" It will be sad to see you go !"
Well it looks like that there is no doubt that by the time midnight tonight rolls around, John Maine will not be a New York Met. And it is a shame because John Maine is and always has been a fighter. When the Mets first acquired him in the middle of the ’06 season , he was the throw in to the deal that sent Kris ( and Anna) Benson packing to the Baltimore Orioles for Armondo Benitez clone , Jorge Jullio.
Maine was assigned to the Norfolk Tides – the Mets minor league affiliate, where he pitched well enough to get a mid season call up when Orlando Hernandez went on the disabled list. Maine pitched well , at times looking brilliant, but he was far from being considered as a replacement option for the starting rotation. That mindset changed when he pitched during the post season that year after both Pedro Martinez and ” El Duque” went down with injuries . Maine manned up to the occasion and he was lights out against the Dodgers and in game six of the NLCS ( I was there) he mowed down the Cardinals for the victory .
During the spring training of ’07 Maine looked as dominant as a pitcher could look,. He was getting raves from both the local and national media alike. He pitched extremely well in the first half of the ’07 season. There were even whispers of him being a candidate for the Cy Young award. But he was not chosen to pitch in that years All Star Game and John went of the rails soon after that. He was shut down that August with arm discomfort and needed season ending surgery.
He would come back that next season but his mechanics seemed to be off . His velocity was still there but he could not locate his pitches well and in most games he couldn’t get past the fifth inning. In the next two season Maine would be a frequent visitor on the disabled list , It got ugly last season when Jerry Manuel pulled him from a mid May game after five pitches. Maine fought him tooth and nail to keep him in the game and Dan Warthern said the infamous words in regards to Maine’s health ” He’s a liar “. Maine would later undergo yet another surgery on his arm – missing the rest of the season.
I consider Maine a hard luck pitcher. He could have and should have been an elite pitcher , but unfortunately chronic injuries impeded that ascension. He is kind of like Craig Swan in that respect.
If Maine is non-tendered by the Mets , I do hope he catches on with another team whether it is a invite to spring training or a minor league deal, because he is a good man – I am just not sure if he has any gas left in that arm of his
Here are John’s career stats as per BaseballReference.com
| Year 5 | Age | Tm | Lg | W | L | W-L% | ERA | G | GS | GF | CG | SHO | SV | IP | H | R | ER | HR | BB | IBB | SO | HBP | BK | WP | BF | ERA+ | WHIP | H/9 | HR/9 | BB/9 | SO/9 | SO/BB | Awards |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2004 | 23 | BAL | AL | 0 | 1 | .000 | 9.82 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3.2 | 7 | 4 | 4 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 19 | 51 | 2.727 | 17.2 | 2.5 | 7.4 | 2.5 | 0.33 | |
| 2005 | 24 | BAL | AL | 2 | 3 | .400 | 6.30 | 10 | 8 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 40.0 | 39 | 30 | 28 | 8 | 24 | 0 | 24 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 184 | 69 | 1.575 | 8.8 | 1.8 | 5.4 | 5.4 | 1.00 | |
| 2006 | 25 | NYM | NL | 6 | 5 | .545 | 3.60 | 16 | 15 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 90.0 | 69 | 40 | 36 | 15 | 33 | 1 | 71 | 2 | 0 | 3 | 365 | 122 | 1.133 | 6.9 | 1.5 | 3.3 | 7.1 | 2.15 | |
| 2007 | 26 | NYM | NL | 15 | 10 | .600 | 3.91 | 32 | 32 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 191.0 | 168 | 90 | 83 | 23 | 75 | 3 | 180 | 5 | 0 | 2 | 810 | 110 | 1.272 | 7.9 | 1.1 | 3.5 | 8.5 | 2.40 | |
| 2008 | 27 | NYM | NL | 10 | 8 | .556 | 4.18 | 25 | 25 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 140.0 | 122 | 70 | 65 | 16 | 67 | 2 | 122 | 4 | 0 | 10 | 608 | 101 | 1.350 | 7.8 | 1.0 | 4.3 | 7.8 | 1.82 | |
| 2009 | 28 | NYM | NL | 7 | 6 | .538 | 4.43 | 15 | 15 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 81.1 | 67 | 42 | 40 | 8 | 38 | 2 | 55 | 4 | 0 | 5 | 349 | 92 | 1.291 | 7.4 | 0.9 | 4.2 | 6.1 | 1.45 | |
| 2010 | 29 | NYM | NL | 1 | 3 | .250 | 6.13 | 9 | 9 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 39.2 | 47 | 29 | 27 | 8 | 25 | 1 | 39 | 2 | 0 | 3 | 190 | 64 | 1.815 | 10.7 | 1.8 | 5.7 | 8.8 | 1.56 | |
| 7 Seasons | 41 | 36 | .532 | 4.35 | 108 | 105 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 585.2 | 519 | 305 | 283 | 79 | 265 | 9 | 492 | 18 | 1 | 24 | 2525 | 98 | 1.339 | 8.0 | 1.2 | 4.1 | 7.6 | 1.86 | ||||
| 162 Game Avg. | 13 | 11 | .532 | 4.35 | 34 | 34 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 187 | 166 | 97 | 90 | 25 | 85 | 3 | 157 | 6 | 0 | 8 | 806 | 98 | 1.339 | 8.0 | 1.2 | 4.1 | 7.6 | 1.86 | ||||
| NYM (5 yrs) | 39 | 32 | .549 | 4.17 | 97 | 96 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 542.0 | 473 | 271 | 251 | 70 | 238 | 9 | 467 | 17 | 0 | 23 | 2322 | 102 | 1.312 | 7.9 | 1.2 | 4.0 | 7.8 | 1.96 | ||||
| BAL (2 yrs) | 2 | 4 | .333 | 6.60 | 11 | 9 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 43.2 | 46 | 34 | 32 | 9 | 27 | 0 | 25 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 203 | 67 | 1.672 | 9.5 | 1.9 | 5.6 | 5.2 | 0.93 | ||||
| NL (5 yrs) | 39 | 32 | .549 | 4.17 | 97 | 96 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 542.0 | 473 | 271 | 251 | 70 | 238 | 9 | 467 | 17 | 0 | 23 | 2322 | 102 | 1.312 | 7.9 | 1.2 | 4.0 | 7.8 | 1.96 | ||||
| AL (2 yrs) | 2 | 4 | .333 | 6.60 | 11 | 9 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 43.2 | 46 | 34 | 32 | 9 | 27 | 0 | 25 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 203 | 67 | 1.672 | 9.5 | 1.9 | 5.6 | 5.2 | 0.93 | ||||
And with that said…. HERE COMES THE INFAMY !!!!
Mets alumni celebrating birthdays today are:
Today would have been back up catcher from the ’76 team, Jay Kleven’s 61st birthday (1949) .
Recent Mets managerial candidate and current third base and their coach, Chip Hale is 46 (1964) .
New York Mets purchased catcher, Hawk Taylor from the Milwaukee Braves on December 2, 1963.
Mets drafted relief pitcher, Jerry Hinsley from the Pittsburgh Pirates on December 2, 1963.
Mets drafted third baseman, Wayne Garrett from the Atlanta Braves on December 2, 1968.
New York Mets signed free agent Bobby Bonilla of the Pittsburgh Pirates on December 2, 1991.This signing ranks as one of the worst Mets free agent signings o all time ( somewhere Oliver Perez is breathing a hard sigh of relief !)
