used to be right with you attacking those who said the Mets were soft, lazy, etc., and I did not believe that about the 2007/2008 teams, but I definitely think the 2009 and 2010 teams were very much soft, lazy, and indifferent, and Alderson listened to what Keith/Ojeda/Ron/Darryl/HoJo/Bowa/Wright/etc. have said about this team.
I think that is why he chose Collins over Backman.
TRS86
11/23/2010-9:26am at 9:26 am (UTC -4)
I am not saying they don’t need a task master. However, I just don’t feel that Wally was ever a serious candidate and the Mets were interviewing him just to pay lip service to the fans.
fongy2
11/23/2010-9:31am at 9:31 am (UTC -4)
Well that’s pretty cynical. And aren’t you one who defended the prior management against these types
of beliefs despite all evidence to the contrary?
For me, I thing Alderson walks in the door w/o having
to worry about such nonsense. I think he knows that.
TRS86
11/23/2010-9:39am at 9:39 am (UTC -4)
I never said that stuff did not go on. It goes on in every organization. In fact there is a need. IF the Mets had hired Collins and not even given Wally his complimentary interview don’t you think there would have been even more of a firestorm?
Again, I am not anti-Wally. I just don’t think he is ready, he needs some time on an MLB bench and now especially with this group was not the time for on the job training. I am perfectly fine with him being bench coach or spending another couple of years in the organization. I do hope that before they consider promoting him (if he stays, which he should because no one else is even interviewing him) they allow him to get some MLB time.
fongy2
11/23/2010-8:40am at 8:40 am (UTC -4)
Well….We can be pretty sure Omar knew what was going on given
his history of interference in the clubhouse. He obviously just didn’t
get it. I’d be surprised if Wally wasn’t back since it wouldn’t appear he
has a ton of options. Wally needs to understand his own situation
and not act like one’s past doesn’t hurt you no matter how much you
rehab your image. I’m hoping he becomes the Mgr of Bingo so that
I can see him a few times this season.
fongy2
11/23/2010-8:45am at 8:45 am (UTC -4)
And add’l word on Coaches?….Bowa, Steve Henderson, Milt Thompson,Jon Debus?
fongy2
11/23/2010-8:48am at 8:48 am (UTC -4)
Nevermind on Thompson. I just saw where he was hired by Houston.
njstuckintx
11/23/2010-9:08am at 9:08 am (UTC -4)
My initial reaction is no on Bowa. I’m not sure why, but that whole Wright interview thing rubbed me the wrong way. Bad Rubbage!
Ceetar
11/23/2010-8:54am at 8:54 am (UTC -4)
I’m kinda tired of the “Everything Omar did is wrong, all hail Sandy the Savior” angle. (The only Sandy Wally knows is Sandy the Seagull)
kingman 26
11/23/2010-8:56am at 8:56 am (UTC -4)
Yes, when evaluating the progress of the team from 2006 to 2007 to 2008 to 2009 to 2010, it is clear that the team got better–on and off the field–every year.
Oh wait, that’s backwards!
TRS86
11/23/2010-9:28am at 9:28 am (UTC -4)
I do get his point but we did the same thing with Omar. We want to believe in Sandy just like we wanted to believe in Omar. Sandy will get a grace period just like Omar. Doesn’t anyone remember in “Omar We Trust”? I understand Ceetar’s cautious optimism but it seems strange coming from him. LOL.
kingman 26
11/23/2010-9:49am at 9:49 am (UTC -4)
Well, Sandy, despite the steroid issue, built a team which won three straight pennants–that’s VERY rare. And a title.
Omar’s major achievement before coming here was to trade Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore, and Brandon Phillips for Bartolo Colon. That’s among the worst trades in history.
I was not a serious Omar-basher, but let’s face it—every big-money guy he brought in via FA or trade has spent nearly a season or more on the DL—Pedro, Beltran, Delgado, Alou, Duque, Wagner, KRod, Johan, Bay—ALL of them. I am not saying they were all failed moves, but he tried to build by spending, and anyone with a budget can do that.
In addition, as the records AND observation points out, after 2006, the team got worse every year. Maybe the record in 2010 was better than 2009, but a LOT of informed observers think the 2010 team was a ship without a rudder, and a lazy and unprepared one.
Wanting to believe in Alderson and Minaya based on their previous track records is not an equal proposition; not even close.
In the end, what did Omar leave behind? A team that has a huge payroll and a lot of very questionable minor league talent, and has to wait a year for terrible contracts to expire before doing anything.
What did Alderson leave behind with the three pennants and WS trophy? A team that competed for years with a tiny payroll and losing stars annually.
Their records pre-Met are dramatically different, and not even Ceetar could disagree with that. OK, he could, but you couldn’t.
TRS86
11/23/2010-9:53am at 9:53 am (UTC -4)
Still not getting my point King. My point is that it is natural to have a honeymoon period. It’s obvious that Omar did what it took to make us competitive in 2006 and then after that the bottom fell out. However, in 2005 and 2006 there was no reason not to allow Omar a large grace period. Same will go for Sandy. Judging his moves now before we even see what the plan is would be silly. So yes Sandy is going to have the “golden” touch for a while. I for one see no problem with that nor had a problem saying the same about the early Omar. Now in 2-3 years we will get to see if there is a significant difference, which I imagine there will be.
kingman 26
11/23/2010-9:59am at 9:59 am (UTC -4)
Oh, I agree with that. And after 2005 and 2006′s huge skyrocket upward, I was definitely on the Omar bandwagon, and it took 2010 for me to jump off.
But still, relevant to your point or not, Sandy’s track record pre-Met and Omar’s were vastly different.
TRS86
11/23/2010-10:13am at 10:13 am (UTC -4)
Agreed but Omar was widely respected and it was considered a good move by the Mets at the time. I am still not sure how much was Omar, how much was the Wilpons and how much was the players. I still keep looking at the fact that in 2006 and 2007 we had the best team in the NL talent wise and were in the top 3 in 2008. Why they did not finish were they should have is still something that Sandy will have to determine. I think we both agree that much of that rest on the players. However, then that brings up the question of what changed?
kingman 26
11/23/2010-10:36am at 10:36 am (UTC -4)
Great question, and I agree, and to me, the answer is little by little losing the guys who–dare I say–had more heart and grit!
LoDuca, Chavez, Floyd, Valentin, Bradford, Oliver—-their leaving and the more time that went by, the more the team was rudderless, until the bottom fell out the last two years.
TRS86
11/23/2010-11:09am at 11:09 am (UTC -4)
I can’t agree there. I don’t think that those guys made Jose, Wright, Beltran, etc hustle more. I think the collapse itself had as much to do with things as anything else. They went through something that just does not happen in sports and honestly like it or not a lot of luck had to go into that. That team, regardless of it’s faults was basically running away with the division at the time.
I also think that it was never the Mets intentions to be great in 2006 and because of so many career years they fooled themselves into some rash contracts on short-term solutions that did not work out. Instead of developing the core…
kingman 26
11/23/2010-11:34am at 11:34 am (UTC -4)
No, I am not so much talking about the collapse(s) as much as the last two years….I think the 2006-2007 teams were not as good as they looked in 2006 and thought they were, and the 2008 bullpen was 100% responsible for that year’s finish.
I do think that 2009-2010 was the lack of veteran leadership which the 2006, and to a lesser extent 2007, team had.
rustyjr
11/23/2010-9:05am at 9:05 am (UTC -4)
btw guys nick carr was signed by someone and valdes was picked up by the cards
njstuckintx
11/23/2010-9:07am at 9:07 am (UTC -4)
I thought Carr was decent. Not amazing, but ok. Weren’t there spots on the 40 man open?
njstuckintx
11/23/2010-9:06am at 9:06 am (UTC -4)
I don’t think Wally should have gotten a shot over another for interim manager. Why not Obi? Or Jauss? Or Hale?
Wally isn’t the victim of anything. He interviewed and didn’t get the job. So he’ll be offered a position in the minors, get 2 years to show he can manage (ideally at AA) and we’ll see how it all shapes up then.
I can’t vilify Omar on this. He was an overmatched man in a job he shouldn’t have had in the first place, was a dead man walking and was playing out the season while saving salary, having Manuel play out the year. Most likely the suckitude of the team lead to more lost revenues due to attendance and concessions than the paltry salary they saved, but again, dead man walking…
fongy2
11/23/2010-9:13am at 9:13 am (UTC -4)
And don’t forget Bernie Madoff!
njstuckintx
11/23/2010-9:17am at 9:17 am (UTC -4)
Who could forget him! I bid on his slippers.
fongy2
11/23/2010-9:31am at 9:31 am (UTC -4)
Hahaha…..Funny.
Ceetar
11/23/2010-9:22am at 9:22 am (UTC -4)
if Timmy is making the coaching staff, AA manager opened up anyway. Perfect for Wally, it’s a bit higher, so more ‘respected’ and he can interview for other openings in the future (Ricco probably does the same, GM wise).
The way the business was operated last year, it seems like _last_ year was the ‘bet on health, don’t spend money’ year, not 2011.
The results of attendance and income will be even more dire if they repeat that in 2011. Meanwhile, if they spend 10 million to make this from .500 to ‘competitive’, they only have to draw approximately half a million more fans to make that money back. And that’s just a basic estimate off solely tickets sold. never mind concessions, parking, I like Ike shirts, and TV-ad revenue, which will plummet, again, if they don’t. due to ratings.
njstuckintx
11/23/2010-9:30am at 9:30 am (UTC -4)
Hence my railing on spending some dough to get Garland. What’s 10 million over “budget” if it adds more than 10 mill in revenue. Not saying that getting Garland and getting Garza and a decent BP is at all possible, but with only Pelf, Niese & Dickey as set pitchers, no clue on Santana, and a hope and a prayer for the 5th spot, the Mets NEED to get 2 SPs and one that is at least decent, not some reclamation project. Spending a little to bandaid this upcoming season to at least a winning record, 85 wins or so, will be a valid and worth the wild investment.