New York Mets signed free agent pitcher – Not the drummer from Pink Floyd , Roger Mason on December 2, 1992.
Cleveland Indians signed first baseman,Eddie Murray of the New York Mets as a free agent on December 2, 1993. Eddie gets a raw deal about his time in New York. But when you look at his number – over forty home runs in two years while batting a combined .274, He was clearly one of the better players on those horrible Mets teams.
New York Mets signed free agent third baseman, Robin Ventura of the Chicago White Sox on December 2, 1998. Robin is quite possibly one of the best free agent signings the Mets has ever made.
Arizona Diamondbacks signed starting pitcher, Armando Reynoso of the New York Mets as a free agent on December 2, 1998.
Cleveland Indians signed reliever, Roberto Hernandez of the New York Mets as a free agent on December 2, 2006.
And while you are braving the chilly cold breath of Old Man Winter – don’t forget that there are just 120 days until the Mets open the 2011 season against the Florida Marlins in Miami and 127 days until the Mets 2011 home opener against the Washington Nationals at Citi Field.
Mo Vaugn has embedded himself at the Swiss Colony at your local mall !!
178 comments
metsfan4decades
12/2/2010-8:19am at 8:19 am (UTC -4)
I remember when Maine came up mid season, he pitched pretty well with his only downfall seeming to be a HR ball he’d give up most games. His performance in the ’06 post season certainly had me believing he’d be joining the rotation for good in ’07.
What happened from there is anyone’s guess. I don’t think anyone can deny he had talent. He always seemed to be injured though. If it wasn’t his arm, it was a problem with his hip he had in ST but didn’t admit to until the end of the season. Maybe he’s ‘too tough to a fault’. If he often tried to play through pain instead of addressing it, maybe it all wouldn’t have ended this way.
Or maybe the Mets just sucked at dealing with injuries.
I’m with you, I’ll be surprised if he’s not non tendered. Someone will probably take a chance on him. Maybe if his arm finally is or does get healthy enough he’ll be a decent pitcher.
rustyjr
12/2/2010-8:23am at 8:23 am (UTC -4)
I wish him well & I hope he catches on with another organization
kistics
12/2/2010-8:31am at 8:31 am (UTC -4)
What’s his injury status? Mets won’t tender his contract, but they can still sign him.
TRS86
12/2/2010-8:39am at 8:39 am (UTC -4)
He’s out with a John Maine and there is no time table on when someone will recover from a John Maine.
rustyjr
12/2/2010-8:41am at 8:41 am (UTC -4)
Lol and he is throwing like a Oliver Perez
kistics
12/2/2010-8:44am at 8:44 am (UTC -4)
Can’t they perform a Johan Santana on him?
TRS86
12/2/2010-8:48am at 8:48 am (UTC -4)
I am not sure how he will feel about that type of surgery. The addition of a scrotum is a very new surgery.
njstuckintx
12/2/2010-8:53am at 8:53 am (UTC -4)
Not really. There is Cher’s daughter/son, Chaz.
kistics
12/2/2010-8:54am at 8:54 am (UTC -4)
ouch….
Mr North Jersey
12/2/2010-11:00am at 11:00 am (UTC -4)
lol
Ceetar
12/2/2010-9:30am at 9:30 am (UTC -4)
I don’t know if he’s throwing yet, but he’s pain free from what I’ve heard. The Phillies doc seems to have correctly repaired what the Mets doctors didn’t even notice.
TRS86
12/2/2010-9:40am at 9:40 am (UTC -4)
Ok just a question. He is pain free from what? If he is not throwing, is he pain free from eating?
Ceetar
12/2/2010-9:47am at 9:47 am (UTC -4)
The “surgery was a success”?
stretching/exercising? etc.
I haven’t read up on specific Maine news recently. I don’t know what his timetable was, but like Santana, I imagine he’ll start throwing soon..
Ceetar
12/2/2010-9:49am at 9:49 am (UTC -4)
The data I want is never there. What _is_ his timetable? When will he throw? Because honestly, If he’s not going to really start throwing until later Jan/Feb, he might be more ammeniable to a base minor league invite/contract because it’s unlikely anyone else is going to offer him a real deal without him having thrown.
I tried to search for news on his actual recovery, but it’s all lost in the noise of talking about his non-tendering.
TRS86
12/2/2010-9:52am at 9:52 am (UTC -4)
Again, I see no point to any reports about him being pain free unless he is throwing.
As for inviting him back here, he like Ollie and Luis are better to be moved on.
Ceetar
12/2/2010-9:56am at 9:56 am (UTC -4)
Not to get all existential here, but pain-free is really the default state. You fix the external problem causing you pain, and you revert to that state.
You could make the case that you don’t believe he’s got the body/shoulder to even be able to pitch a month without redeveloping that pain, but you could also make the case that he’ll make it through the year with his newly repaired shoulder.
TRS86
12/2/2010-9:59am at 9:59 am (UTC -4)
Ceetar, seriously? How do you know you are pain free until you do what caused the pain to start with?
kingman 26
12/2/2010-9:54am at 9:54 am (UTC -4)
Maine was excellent in 2006 and 2007, and has been in injury-related decline for three years.
Being a good MLB pitcher is hard.
Ceetar
12/2/2010-9:59am at 9:59 am (UTC -4)
So how much was decline, how much was injury? If the surgery was a success, he should be better. But what caused the injury? his pitching mechanics, or just bad luck? Or will he be able to alter his mechanics with a healthy shoulder to avoid straining it again? All important questions to consider, even if he’s probably not worth a 2.6million dollar gamble.
TRS86
12/2/2010-10:01am at 10:01 am (UTC -4)
If the surgery was a success he should be better? Why?
It’s shoulder surgery. Nothing is a guarantee there. Don’t we worry enough about that with Johan. If he has not even began throwing yet, how the hell would you even know if the surgery was a success? By physical therapy?
Ceetar
12/2/2010-10:05am at 10:05 am (UTC -4)
we’re guaging success here differently.
Capsule was torn. Doctor goes in. repairs the tear. Capsule is now healed. success.
Obviously nothing at all is a guarantee, but time does heal, these things aren’t unprecedented. He could find pain from something else wrong. he could sleep wrong and pinch a nerve.
but the pain was caused by the torn capsule, which is no longer torn. remove the cause, and the effect goes away right?
TRS86
12/2/2010-10:09am at 10:09 am (UTC -4)
Ever had surgery Ceetar? That is not the case most of the time.
Again until he starts throwing we will never know if he is pain free and knowing Maine he would never tell you. Me, Me, Me.
kingman 26
12/2/2010-10:04am at 10:04 am (UTC -4)
Ceetar, some athletes at the highest pro level just do not have the ability to be the same after several years of several injuries.
Ceetar
12/2/2010-10:08am at 10:08 am (UTC -4)
I don’t think that has anything to do with athletes. It’s just how the human body behaves.
I’m not even sure what we’re arguing about here. All I’m saying is Maine had a successful surgery to repair what was damaged. From there, certainly anything can happen. He could be hit by a taxi cab tomorrow. A vast majority of major league pitchers have had some sort of injury or surgery and do pitch successfully in the Major Leagues. I don’t think that’s beyond John Maine at this point. time will certainly tell.
TRS86
12/2/2010-10:12am at 10:12 am (UTC -4)
We don’t know if that surgery was successful until he starts throwing. I am sorry. Yes a doctor can go in and say we repaired the damage. So from that stand point the doctor may be successful. Maine will not know if the surgery was a success until he throws. Then you would have to base it on performance because trusting Maine to tell you would be risky at best.