TRS86
11/23/2010-9:33am at 9:33 am (UTC -4)
No way, however, does Garland get you 10 million in revenue.
njstuckintx
11/23/2010-9:37am at 9:37 am (UTC -4)
How can you determine that? Then again, how can I determine that? My point, sir, is that applying a hard cap and saying we can’t go over said amount, so, let’s roll out a couple guys we signed cheap to get us through the year is just We Tar Dead.
I heard Tim Redding is available for under a mill! Sign that sucker up!
TRS86
11/23/2010-9:41am at 9:41 am (UTC -4)
Oh I don’t think there is a hard cap at all. I am just saying that they can’t look at it based on potential revenue. They will not most likely not get a matching return THIS year on any FA acquisitions. It’s gonna take a lot more than Garland to turn some of this jaded fanbase.
njstuckintx
11/23/2010-9:43am at 9:43 am (UTC -4)
alright, I can see that point.
Even if they are competitive until sometime mid September, that’ll go a long way towards putting butts in the seats and revenues up. So Garland (or comparable) would be 1 of a couple needed steps in the right direct.
TRS86
11/23/2010-9:47am at 9:47 am (UTC -4)
Oh I agree but again I am not sure even being “competitive” in mid September does it and honestly if things break right it can happen but all of us know that it’s not likely to happen. I am fine with getting a Garland but I still think that you need to be careful this year. Sign guys that can have an impact this year but will not tie up roster spots next year (unless you really want that guy going forward)
What I don’t get is why so many are now saying they don’t see the Mets competitive until 2013. With all the money we have coming off next year that seems silly. Look at our record after 2005 and we should have even more money to spend and hopefully will spend it wisely. I also think that this group, if in the race at the deadline, will see a light at the end of the tunnel for 2012 and be willing to take on some money because of all the money coming off.
njstuckintx
11/23/2010-9:51am at 9:51 am (UTC -4)
Nothing longer than a 2 year deal would be the way to go in my mind. I still (and won’t ever) believe that a 2 year deal is a “multi” year deal, as you can more easily flip a guy in his walk year or feel content in cutting loses as a worse case scenario. Tying in Garland for 2 years would be a benefit for that hurting SP and not hamper the Mets long team. Giving Feliciano a 3 year deal (something I read somewhere) would be a big kick in the sack, similar to Showenwies (spelled horribly).
TRS86
11/23/2010-9:59am at 9:59 am (UTC -4)
The two year deal is still risky but again it depends on the terms and who it is. I would go 2-20 on Garland but then again, how much DO they really have to spend? Will there be a guy slightly worse than Garland but comparable, left out to dry in January? Those are the types of guys I think you will see the Mets interested in. It does not have to be the Tim Reddings.
Ceetar
11/23/2010-9:44am at 9:44 am (UTC -4)
I think the revenue difference is HUGE between 75 and 85 wins, and the Mets are one or two smart acquisitions away from that. Garland over Gee for instance, could swing team upwards.
85 wins for example, is going to be a taem winning more than it’s losing, playing good baseball, and at least pretending to compete for a playoff spot for a while. That’ll draw fans, draw interest. The ratings are a big deal too, because if ratings to continue to drop, so does what they can charge in advertising. But if they get a boost now, as we supposedly comeo ut of the recession and there is more money to spend on advertising, teh Mets command a bigger return on that investment.
It’s little things like that, but this team was not that far off from being watchable all season.
njstuckintx
11/23/2010-9:46am at 9:46 am (UTC -4)
You articulated what I’ve not been able to. Thanks.
TRS86
11/23/2010-9:48am at 9:48 am (UTC -4)
This team with Gee should still be in the 80′s. Garland over Gee is not a 10 game difference.
TRS86
11/23/2010-9:49am at 9:49 am (UTC -4)
I just think the “casual” fan is much more jaded than we know. Again, we get blinded because we are around rabid Mets fans on here everyday.
saltygary
11/23/2010-10:43am at 10:43 am (UTC -4)
Garland wouldn’t get me to buy another hot dog. But maybe a couple extra beers so I can get myself to blackout.
metsfan4decades
11/23/2010-9:16am at 9:16 am (UTC -4)
Well written post. Nice to read some realism and sanity concerning the FO pick for manager among the ‘No Wally? I’m boycotting the team’ spewing across the blogs these past few days.
Along with many others, I truly believe a change was needed from top to bottom and here’s hoping those holding these new positions can right this ship.
Unlike others, I don’t think the players – for the most part – were the problem. You can have the most experienced, senior experts on any type team. Put an incompetent FO/manager in charge and I don’t care how good the players are, you’re going to have a problem.
I don’t know if Wally ever had a serious shot or not. I have to think they had at least a serious thought about him since he made it to the finalist list.
I’m just happy a new era has begun.
metsgirl31
11/23/2010-9:20am at 9:20 am (UTC -4)
Agree completely.
Ceetar
11/23/2010-9:26am at 9:26 am (UTC -4)
Everyone is a professional baseball player. Even Ollie. Even he had to work hard to get where he is, and had to work hard last season in his Arizona boot camp thing, and is pitching in Winter leagues now.
Some would say this is the primary function of a manager, to direct that focus and drive that every baseball player actually has, into a fun cohesive unit on the field. Manuel has failed to do this from day one, and every month he was in charge, the soap opera around the team, and the failure, got worse and worse. If Terry can re-direct and be a competant leader, even Warthen won’t be able to make a mess of it.
njstuckintx
11/23/2010-9:32am at 9:32 am (UTC -4)
Every time you bring up Ollie, it’s like sitting around a pool of kerosene, sipping a molotov cocktail while lighting up a cigarette. Just say… ;P
TRS86
11/23/2010-9:35am at 9:35 am (UTC -4)
I really don’t get your need to defend Ollie. It’s ok that we dislike him and think he stinks. You can’t say he does not deserve it. You can disagree to what degree he deserves it but you can’t deny that the need is there.
Ceetar
11/23/2010-9:52am at 9:52 am (UTC -4)
I’m not defending him. I’m using him as an extreme example. (I guess, he’s the Mets equivilent of Godwin’s law..)
It’s certainly okay to hate him and think he stinks. he has stunk. But the “deserved it” doesn’t fly. It’s just as much Manuel and Minaya’s fault that they played one man short last season, as it is Ollie’s. My stance has always been that as useless as a piece is that you have, if you don’t try to milk it for every drop of value that you can’t, that’s sloppy and a problem. I know/knew Ollie was going to be here through March. So I targeted the problems that were more fixable, namely getting rid of Jerry (and Omar).
And that’s the point I’m trying to make here. These are professional, and for the most part hardworking and caring guys on this team. They want to win, they want to do well. They want to work hard and they want to help their team. Jerry minimized that, and I think Collins can at least refocus them. I was agreeing with mf4d that the players aren’t the problem. The players are merely the tools. Football coaches frequently get good performance out of the biggest malconents and criminals on the field. Baseball managers are capable of the same thing. Milton Bradley has contributed, etc.
kingman 26
11/23/2010-9:56am at 9:56 am (UTC -4)
Ollie chose not to accept the minor league assignment, which was the clear choice if he cared and was willing to work.
He chose to collect checks and let himself atrophy.
Do you think one player on the Mets would agree with your viewpoint?
TRS86
11/23/2010-10:03am at 10:03 am (UTC -4)
Come on Ceetar? Not defending Ollie? You have defended him at every turn. While I agree that much of the fanbase has too much ill will towards Ollie, it does not really matter that it was PARTIALLY someone other than Ollie’s fault. Does that mean he gets no blame? Obviously he gets some, thus he is deserving of criticism and dislike. Again the only thing we should be disagreeing on here is the amount of blame he should receive, not the fact that is is fault.
Ceetar
11/23/2010-10:23am at 10:23 am (UTC -4)
I am not absolving Ollie of blame. I just feel the other culprits had a bigger negative impact on the whole, and I think there is zero value to releasing Ollie before March 31st at 4pm or whatever the time is.
we’ve used the example elsewhere. If you found a lottery ticket on the floor, would you rip it up because the chances of winning are so absurd? or would you take the ticket and look up the numbers?
I’ve repeatedly stated taht I think they should operate under the assumption that Ollie is not on the team. In fact, I’m not sure there is anything he can show in Spring Training that would get him a spot in the rotation. Either he shows some sort of resurgence and you trade him or put him in Buffalo to make get a few starts and see if he can keep it up. (of course, if he refuses, you release him)
I do not care about history. We have 40-60 pieces right now. Most of those will be shed. That’s fine. Let’s give the new guys a chance to see what they want, and what they can find a use for. That’s their job, and I don’t want to take it away from them by demanding they only use the pieces I like.
TRS86
11/23/2010-10:27am at 10:27 am (UTC -4)
Ceetar, Ollie is not just some random lottery ticket. Ben Sheets would be a random lottery ticket, Kyle Davies would be a random lottery ticket. Zach Duke would be a random lottery ticket. Ollie is a lottery ticket that if you do scratch it and try and cash in on the winnings your entire life could be cursed. Think of it as a “Monkey’s Paw” lottery ticket.
Ceetar
11/23/2010-10:33am at 10:33 am (UTC -4)
And that’s where we differ. I don’t believe in curses and bad omens and tainted history. They’re the same lottery ticket (actually, Ollie is cheaper as he wouldn’t cost any more money to buy). I suggest buying more of them for sure, but the monkey paw comment suggests that you believe you’d/we’d rather not have Ollie than win with him. My focus is on the winning part. whatever it takes. whoever it takes.
Fans just don’t get on winning teams. but fi they’re losing, whether or not Ollie’s here, they’re going to be booed, taunted, laughed at. It could be Beltran, Reyes, Pelfrey, or it could be Castillo and Perez. It could be the new guy.