Ceetar
12/2/2010-10:14am at 10:14 am (UTC -4)
We could go back to the ‘respect’ factor with leadership here. But Warthen’s still here, so who knows.
kingman 26
12/2/2010-9:53am at 9:53 am (UTC -4)
Ceetar buddy, with all due respect, I am sure you think Fernando Martinez is a pain-free iron man.
TRS86
12/2/2010-9:56am at 9:56 am (UTC -4)
LOL, no need for that Kingman.
I am just puzzled why it matters if he is pain free if he is not even throwing the ball.
Besides, with Maine, who the hell could tell if he was actually pain free? Considering he is a bit of a habitual liar.
njstuckintx
12/2/2010-9:58am at 9:58 am (UTC -4)
Doctor – if you don’t move your arm, it doesn’t hurt, right?
Maine – Correct!
Doctor – ok, don’t move your arm. Next!
Ceetar
12/2/2010-10:03am at 10:03 am (UTC -4)
You all get on me because i’m too..symphathizing? with the players, but I can envision it going like this:
Maine has a surgery. He still feels pain because the Mets missed the real damage. 2010 comes around and he’s in Spring Training trying to make his resurgance. He feels that pain and tightness in his shoulder or whatever, but knows that he just had surgery, and worries that his shoulder is just too far gone to ever really heal. He knows there is no damage because he just had surgery, so in his mind there is nothing surgically to be done. He starts figuring maybe once he builds up muscle. Maybe he just has to pitch through it and find a comfort zone. He knows if he speaks up he’s not going to get to pitch. He’s deterimined and confident that he _can_ be a successful pitcher, even with the pain until it really becomes just too obvious.
kingman 26
12/2/2010-10:06am at 10:06 am (UTC -4)
Ceetar, I really don’t mean to be an obnoxious bully type, but I must say, most respectfully, that your “optimism” quite often manifests itself in a manner that many, many older fans could easily construe as being VERY unrealistic, based on things that actually happen in baseball.
You consistently express ideas which may be optimistic, but also can be interpreted as being very unrealistic and just plain unlikely to be accurate.
Ceetar
12/2/2010-10:10am at 10:10 am (UTC -4)
But you often fail to convince me that your supposed “realistic” alternative is really anymore likely.
Do we have numbers somewhere of the amount of pitchers with capsule tears that ever throw a pitch again in teh major leagues versus those that don’t? Which did you think is more common?
TRS86
12/2/2010-10:13am at 10:13 am (UTC -4)
Is that really the point?
The point to all of this is that Maine is damaged goods and until he starts throwing no one will know if the surgery was a complete success or not.
kingman 26
12/2/2010-10:14am at 10:14 am (UTC -4)
Ceetar, really I am not an a-hole.
No, I don’t have capsule tear stats.
I just think that expecting Maine or Ollie to ever again be what they were in 2007 is unrealistic.
Ceetar
12/2/2010-10:16am at 10:16 am (UTC -4)
I have not once brought up what I think Ollie or Maine will put up, statistically, in 2011 or mentioned 2007 or 2008.
The closest I’ve come is saying I’d take a 50k (or whatever minor league minimum is. or less) chance on Maine if he was willing, on the (pick as low a number as you like here)% chance he can contribute this year.
TRS86
12/2/2010-10:22am at 10:22 am (UTC -4)
But why? Why can’t we just move on from these type players? It’s not like there are not tons of other players just as likely or more likely to be successful for the Mets.
Ceetar
12/2/2010-10:29am at 10:29 am (UTC -4)
Strength in numbers? I mean, we have three pitchers. Why move on? To find another iffy pitcher from another organization that has his own problems, and then throw in the whole NY factor or whatever? Maine’s a competitor and I like that. He’s succeeded here. He’s friends with guys on the team. I would take _every_ pitcher “like him” I could find. Invite them all, stock Buffalo and Binghamton’s rotation (obviously not to the point where the 2-3 actual pitching prospects we have get hidden). If Sandy sees a guy he evaluates as having a better shot at contributing than Maine? yeah, grab him if you can.
You think Chris Young is coming here for a minor league invite? (Not that I know Maine is, but he seems to have less options since Young actually pitched atthe end of the season and ‘proved’ he’s currently healthy)
TRS86
12/2/2010-10:07am at 10:07 am (UTC -4)
And thus he lies and hurts the team and his career.
Again, why do we care? Good bye Johnny.
wannybackstra
12/2/2010-10:33am at 10:33 am (UTC -4)
I’m never quick to agree with TRS (it actually happens more frequently than it seems because the disagreements are so much more fun!) but he is dead on with this. “Successful surgery” usually means little more than that the patient survived the surgery. Until the guy is actually pitching I don’t understand how you can assume, or even hope that he is on his road to recovery.
Shoulder injuries have been much more damaging to pitchers’ careers than elbows. This is a well documented fact.
I don’t see any reason to bring John Maine back. Because he was good in 2007 before his shoulder fell apart over the next three?
oleosmirf
12/2/2010-10:37am at 10:37 am (UTC -4)
i think virtually every player on the FA list is a better option than John Maine at this point.
TRS86
12/2/2010-11:37am at 11:37 am (UTC -4)
I agree that they most likely are a better option for the METS.
njstuckintx
12/2/2010-8:52am at 8:52 am (UTC -4)
I never understood how one man could throw so many pitches that would be fouled off.
njstuckintx
12/2/2010-9:14am at 9:14 am (UTC -4)
So, are we guessing that everyone but Maine gets tendered?
kistics
12/2/2010-9:20am at 9:20 am (UTC -4)
who else is there? Pagan, Green and Dickey?
kistics
12/2/2010-9:22am at 9:22 am (UTC -4)
and Pelf too.
metsfan4decades
12/2/2010-9:27am at 9:27 am (UTC -4)
Green….ugh.
njstuckintx
12/2/2010-9:31am at 9:31 am (UTC -4)
I feel you on this. But, what’s 160K if it doesn’t work out? Other than like a couple year’s salary for us lay people.
metsfan4decades
12/2/2010-9:37am at 9:37 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, I know. Very valid point. After watching Green though for a couple of years, I just can’t help thinking it will be throwing good money after bad….
Given the very thin BP we have right now, I won’t be surprised to see the Mets take a chance on him.
rustyjr
12/2/2010-9:21am at 9:21 am (UTC -4)
It’s all but done
njstuckintx
12/2/2010-9:54am at 9:54 am (UTC -4)
TRS, any word on your boy Davies being non-tendered yet?
TRS86
12/2/2010-9:58am at 9:58 am (UTC -4)
None. I hope he is not and we can trade a guy like Evans for him. I think there would be decent competition on the open market.
stickguy
12/2/2010-11:03am at 11:03 am (UTC -4)
question on that. If he is non-tendered, isn’t he an immediate FA, with the Royals losing all rights? Meaning that there will be no need to trade anyone, just sign him to a contract?
TRS86
12/2/2010-11:19am at 11:19 am (UTC -4)
Correct, however I think the chances of us getting him are then reduced.
kingman 26
12/2/2010-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
“Armando Benitez clone , Jorge Julio”
OUCH!
OK, this is just not fair!
I mean, from April till July, the guy was an all-star every year!
Seriously, along with Castillo and Sisk, the most unfairly and outrageously over-maligned players in Met history.
fongy2
12/2/2010-10:10am at 10:10 am (UTC -4)
More maligned than Castillo and Sisk!