TRS86
11/23/2010-11:04am at 11:04 am (UTC -4)
Man you just don’t get where I am coming from. It’s not an omen, it’s the negative energy that will surround the team when he is around. That is not some hypothetical curse, it’s just a fact. As a coach, don’t read this NJ, I know full well the effect that negative energy can have on the rest of the team. He will NOT be given a chance to succeed here and it IS setting Ollie and the Mets up for a distraction.
metsfan4decades
11/23/2010-9:42am at 9:42 am (UTC -4)
While I agree with everything else you’re saying, I truly believe Ollie is a lost cause at this point. At least as far as pitching for the Mets.
Maybe someone, somewhere, can figure out his problems but I think the ship has sailed here. Early indications in the fall league aren’t looking good for him either. If he does come into ST for the Mets, and he does look good, well that’ll be a plus but I’m not holding my breath.
TRS86
11/23/2010-9:43am at 9:43 am (UTC -4)
Agreed, at this point it’s not fair to Collins or Ollie for him to be back on the team. In my opinion it is setting up for failure. They really need to try and unload that contract. Only other option is to pitch him out of the pen as a LOOGY. He can’t start at this point.
Ceetar
11/23/2010-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
Let’s see what happens. I don’t think LOOGY is a role for him either. If he’s goign to rebound, it’s likely as a starter, unless he has some amazing life-changing braekthrough and completely readjusts how he pitches and doesn’t walk guys, which is unlikely.
I’ve laid out my criteria (and i put no weight on winter ball) for him to not earn his release on March 31st. He has to be hitting at least 91 consistantly, and his K/BB rate has to be at, or better than what his career numbers are.
TRS86
11/23/2010-10:06am at 10:06 am (UTC -4)
Ceetar, do you not see how slotting him in the Mets rotation is setting both sides up for failure? He has to move on. It is best for the Mets and Ollie. The fans will NEVER give him a chance and the ill will and gloom and doom when he starts will be overwhelming. Again, Ollies fault or not, it’s just the way it is. Now if Ollie was strong mentally, perhaps he could pitch well through the chorus of boos that he 100% will hear from his home fans when he steps on the mound. However, what is the effect of that on the other players and the rest of the team? It can’t be “good”. Not like they are going to rally behind Ollie.
Ceetar
11/23/2010-10:16am at 10:16 am (UTC -4)
I don’t care about the fans. the fans are idiots. They’ll find someone else to boo anyway if they’re losing. and you know what, if they’re winning, no one will care.
Also, I don’t think Ollie’s meant for the rotation. if he throws 30 scoreless innings in spring training, strikes out 40, walks 5.. I’d think it’s foolish tor elease him. and there are enough split squad and games in spring, especailly sicne we have virtually no starters, for a scrub we’re going to release with 99% certainity, to get some innings in.
TRS86
11/23/2010-10:19am at 10:19 am (UTC -4)
While you may not care about the fans, I hope you care about the players. Again, having Ollie on next year’s team is setting Ollie and the team up for criticism, distractions and failure.
Now, should they release him yesterday? No that would be bad business. However, opening the season with him in the rotation would also be bad business. You can bring him to ST and hope to hell someone trades for him. Then ask him to go down to AAA and prove he is ready to work, perhaps get some good will for proving he is thinking about the team. THEN maybe you can bring him back up.
Ceetar
11/23/2010-10:24am at 10:24 am (UTC -4)
that’s pretty much what I’ve been saying.
oleosmirf
11/23/2010-11:08am at 11:08 am (UTC -4)
you dont think the players wished he was gone too. You dont think when he went in the game the players were thinking “shit here we go again”
TRS86
11/23/2010-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
Yup, the Mets from the collapse on had issues with adversity. Always appearing to be waiting for the other shoe to drop. They have a new crew and a chance for a fresh start. Why keep someone around that denies them of that chance? Ollie needs (or as you would say “deserves”) this fresh start as well and he just can’t get that here.
kingman 26
11/23/2010-10:43am at 10:43 am (UTC -4)
“i put no weight on winter ball”
Of course you don’t!!
He’s throwing in the 80s and cannot get minor leaguers out in winter ball!!
LOL!
Ceetar
11/23/2010-10:50am at 10:50 am (UTC -4)
his strikeouts are up and no one’s suggested what his velocity is.
Think about what I’m saying. I put very little stock in winter ball or spring training, but he has to show something there to make the team. Does it sound like i think he should, or will, or that I will think he should, make the team?
TRS86
11/23/2010-11:02am at 11:02 am (UTC -4)
Actually I thought I read reports that his velocity was even down from last year. Not sure where I read that.
kingman 26
11/23/2010-11:08am at 11:08 am (UTC -4)
Reports have definitely mentioned his poor velocity.
To quote the leader of this site, “Wake up.”
Prismo
11/23/2010-9:48am at 9:48 am (UTC -4)
Ceetar still thinks the Mets can get some value out of Bobby Bonilla!
TRS86
11/23/2010-9:50am at 9:50 am (UTC -4)
Eh, why not bring him in as clubhouse manager? Position’s open right?
kingman 26
11/23/2010-9:54am at 9:54 am (UTC -4)
No, Ollie did NOT work hard to get where he is, which is precisely why his career plummeted so fast.
He got to the majors in PITT based on raw ability, and did NOT work hard.
He did not work hard to develop secondary pitches, he did not work hard to develop control, he did not work hard to complement his fastball with anything else.
Which is precisely why he ceased to be an effective pitcher as soon as he lost 4 mph off his fastball.
And he REFUSED to work hard in AAA last year, where he MIGHT have been able to develop a new pitch with 3-4 months of hard work. He chose to sit on the bench in the majors and collect a check.
You never get tired of this, do you? Unreal.
Prismo
11/23/2010-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
He must have forgotten when Ollie came to camp a couple years ago with a beer-belly, completely out of shape.
njstuckintx
11/23/2010-9:57am at 9:57 am (UTC -4)
cervesa belly.
kingman 26
11/23/2010-9:57am at 9:57 am (UTC -4)
I try not to be mean, but sometimes I think Ceetar deliberately makes these comments either just to get attention, or perhaps to see what peoples’ responses will be.
It’s almost too bizarre.
Ceetar
11/23/2010-10:00am at 10:00 am (UTC -4)
you mean the year he was injured and couldn’t walk? I dunno. Considering other than that one spring, I haven’t ever heard anyone say he doesn’t put in his work, doesn’t do his running, doesn’t skip side-sessions. etc.
Could we stop attacking me for trying to look at this objectively? without emotion? Throw out all of previous history. We’ve got a pitcher we owe 12 million to, who’s struggling with velocity last year and walks a lot of guys, but has the stuff to strike out a lot of guys too. do we not give that guy a shot in Spring? attitude and work ethic can be focused and set upon by leadership. A guy doesn’t do the work you demand of him? release him.
TRS86
11/23/2010-10:08am at 10:08 am (UTC -4)
You can’t take out all of the previous history. That would be like releasing all the convicts in prison. Life is not in a box or a bubble. The fact that Ollie is Ollie and all the past issues have happen have made it 99% unlikely that he can be successful here and at this point having him on the team would not be fair to anyone. Not Ollie, the players, management, or even the fans who are desperately wanting to have someone to cheer for and Ollie will not be it.
kingman 26
11/23/2010-10:13am at 10:13 am (UTC -4)
You try to be the center of attention on here–and often succeed– with these types of comments.
Nothing else makes sense.
You succeed in gathering massive attention and loads of comments by your really strange points of view.
And not just on Ollie.
TRS86
11/23/2010-10:16am at 10:16 am (UTC -4)
Couldn’t the same be said of you and I Kingman? I think all of us seek attention. Think about how radical some of your views are at times. I know mine are as well. Not saying that he should not be called on it but he is welcome to feel anyway he likes, without ill will.
Ceetar
11/23/2010-10:18am at 10:18 am (UTC -4)
If that was the case, I’d post it to my own blog and gets hits and traffic.
I check my assumptions at the door. Nothing the Mets do right now will lose them games.
The way people talk, they’d rather the Mets lose 100 games and Ollie be released than them win 90 and him go 15-9.
TRS86
11/23/2010-10:20am at 10:20 am (UTC -4)
Ceetar, you are welcome to post whatever you like.
I just hope you understand where I am coming from here. Ollie will NEVER be given a chance to succeed here. It’s best for both parties for him to pitch well in winter league (not happening yet), perhaps ST and then move on.
Prismo
11/23/2010-10:21am at 10:21 am (UTC -4)
LOL!!L!JL!KJ!LK!JL!K!
The way people talk, they’d rather not see a pitcher who’s had no success in 2 full seasons, and in fact has only *REGRESSED* during that time. They’d rather not see a pitcher who refused to go down to the minors to work on his game, fully knowing that if he succeeded he’d be back sooner rather than later in the major leagues.
Why is this so hard to understand? (and yes, his past DOES matter)
TRS86
11/23/2010-10:22am at 10:22 am (UTC -4)
Right, I am not saying everything was his fault or that he should be exiled from baseball. However, fact of life is that he had his time in NY and it just has not worked. The Mets and Ollie need a chance to start over and it’s best for both sides if he moves on.
kingman 26
11/23/2010-10:40am at 10:40 am (UTC -4)
You wouldn’t get a fraction of the attention you get here–this happens again and again—you assert something really questionable, and a whole thread is people debating it. I find it annoying.
Ollie is treated unfairly.
The Phils would “still be losing” had we not given them the division in 2007.
Castillo is still very productive.
Maine can be something in 2011.
Last year would have been very different if the Mets had beaten the Phils in a couple of early season games.
Again and again and again.
Ceetar
11/23/2010-10:43am at 10:43 am (UTC -4)
all valid points, which I justified with reasoning and you batted down with emotion.
kingman 26
11/23/2010-10:48am at 10:48 am (UTC -4)
No, not really valid points even remotely, as past and future events have and will clearly show.
Ollie is done for the forseeable future, as is Maine, Castillo was a very good player who is well past his prime, and the Phils have been a really well-run organization the last 5 years; they have won what they have on merit, as the Mets did in 2006.
As for Ollie working hard and being in shape, that’s a joke man.
saltygary
11/23/2010-10:51am at 10:51 am (UTC -4)
TRS had it best: “having Ollie on next year’s team is setting Ollie and the team up for criticism, distractions and failure”.