I’ve made this argument b/f BUT what’s the diff b/t Benitez and Billy
Wags exactly?
TRS86
12/2/2010-10:13am at 10:13 am (UTC -4)
Not much of anything Fongy. Only Billy was GRITTTTTTTTTTTTTY and called out his teammates all the time.
kingman 26
12/2/2010-10:15am at 10:15 am (UTC -4)
Good point.
I know Benitez choked some big games; no doubt. But yeah, Wagner sure did too! They called him “GAG-ner” in Philly.
But Benitez was often outstanding. Often. And for years.
fongy2
12/2/2010-10:20am at 10:20 am (UTC -4)
Hate to admit it BUT my Wife of all people said….And I quote
” I wouldn’t be so happy if I were you, he’s only gonna break
your heart in a big spot”…The day we signed Wagner.
And never mind just the ’06 playoffs…..I can clearly remember
him coming into a 4-0 non-save situation againstthe yanks
on aSunday when we were about to sweep them @Shea,only
to blow the lead and game. I think it was then that he lost me.
metsfan4decades
12/2/2010-10:19am at 10:19 am (UTC -4)
To me, when Benitez came in you could almost tell if he was ‘on’ after throwing like 3 pitches. If he wasn’t, you just held your breath b/c you knew that ball was sailing out.
It could be just my memory but with Wagner, I think he was a bit more consistent. Other than the ‘big’ games, of course – and that included the ASGs.
fongy2
12/2/2010-10:21am at 10:21 am (UTC -4)
With all due respect…I think it’s faulty memory
Benitez was pretty lights out 90% of the time, like Wags BUT
in a big spot, we had to hold our breath.
Ceetar
12/2/2010-10:31am at 10:31 am (UTC -4)
Benitez helped blow what may have been a shot at a World Series title, Wagner only helped blow what may have been a shot at a World Series appearance. (Certainly more culpable than Beltran)
fongy2
12/2/2010-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
Understood BUT lets be real, there was ALOT better chance
of us beating The Tigers in ’06 than the yanks in ’00.
wannybackstra
12/2/2010-10:24am at 10:24 am (UTC -4)
I always thought Juan Samuel was unfairly maligned. Not because he was any good but because everyone except the front office knew at the time what a disaster that deal would be.
But ironic how Samuel’s performance declined and Dykstra’s ascended once they switched clubhouses. Was there a more juiced up clubhouse than that Phillies team’s?
fongy2
12/2/2010-10:26am at 10:26 am (UTC -4)
The A’s.
wannybackstra
12/2/2010-10:38am at 10:38 am (UTC -4)
D’oh. Of course.
stickguy
12/2/2010-11:05am at 11:05 am (UTC -4)
and the yankees at one time.
but the phils with daulton, Dykstra, and a few others were right up there.
wannybackstra
12/2/2010-10:13am at 10:13 am (UTC -4)
Good bye John Maine. In all these years here, we hardly got to know ye.
TRS86
12/2/2010-10:14am at 10:14 am (UTC -4)
2nd.
kingman 26
12/2/2010-10:16am at 10:16 am (UTC -4)
Agreed. I thought he would be great after that 2007 year.
Huge disappointment, and I really do hope he manages to recover his career.
metsfan4decades
12/2/2010-10:16am at 10:16 am (UTC -4)
IMO, there is just no way to tell anything about Maine until he starts pitching. He barely got started in the majors before he got hurt. I have no idea what his ceiling ever really projected to be. I remember reading somewhere that he should have been moved to the BP years ago but can’t remember if that was based more on statistics or just his inability to get past 5 innings due to all the fouls hit off him.
Wasn’t it Carl Pavano that the Yankees gave like a 4 year contract to that maybe pitched one game at the major league level for them due to injuries? And last year after finally pitching healthy he had some success?
Could go that way for Maine but it’s too much money to take the chance. Besides, I’m thinking the bridge with the Mets has been burned based on what happened with him, Jerry and Warthen last year.
TRS86
12/2/2010-10:24am at 10:24 am (UTC -4)
Dang 4D, I should have waited for you to post. You made my discussion with Ceetar much clearer.
metsfan4decades
12/2/2010-10:42am at 10:42 am (UTC -4)
lol…..
I often enjoy reading Ceetar’s opinion as he’s definitely an ‘Optimistic’ Met fan who often does use facts to back up his opinion. –Unlike some Met fans. (Read a ‘debate’ on MLBTR last year where one poster would not give up on ‘Frenchy is good and worth a contract’.)
On the Maine point though, I’m waving bye-bye.
It’s not only the health issues with Maine, it’s the whole no communication issue that went on. Warthen is never going to trust him and I’ll bet Maine will be pitching with a chip on his shoulder. Which, come to think of it, would probably just lead to another injury (pun intended).
saltygary
12/2/2010-10:17am at 10:17 am (UTC -4)
Rusty, you got your Pink Floyd reference mixed up:
“New York Mets signed free agent pitcher – Not the drummer from Pink Floyd , Roger Mason on December 2, 1992.”
Nick Mason is the Drummer and Roger Waters is the bassist.
BTW anyone else see Rogers current “The Wall” show. Saw it a couple months ago in Boston, one of the best things I’ve ever seen.
rustyjr
12/2/2010-11:02am at 11:02 am (UTC -4)
It was 4 am lol
kingman 26
12/2/2010-11:57am at 11:57 am (UTC -4)
I am sure you were comfortably numb at the time….
oleosmirf
12/2/2010-10:21am at 10:21 am (UTC -4)
the only way Maine comes back is if every other team wont even give him a ST invite and the Mets let him tryout solely out of sympathy…
TRS86
12/2/2010-10:25am at 10:25 am (UTC -4)
And my point is why do you even do that? Why not break the ties with these guys? It’s not like there are not many more guys just like John out there to choose from.
oleosmirf
12/2/2010-10:27am at 10:27 am (UTC -4)
O i agree with you 100%. cutting ties is the best option although something tells me his next destination will be Newark, Somerset or Long Island
fongy2
12/2/2010-10:28am at 10:28 am (UTC -4)
Agreed!….How many guys do we want coming into S.T.
recovering from injuries, questions surrounding them?
Ceetar
12/2/2010-10:47am at 10:47 am (UTC -4)
Because it’s not a science. it’s a game of percentages.
You could’ve made the same argument, and many did, about bringing in a 34 year old guy who turned to the knucklerball cause he sucked otherwise and hasn’t really shown a whole lot of success with it.
Because if he’s willing, there is little downside to giving him a minor league deal. It’s not a lot of money. Bring ‘em all in and toss the ones with the least promise when you actually have to worry about roster size. you can _never_ have too many gutshot guys in Spring Training.
metsfan4decades
12/2/2010-11:01am at 11:01 am (UTC -4)
It’s not just the questions of his health and pitching though, ceet. It’s the whole Warthen calling him out, Maine complaining no one talked to him about going on the DL, and the standoff on the mound continuing into the dugout with Jerry issues.
Yeah, Jerry is gone but Warthen is still here. It’s just been my experience that when communication breaks down to that point with any employee, often that relationship is forever damaged.
Ceetar
12/2/2010-11:06am at 11:06 am (UTC -4)
Sounds like an argument that Warthen shoudn’t be here.
But those issues are part of the problem of last year, and the idea should be that the leadership group is corrected.
And none of that’s an issue if he does make it back to the team and pitches well. Getting along with the pitching coach should not matter. if guys can pitch, get them here. if they can’t, cut them.
oleosmirf
12/2/2010-11:19am at 11:19 am (UTC -4)
why are you so loyal to the players. he hasnt done anything of value to us in years why not try someone else?
Ceetar
12/2/2010-11:23am at 11:23 am (UTC -4)
why so desperate to prefer someone else just because he hasn’t failed for _us_ yet?
players are merely pawns. The one in front of me is the same as the one in front of the guy down the hall.
wannybackstra
12/2/2010-11:29am at 11:29 am (UTC -4)
BECAUSE THIS ONE HAS NOT BEEN HEALTHY ENOUGH TO PITCH IN YEARS.
oleosmirf
12/2/2010-11:31am at 11:31 am (UTC -4)
what wanny said
Ceetar
12/2/2010-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
You make the evaulation on 2011 on 2011. If he can be healthy in 2011, he can be healthy in 2011. I won’t turn down a pitcher that maybe can contribute because he wasn’t able to in 2010.
Isn’t that why people think they like Alderson? Because he’s going to make decisions about what he feels is best for the future rather than correct the past?
TRS86
12/2/2010-11:35am at 11:35 am (UTC -4)
I say we bring in Mike Hampton too Ceetar. Why not? Lets bring him and Pedro, Elduque, Doc Gooden, Glavine, Julio, Graves….
wannybackstra
12/2/2010-11:48am at 11:48 am (UTC -4)
Ceetar — I hope you heard Alderson discuss his theory on player acquisitions being based on probabilities. The probability of Maine being able to help this team given his recurrent shoulder problems is pretty slim. Had he pitched in winter ball and proved himself healthy then perhaps someone other than you would see the pot of gold on the John Maine rainbow.
Ceetar
12/2/2010-11:53am at 11:53 am (UTC -4)
even if the probability is 5%, the cost is virtually nil.
I mean, would you toss a quarter in a pot if you had a slim chance of winning an HDTV?
oleosmirf
12/2/2010-11:58am at 11:58 am (UTC -4)
no Ceetar i would put my quarter in the pot considering there are other pots which a much better chance of succeeding
Ceetar
12/2/2010-12:02pm at 12:02 pm (UTC -4)
You don’t know the odds. of any of the pots. it’s all just a guess. Just because you tossed a quarter into the Maine pot in previous years and lost, says nothinga bout the probability of the other pots.
wannybackstra
12/2/2010-12:02pm at 12:02 pm (UTC -4)
The cost is not nil. First off, he takes away a Spring Training roster spot from someone who has a reasonable chance to make the team. That’s called an opportunity cost.
Second, when his arm falls out of its socket the Mets will be left with yet another medical bill as well as the cleanup cost from the blood spilling.
TRS86
12/2/2010-11:25am at 11:25 am (UTC -4)
What I said just below.
Maine is and should be done for the Mets. I don’t hate the guy but like Perez and Castillo you are setting yourself up for failure.
njstuckintx
12/2/2010-11:26am at 11:26 am (UTC -4)
So what about Green?
TRS86
12/2/2010-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
I think I feel the same way, however I am more inclined to give him another chance before Maine.
TRS86
12/2/2010-11:23am at 11:23 am (UTC -4)
You are right it is a game of percentages but why play a game that you stink at? Play a different game. There are plenty of John Maine’s to choose from, why go down that particular road that is most likely setting it self up for failure.
I still don’t see why you are so quick to blame Warthen instead of the player himself.
Ceetar
12/2/2010-11:30am at 11:30 am (UTC -4)
Because it’s Warthen’s job to use Maine to the best of his ability, and I don’t believe he did that. (or did so with others)
Sure, they both take the blame, but what Maine did wrong is more easily correctable than Warthen’s poor leadership skills. And I’m not really concerned with that, because I”m talkingabout his ability to take a ball and throw it this spring, not how he’s going to interface with Dan. We can evaluate Maine based on that performance regardless of what faults he had last year in discussions with management. And because it’s Warthen’s job to get Maine to tell the truth or know if he’s injured.
I do not believe there are such things as uncoachable players, and certainly not that Maine is a malcontent or cancer. If you can’t lead your players, i want someone that can.
TRS86
12/2/2010-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
Seriously? Damn I wish I had not read this line.
“And because it’s Warthen’s job to get Maine to tell the truth or know if he’s injured. ”
As for no uncoachable players? That is just plain untrue. The halls here are full of them. I guess if I have to cut a player that is uncoachable then it’s my fault for not reaching him. Dang Ceetar, hold the player accountable.
Ceetar
12/2/2010-11:39am at 11:39 am (UTC -4)
we’re confusing the issue here though. It’s not a Maine OR Warthen thing. I feel Warthen failed in what he was supposed to do.
You know the inmates running the aslyum thing? Warthen knew Maine was injured and let himself be convinced that Maine should pitch and then they changed their mind after one batter. The results and data were in front of him in that bullpen session (and likely earlier) and he chose to ignore them.
Every single player on the majors or minors wants to be a successful player. Some players may be hateful people and not want to be told what to do, but when you do your job, i.e. produce, you get that benefit. They may get to pretend they’re not being coached, but they are being sent out there to their position and in that position in the lineup every day. Other players, like Maine, are different. But really, what more can you ask than go out there and try your hardest?
TRS86
12/2/2010-11:42am at 11:42 am (UTC -4)
To be honest?
Maine knew he was injured and could not help the team. Maine lied and said he was good. Thus it’s Warthen’s fault for trusting his liar of a player.
Ceetar
12/2/2010-11:49am at 11:49 am (UTC -4)
Come on, you really think Maine only went out there thinking he was going to get shelled?
Did he get to a 2-1 count and think “I’m gonna try to hit the outside corner here, but i’ll probably miss and he’ll smack it out of the park”
I think Maine believed right to the end that he’d be able to get them out. set them up right, 86mph or pitch counts be damned. He knows who Jamie Moyer is just as well as we do.
TRS86
12/2/2010-11:40am at 11:40 am (UTC -4)
Try 83 for that game.
Warthen goes up to Maine, what the hell was that Maine?
Oh I am good just taking some time to warm up I will be good.
So there’s nothing wrong?
I am fine. I promise just like always.
OK I trust my guy….
Ceetar
12/2/2010-11:46am at 11:46 am (UTC -4)
85-86. lets at least keep the facts right. gameday confirms.
What’s the player supposed to say? Uhh, no, I don’t think I can get it done. Maine really did think that he just needed to warm up.
metsfan4decades
12/2/2010-11:50am at 11:50 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, that whole scenario was just bizarre. I remember talking to my Dad after that, commenting on not knowing just who was playing games that day?
If Warthen knew that BP session before the game didn’t look right, and it’s part of his job to prepare these guys, then if/when Maine said ‘I’m fine’, Warthen should have said, ‘well then let a couple rip. I’d like to see your idea of fine’. Or something to that effect.
Instead, sounds like Warthen had his doubts, but he took Maine’s word for it all the while letting Jerry know what he suspected. Maine was pulled after 5 pitches – five. That tells me Warthen knew, didn’t believe Maine AND told Jerry. IMO, there is no way after only 5 pitchers you could declare a pitcher done for the day unless you suspected it before hand.
oleosmirf
12/2/2010-11:36am at 11:36 am (UTC -4)
so what should Warthen have done. If you watched the games on TV it was quite obvious that Maine couldnt get the job done.