We all need to move on from Ollie. I don’t even want to see his name. Maybe we should refer to him as “He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named”. Or better yet can we have a moratorium on discussing the guy? It’s just OLD and I want to stop dwelling on past seasons right now.
TRS86
11/23/2010-11:00am at 11:00 am (UTC -4)
Well damn Ceetar. LOL. Now you made it personal (if you were referring to me) The same argument that I make with Kingman you are now having as well. No one side is completely correct. It’s not like you alone have some great ability to think rationally on this subject while the rest of us are doomed by our emotions.
Rational shows you that the team has a negative energy about them when Ollie is around. This will not be fixed. Even Heilman experienced this and never recovered and I would venture that he is much more strong willed than Ollie. New York is not an easy place to play and for a team desperately needing a fresh start and a player in Ollie who needs one as well, having him on the team opening day is a disaster for both parties. That is not emotion speaking, that is looking at past failures and trying to learn from them.
kingman 26
11/23/2010-11:39am at 11:39 am (UTC -4)
Actually TRS, in some arguments one side IS right and the other IS wrong.
The argument about Oliver Perez’s work ethic and whether the Mets treated him fairly is a perfect example.
Ceetar is WRONG.
And there is nothing whatsoever wrong with pointing that out.
It’s ridiculous and silly (to use your favorite epithets) to suggest Perez has worked hard or been treated unfairly.
OK, maybe he worked hard for a couple of months last offseason. How about the previous offseason? How about during the 2009 season? How about during this season, when he sat on the bench and collected checks rather than work in the minors?
Ollie’s a joke.
Ceetar’s wrong.
No crime in that.
oleosmirf
11/23/2010-10:24am at 10:24 am (UTC -4)
i would like to say that for once, i think Cerrone is right on the money on his most recent post about Collins. I think Sandy realized how much work needs to do and how slim our chances are this season that making Backman or Hale the manager just didnt make sense right now.
I expect Collins to rub some veterans (Beltran, K-Rod) the wrong way but those guys wont be here much longer so Im fine with that. The mets have been the laughing stock of baseball the past 4 years and changing that is more important than anything…
TRS86
11/23/2010-10:30am at 10:30 am (UTC -4)
I keep hearing how Beltran, Krod and others need to be whipped into shape. What evidence do we have that either or any specific player needs this? Reyes, but not Wright? Beltran, but not Pagan? Krod, but not Parnell?
I am confused.
Ceetar
11/23/2010-10:35am at 10:35 am (UTC -4)
It’s the storyline of the offseason. Whip them into respectibility. hard-nose marine drill sargeant style.
I suspect guys like Beltran and Reyes would be offended if Collins came in and told them they’re not working hard enough. But that’s probably where the “too intense” worry came in with Collins to some.
oleosmirf
11/23/2010-10:39am at 10:39 am (UTC -4)
they don’t need to but my impressions of Beltran have always been he just wants to be left alone, let him do his job (which he does quite well). I have no problem with that whatsoever but a firery manager trying to get the team to play with intensity might rub him the wrong way.
I just dont see them getting along, same with K-Rod although Beltran will be traded by July 31st anyway so I dont really care if they get along or not.
TRS86
11/23/2010-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
I see no reason for Beltran and Collins not to get along. Will he have some issues with Krod? Not sure. Krod is a very intense guy so perhaps their styles will match more than clash.
njstuckintx
11/23/2010-10:47am at 10:47 am (UTC -4)
I think you’ll see Beltran smiling and getting along with everyone this year. Anything to increase value, the Boras way!
metsfan4decades
11/23/2010-10:42am at 10:42 am (UTC -4)
Do you mean veteran in the sense of age – or how long they’ve been on the team?
‘Cause if you think Collins might rub KRod the wrong way, isn’t that as likely to happen with Wright and Reyes as well?
(And BTW, IMO, KRod is in no position right now to be voicing his opinion about much….)
There’s a difference between rubbing players the wrong way and completely losing control of the clubhouse, IMO. Here’s hoping the latter doesn’t happen. Some point to Collins past issues on that one. I’m giving the benefit of the doubt right now.
njstuckintx
11/23/2010-10:25am at 10:25 am (UTC -4)
Can’t we discuss Abortion or Euthanasia or something less polarizing than Ollie?
tkfj2
11/23/2010-10:28am at 10:28 am (UTC -4)
Ollie should not be polarizing, there should only be one pole.
kingman 26
11/23/2010-10:42am at 10:42 am (UTC -4)
There is to most people.
You could not be more correct.
Mr North Jersey
11/23/2010-10:40am at 10:40 am (UTC -4)
lol tx
tkfj2
11/23/2010-10:27am at 10:27 am (UTC -4)
The only value Oliver Perez will give the New York Mets is negative value.
Its time to end the Ollie Perez era, time to move on. If he unrealistically becomes successful somewhere else, so be it, good for him. It certainly is not possible here.