I dont see what the pitching coach can do when you’re not throwing ur other pitchers b/c ur arm hurts so the only pitch he was throwing was a dead straight fastball topping out at 88 mph
Ceetar
12/2/2010-11:45am at 11:45 am (UTC -4)
he had some good moments.
But look at it this way, you’re pitcher is struggling with the He was struggling with the way he was pitching. He decided to change how he was pitching and Warthen was pretty much like “Do whatever you want.” and then 3 games later his velocity dropped in his bullpen, noticiably, but Warthen let him go out there and pitch anyway.
He started the season with Warthen telling him to pitch one way, and Jerry telling him he was going to pull him from the rotation if he kept getting the results he was getting if he pitched that way. But no one seemed to have a better solution, so Maine went about it his own way. The same with Perez. results aside, they seemed to give up on both of them (among other guys at times) and as hard as the job may be, you can’t give up on your players. that’s poor leadership.
I was reading moneyball the other day, and they were talking about a catcher they acquired to play first base. He went through spring training struggling in the field and afraid to field the ball. But the coach kept on him, kept working with him, kept his confidence up. And the player kept working hard and eventually got better and more confident and trusted himself to make the plays. That’s a good coach, and I don’t see things like that in Warthen.
metsfan4decades
12/2/2010-11:56am at 11:56 am (UTC -4)
I can see your point, to an extent.
It was poor communication all the way around. I just don’t know if either side can get past any bad feelings on this one. Maine just might be one of those who benefits from a change of scenery, if healthy.
Perez, on the other hand, is a different story – IMO. I’ll give him credit for the training camp during last off season. Just seems to me though that no matter who worked with him, he just isn’t getting it. He just doesn’t know how to pitch. Remember that story last season with Koufax working with him a little? LOL…I remember reading one story concerning that, that if you read between the lines, even Koufax thought he was a head case.
Ceetar
12/2/2010-12:06pm at 12:06 pm (UTC -4)
What i’m suggesting is basically a gutshot anyway. Maine would have to willingly accept a minor league deal, which means he’s willing to work with Warthen. I’m fine if you want to run the idea past Warthen first. And that would mean when Spring Training arrived, both parties have signed off on working together.
Perez is an extremely talented headcase. Peterson had some small success with getting him in line, but he’s never really learned the art of pitching. If he doesn’t get the talent back to what it was, he’s capable of getting guys out if he learns how to set up hitters, his pitches still have good movement, but i’m doubtful on that after all this time. Unless two years of failure and his velocity not returning is a wakeup call.
metsfan4decades
12/2/2010-12:14pm at 12:14 pm (UTC -4)
Concerning Maine, I think if we non tender him, and the best he’s going to get is a minor league contract, probably the last team he’ll sign with is the Mets.
On Perez, from what I’ve been reading the past 6 months or so, he’s still firmly believes he can pitch at the ML level. Obviously, I don’t have enough details on what he’s been doing in the fall league, but if he thinks 10 scoreless innings at that level, with a subpar velocity on his FB translates to success at the ML w/o any adjustments in that loss of velocity, then he really is delusional.
rustyjr
12/2/2010-11:03am at 11:03 am (UTC -4)
Damn had I known that I would stir up a hornets nest I woulda brought popcorn lol
metsfan4decades
12/2/2010-11:11am at 11:11 am (UTC -4)
Yum….popcorn. Can I get some grated cheese on mine?
kingman 26
12/2/2010-11:58am at 11:58 am (UTC -4)
Mmmmmm….how about some toffee popcorn too….
Prismo
12/2/2010-12:01pm at 12:01 pm (UTC -4)
have you contacted Grave?
kingman 26
12/2/2010-12:13pm at 12:13 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, and no response yet…I will email everyone and also post it on here if/when I hear back….
metsfan4decades
12/2/2010-12:15pm at 12:15 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks. I was just thinking about him – wondering where he’d weigh in on the Maine debate.
Here’s hoping everything is O.K. in his world.
Mr North Jersey
12/2/2010-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
I think this is the longest he has been without some form of contact.
Hope all is well.
njstuckintx
12/2/2010-11:06am at 11:06 am (UTC -4)
So… How about them Mets?
Also, going back to the whole Chris Young thing. With the tweeter twits that throw out anything without confirming it, just so they can be the first, is frustrating and plays with my mind. Just saying.
stickguy
12/2/2010-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
at least with Young he can never blame it on miscommunication with his agent.
stickguy
12/2/2010-11:12am at 11:12 am (UTC -4)
lively here this AM isn’t it.
my opinion (I know you have all been wiating with bated breath) is that first of all, Warthen needed to go. If you even have to bring up last years debacles when deciding to offer a contract to a guy, it was a mistake keeping him (not that it wasn’t anyway, for you clean break people!)
as to Maine, of course he doesn’t get tendered, but I agree with ceetar that I am inviting anyone that ever had a live arm (just about) to ST on an invite. I am more interested in finding out if he can actually beat the odds and come back with a shoulder that isn’t hurting, and get his stuff back. If not, let him walk. The histroy is just crap, and I think the warthen “liar” comment has been blown way out of perspective (like the reyes losing focus comment).
The guys they needed a clean break from were Omar, Jerry and the coaches. and except for Warthen, we got that. The rest get a clean slate to earn there way into a job.
TRS86
12/2/2010-11:27am at 11:27 am (UTC -4)
Why not take advantage and make a clean break from some of these players too?
There has to be 25 guys that we can get similar to Maine without the baggage here. I am sure they may have baggage of their own but at least it was not played out on the Mets mound and clubhouse.
stickguy
12/2/2010-11:43am at 11:43 am (UTC -4)
ollie has baggage you need to consider. maine doesn’t. Certainly not to any level that would cause you to not take a look to see if he can help.
metsfan4decades
12/2/2010-11:31am at 11:31 am (UTC -4)
Can’t say I would have been disappointed with a new pitching coach. Not quite sure why they kept Warthen. Are pitching coaches the same as BP arms? Or a box of chocolates? Never know what you’re going to get….
oleosmirf
12/2/2010-11:37am at 11:37 am (UTC -4)
b/c the players like him and besides the guys like Perez, Maine, Valdes who suck regardless of pitching coach, the other pitchers did quite well last season. if it aint broke, dont fix it.
kingman 26
12/2/2010-12:02pm at 12:02 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, that thing about Reyes losing focus, that’s crazy.
I mean, it is only utterly obvious to anyone who watches him play AND he openly publicly admitted it.
Crazy, overblown, conspiracy nonsense all the way.
stickguy
12/2/2010-12:36pm at 12:36 pm (UTC -4)
you missed the point about being blown out of proportion.
a candid comment about rarely zoning out gets turned into being lazy, unfocused, a slacker, etc. Missing also the part where it says every player does on occasion.
kingman 26
12/2/2010-12:40pm at 12:40 pm (UTC -4)
No, totally disappearing down the stretch every year, behaving like a diva when disciplined or asked to move spots in the order, repeatedly zoning out while playing your position, and having absolutely zero improvement in overall baseball instincts after all this time is what
“gets turned into being lazy, unfocused, a slacker, etc.”
kingman 26
12/2/2010-12:42pm at 12:42 pm (UTC -4)
And I guess every time you bring this up I will again cite the signature Jose Reyes play.
The day after Utley’s horrible slide into Tejada, which allegedly infuriated the team, Reyes is on first….while leading off the base, he is clearly smiling widely while joking with Howard, and then gets picked off first.
What exactly does that say about him?
That he is a lazy, unfocused slacker.
stickguy
12/2/2010-12:56pm at 12:56 pm (UTC -4)
I was going to add this play, to save you the trouble, but I know how much you like to cite it.
personally, I don’t think it makes any grand statements about reyes at all. and sure as hell has nothing to do with lazy or slacking, 2 things he is not.
kingman 26
12/2/2010-1:33pm at 1:33 pm (UTC -4)
Well, it sure showed his teammates how angry he was about Utley’s slide didn’t it? And what a great teammate he is? After Wright was infuriated in the clubhouse and expressed it to the media and even Beltran of all people slid hard into second. Jose giggles and gets easily distracted and gets picked off.
And as it was one of FOUR times in that three game series he was thrown out on the basepaths, it sure didn’t show what an unfocused slacker he is.
Yes, let’s review his September numbers again every year and throw 80 million at him.
Da Nile ain’t just a river in Africa.
njstuckintx
12/2/2010-1:44pm at 1:44 pm (UTC -4)
It says that he’s a human being. This is not the North vs. the South here, nor Cowboys vs. Indians, nor Santa Anna vs. Davey Crockett.
He may have been unfocused on that play, but I can’t vilify him as a lazy slacker cause he’s joking with the “enemy”. Please flip teams all the time. It’s in no one interest to hate this team or that, when they can be playing for that same team in 3 months time.
I guess, I just disagree.
stickguy
12/2/2010-1:54pm at 1:54 pm (UTC -4)
Kingman isn’t giving up on the Reyes issue. Trust me on this.
most players get picked off when they are being agressive, and taking big leads, looking to steal. I find it hard to believe that Reyes was just wandering around, looking at the clouds, not paying any attention to the pitcher.
None of us have no idea why he laughed. Maybe Howard told him a great polish joke, or made fun of Chaaallleees accent. Maybe they are good friends off the field.
I just don’t think it makes him lazy, unfocused or a slacker.
and every report I have ever heard about him is that he works hard. He also played 4 years straight missing only IIRC 4 games. Absolutely unheard of for a SS, and a way more likely explanation for fading in September.
a lazy player or a slacker wouldn’t play every inning like that. A slacker wouldn’t try to play wrapped up like a mummy.
ANd some pretty damned good players over the years have brain farted on the field, forgotten how many outs there were, done stupid things, stuff like that. Doesn’t mean they are unfocused slackers.
kingman 26
12/2/2010-2:25pm at 2:25 pm (UTC -4)
“most players get picked off when they are being aggressive, and taking big leads, looking to steal.”
LOL!
He was laughing and joking and not paying attention! I was watching the game!
I know players are all pals now, but still, I cannot recall EVER seeing another player so easily distracted and picked off like that. Because most other players focus far more than Jose.
Jose missed a total of 15 games from 2005–2008; unheard of for a SS? Hmmmm……
And how many guys play 150+ games a year and still manage to play well in September? Many, many, many.
And, incidentally, several of those missed games were mid-season 2006 when he slid into first base headfirst like an absolute moron, hurt his hand, and was out for a few games. More maturity and instincts kicking in here.
Hey, you both know I not only respect the hell out of both of you, but enjoy both of your presences on here hugely.
I just disagree on this issue, and very sincerely hope to be proved wrong by a healthy and focused return to the 2006–2008 all-star Jose.
njstuckintx
12/2/2010-2:35pm at 2:35 pm (UTC -4)
All good, Holmes. Never was it not.
kingman 26
12/2/2010-2:36pm at 2:36 pm (UTC -4)
Thank you sir and right back at ya!
kingman 26
12/2/2010-3:51pm at 3:51 pm (UTC -4)
And Stick knows quite well how I feel about him.
stickguy
12/2/2010-11:16am at 11:16 am (UTC -4)
forgot to add something.
remember all the talk about Maine being better in the pen? Well, last I checked, there are some openings. So why not add him to the mix with the rest of the crud trying out for a job out there?
njstuckintx
12/2/2010-11:19am at 11:19 am (UTC -4)
He’s a starting pitcher. Just ask him!
wannybackstra
12/2/2010-11:25am at 11:25 am (UTC -4)
he doesn’t throw enough strikes to pitch in the bullpen. we already have bobby parnell to walk half the opposing team.
plus, i doubt he’s the type of guy who will pitch on consecutive days because of his health and because of 50 pitches it takes to get through an inning.
TRS86
12/2/2010-11:27am at 11:27 am (UTC -4)
I am not sure the 100 foul balls in relief is a good idea either.
fongy2
12/2/2010-11:30am at 11:30 am (UTC -4)
Agreed BUT Izzy and Smoltz found new life following arm injuries
when moved to the BP. I do agree though, kinda like trying to
move Ollie to the Pen.
Ceetar
12/2/2010-2:02pm at 2:02 pm (UTC -4)
Honestly might be a good idea, less strain on a recovering shoulder and gives him more time to build up arm strength. He’s traditionally got a good K rate, although the walks could be troublesome.
Of course, that’s going outside the philosophy that once you fail for the Mets, you’re no good to us anymore.
kistics
12/2/2010-11:28am at 11:28 am (UTC -4)
Does anyone know if the Mets can get insurance money if Johan is out for a long time next season?
TRS86
12/2/2010-11:30am at 11:30 am (UTC -4)
That was a hot debate when he was signed. Something about how the insurance guys would not go over 4 years or something. Not sure if that meant they would insure just those 4 years or not insure the contract at all.
kistics
12/2/2010-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
I’m hearing something like June/July return for him, but with the shoulder surgeries you never know. I was wondering if the Mets can somehow recover his salary next season and use it for mid-season acquisitions.
oleosmirf
12/2/2010-11:38am at 11:38 am (UTC -4)
Collins said June/July which means most likely August/Sept
stickguy
12/2/2010-11:41am at 11:41 am (UTC -4)
I look at it as, be glad if he does anything worthwhile for the team in 2011. Plan on as if he won’t pitch at all.
Hell, at this point after shoulder surgery, I would not give odds better than 50/50 he ever pitches effectively again. COuld end up being Maine v2.0
Ceetar
12/2/2010-11:54am at 11:54 am (UTC -4)
I doubt that personally, but anything is certainly possible.
You obviously don’t count on him, but I think it’s fairly reasonable that he could be back for the stretch run.
metsfan4decades
12/2/2010-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
Good question. I’ve seen this posted a few places but no one seems to have an answer.
I remember reading the same type thing real is saying…..pitchers are insured for limited years, especially if it’s a long contract or they’re up there in age. I believe that’s why we ate 10MIL on Wagner. I think he was insured for all but that last year.
kingman 26
12/2/2010-12:06pm at 12:06 pm (UTC -4)
I really don’t think so—-I think contract of that length and expense, especially for a pitcher who had previously had surgery, is virtually impossible to insure, and even if they were able to, it would almost certainly be for just a very small portion of it.
So yes, they’re screwed.
rustyjr
12/2/2010-12:19pm at 12:19 pm (UTC -4)
CUMBAYA !
njstuckintx
12/2/2010-1:46pm at 1:46 pm (UTC -4)
Huzzah!
metsfan4decades
12/2/2010-12:33pm at 12:33 pm (UTC -4)
On another note, Steve Phillips is crazy. Did anyone read his ‘plan’ for fixing the Mets this year? it’s the top post over on FWICG.com right now.
How in the world would he expect to get away with this:
‘Ask Ownership for the money needed to sign Cliff Lee, who he would make a ‘quiet, under the radar attempt to sign.’’