TRS86
11/23/2010-10:30am at 10:30 am (UTC -4)
I tend to agree. I would seriously put his chances of being successful here at around 1-2%.
metsfan4decades
11/23/2010-10:45am at 10:45 am (UTC -4)
Agree.
If he does go on to some success, well good for him. I don’t much care right now if that happens on the Mets dime either.
I still believe the ship has sailed here for many of the reasons stated above by other posters.
Mr North Jersey
11/23/2010-10:35am at 10:35 am (UTC -4)
So many arguments being made here today not sure where to chime in at?
I guess I will attempt to tackle the topic of this post itself.
When looking in hindsight you can see how bringing up Wally as an interim mgr may not have been a bad idea at that. I def was tired of Jerry but if Wally should of been brought up is just not something that I recall dwelling on day after day during that span.
I don’t know why Backman would now never be afforded the opportunity to be mgr again? All I know is as long as he continues to manage for a big league club now that he is finally back in MLB and doesn’t give teams any cause for concern with any off field stuff he will have a shot still at managing one day.
If not here who knows maybe somewhere else.
Good Post Gonzo. You got ppl to engage in debate rather well.
njstuckintx
11/23/2010-10:39am at 10:39 am (UTC -4)
From “should Wally have been here” to Garland to Ollie. What was the post about again?
Mr North Jersey
11/23/2010-10:45am at 10:45 am (UTC -4)
well it definitely isn’t about Collins being named manager today.
TRS86
11/23/2010-10:40am at 10:40 am (UTC -4)
Here’s a question. IF the Mets had decided to relieve Jerry during the season then what would have made Wally the right guy for the job then? Over guys like Melvin, Collins, Hale, Obe and Jaus?
Just saying, we have no idea if he would have been the one promoted. I am going to guess that even under Omar, he would not have been. Also, if the Wilpons had ideas of replacing Omar, it’s pretty obvious they would not have let HIM select the replacement.
Mr North Jersey
11/23/2010-10:45am at 10:45 am (UTC -4)
yea, i am not saying wally was the rite guy 4 da job i am just responding to gonzo’s post that he felt wally should of been called up.
you r rite we have no idea who would of been called up. i don’t believe gonzo was sayin wally “would” of been so much as he was saying “should” of been.
TRS86
11/23/2010-10:55am at 10:55 am (UTC -4)
Right, I guess I just disagree that even then Wally would or even “should” have been called up to finish the season. I don’t get why he would be leapfrogging guys like Teufel, Obie, Melvin, Collins, Hale and Jauss or why there is some notion that he would have.
Mr North Jersey
11/23/2010-10:59am at 10:59 am (UTC -4)
It’s OK I understand. You have expressed your feelings on Backman rather well in the past few months.
TRS86
11/23/2010-11:01am at 11:01 am (UTC -4)
Yeah but for some reason many still feel that I am anti-Wally and want him banished from baseball and never given another chance to succeed. That is just not true. I just don’t think now, with this team is that time.
Mr North Jersey
11/23/2010-11:10am at 11:10 am (UTC -4)
Yea I don’t know what to tell you. I guess you just can’t control what people think of you.
TRS86
11/23/2010-11:11am at 11:11 am (UTC -4)
Yup.
saltygary
11/23/2010-11:01am at 11:01 am (UTC -4)
That’s a good point and I don’t know if that’s been discussed so much. Guys like Teuf and Oberk were rarely put in the mix and especially Oberk deserves a shot just as much and if not more than Wally World does.
TRS86
11/23/2010-11:10am at 11:10 am (UTC -4)
I honestly think it was because of fan sentiment. I can’t get it but I am sure that many do.
oleosmirf
11/23/2010-11:03am at 11:03 am (UTC -4)
86 Mets syndrome combined with firery
stickguy
11/23/2010-11:20am at 11:20 am (UTC -4)
I don’t think Wally would have gotten the interim job anyway (and I do think Jerry should have been axed 2 months before he was). Might have ben Melvin, which I know was freaking out a lot of people (oh no! he might do well and kept extended! horrors!)
I also think there should be a spam filter put onto this site. Any time the word “olie” appears, it gets zapped into the corn field.
but, I see Ceetars piont, in concept, about trying to get some value out of your investments. And normally, I al all for bringing them to camp (if you can’t trade them) and letting the try to earn a job (or a trade). Ollie though, might just be that sepcial exception to the rule.
so hopefully Sandy finds some (not horrible unpalatable) way to unload him in the winter. A bad contract swap is fine, as long as the headache coming back is not worse than the one we already have.
Ollie just can’t be on this team next year. too personal. And if Sandy runs him out there anyway, he better pitch the game of his life 1st start start or he will set a record for biggest boo shower ever.
TRS86
11/23/2010-11:22am at 11:22 am (UTC -4)
Agreed, I can also see him being in ST but at that point it’s just trying to build value for trade or convincing him to go to AAA. I really don’t see much of a way he can be on the opening roster.
Ceetar
11/23/2010-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
How about this? Bring him to spring training, only have him do whatever he’s doing to get the strikeouts in winter league against the split squad nationals or something and try to inflate his numbers by facing crap. maybe someone will takea flyer on him off that.