After Cerrone lists about a half dozen bullets from the video, he states:
‘He does not list ‘wake up from dream’ as part of his plan.’
kingman 26
12/2/2010-12:44pm at 12:44 pm (UTC -4)
I read that and really could not believe most of it.
Other than trading Ike for Fielder–and of course we would have to add a lot to that package–and supporting KRod, which we have no choice in doing, his ideas were embarrassing and ridiculous.
saltygary
12/2/2010-2:05pm at 2:05 pm (UTC -4)
The plan he laid out is the same approach he had in 2001-03 that ultimately got him fired. He traded for Alomar (I don’t fault him in anyway for this move) and signed or traded for guys like Burnitz, Mo Appier amongst others.
If you had free reign and unlimited resources, there are things that make sense. He is ripping off my suggestion here from last week about getting Fielder but it is going to take a lot more than Ike.Everyone here except for Ceetar would drop Ollie. Who would complain about attempting to acquire Lee? The plan just doesn’t make sense based on the message that the team is stressing about this year and it’s Steve Phillips and who want to agree with anything that ass has to say.
BTW he’s on Mad Dogs station co-chairing the morning show. Won’t even attempt to listen.
saltygary
12/2/2010-2:07pm at 2:07 pm (UTC -4)
Also and at peaking at the roster before making the above post I came across the list of Mets transactions in 2002. Pretty impressive amount of moves. Had no idea about this but the team actually purchased the contract of GMJ off the pirates but traded him away a month later. Take a look if you wish to procrastinate.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYM/2002-transactions.shtml
Ceetar
12/2/2010-2:08pm at 2:08 pm (UTC -4)
yes, go ahead, put words in my mouth.
saltygary
12/2/2010-2:12pm at 2:12 pm (UTC -4)
Oh you know you are giving shots of rum and sacrificing KFC to Jobu to help get Ollie back on track.
Ceetar
12/2/2010-2:18pm at 2:18 pm (UTC -4)
Ollie back on track is actually the best case scenario, and yet it seems people don’t want that.
kingman 26
12/2/2010-2:35pm at 2:35 pm (UTC -4)
No Ceetar, it is just that it seems absolutely impossible, and VERY unrealistic to even speculate about.
Were you to find the posts, I was one of the ONLY people who was actually happy about the Ollie re-signing. I thought he threw hard, was fearless, and was a valuable young lefty.
Because he could throw 93-94 with regularity.
A pitcher with his lack of control, lack of secondary pitches, lack of mental fortitude, lack of work ethic, lack of team-oriented selflessness, lack of willingness to sacrifice, etc, who CAN NOT throw that hard anymore simply is not going to get back on track.
Trust me, no one would be happier for Ollie to come out in the spring hitting 94 on the gun, then earn a spot in the rotation and win 16 games.
Imagine the deal he would then get for 2012!!
Ceetar
12/2/2010-2:47pm at 2:47 pm (UTC -4)
It’s also unrealistic to talk about trading certain of our players for nothing, or acquiring Adrien Gonzalez or Zack Grienke, but plenty of people are doing that aren’t they?
I was supportive of the deal, I thought it was a wee bit high, but seemed to be the market in that particular offseason. I never bought the rumors that we were bidding against ourselves. I didn’t like Lowe and we needed a pitcher.
I don’t know if it’s impossible. You never know with injuries. sometimes it takes a lot longer to fully recover from even things like tendinitis in the knee. (Yankees fans should be wary, Gardner has tendinitis in the wrists, and C.C. had knee surgery) The very suspect reports out of Mexico seem to suggest he’s building up arm strength and hitting 91-92 frequently (although 88 more often, but then again, they say he’s throwing a cutter too. the statistical breakdown in those mexican leagues aren’t exactly sabrmetric.) who knows what further work outs and muscle building yield? 92-93? It doesn’t seem as far fetched as it did last April.
I know I”m not counting on Perez to learn, or Warthen to teach him, how to mix pitches and set up batters with the kind of precision that a guy like Jamie Moyer does. Which is where all that lost potential is.
Mr North Jersey
12/2/2010-3:02pm at 3:02 pm (UTC -4)
Ceetar it’s just that your the optimistic Mets fan and thats great for you and all but you do realize that there is a contingent of fans that r happier to simply move on when it comes to Ollie right?
This doesn’t mean you are not making very good valid claims it just means sometimes people would rather just say enough and be done with it.
Ceetar
12/2/2010-3:10pm at 3:10 pm (UTC -4)
And I strongly advocate the Mets not appeal to that contingent, or we’ll never be competitive.
Mr North Jersey
12/2/2010-3:14pm at 3:14 pm (UTC -4)
Fair enough your opinion has been noted. I am sure there are others that don’t share your opinion but that is my point.
There is more than one way at looking at Ollie and you can make a case for both having validity.
saltygary
12/2/2010-3:37pm at 3:37 pm (UTC -4)
Sorry didn’t mean to start a pissing match…
For me I’m looking ahead and Ollie is in the rear view mirror. I was for the signing it was a bit high but that Lowe contract screwed the pooch for the Mets. Now it’s over. It didn’t work out, last season was an embarrassment to him leaf and to the organization and I don’t want him any where near this team.
If he is on the roster come opening day the fan-base’ bile, disdain and ignorance will be focused on him with pinpoint accuracy. I for one would rather the fans be focused on something else. Like Castillo LOL.
Ceetar
12/2/2010-3:40pm at 3:40 pm (UTC -4)
Actually, might be worth it for Perez to be on that team for that reason. Lightning Rod. Unless the Mets start off like 20-10 the fans are going to want to hate someone. might as well direct that hatred. Then he can contribute marginally and they can trade him for a backup IF or something and the fans will cheer and be all excited.
Then they can announce they’re gonna start that IF and everyone will flock to the park to see the anti-Ollie get an AB or something right? screwd business move?
wannybackstra
12/2/2010-3:45pm at 3:45 pm (UTC -4)
So we keep him around so he can be abused by the fans and then maybe he’ll pitch well enough to be traded for a backup infielder?
Seems like a great use of a roster spot.
Prismo
12/2/2010-3:49pm at 3:49 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, honestly Ceeter…to say you’re stretching would be a grand understatement.
Now all you can come up with is that we should keep Ollie in case the team stinks, so fans can make his life a living hell while we waste a roster spot? Come on man…
saltygary
12/2/2010-3:51pm at 3:51 pm (UTC -4)
Sigh… Fans don’t want to hate anybody but they will pour it on for need be. The Mets couldn’t get shit for Ollie. They literally couldn’t get Theo Epstein to shit in a box as a trade piece for for Ollie.Wake up dude. This guy is a cancer and he needs to be removed.
Mr North Jersey
12/2/2010-3:51pm at 3:51 pm (UTC -4)
You have to give it to Ceetar he can sure think outside the box when it comes to finding reasons to keep Ollie around.
Keeping Ollie to be the lightning Rod has to be one of his best doosies of a reason I have ever seen him write .
Ceetar
12/2/2010-3:51pm at 3:51 pm (UTC -4)
That was tongue in cheek.
The Mets should make decisions based on who can contribute, not on what the fans want or don’t want.
Ceetar
12/2/2010-3:54pm at 3:54 pm (UTC -4)
Oh, the fans definitely want to hate. Sad but true.
Prismo
12/2/2010-3:55pm at 3:55 pm (UTC -4)
But he CAN’T contribute!! He’s barely contributed his entire career!! He has a total of 5.8 WAR with over 1,100 innings pitched!!! Lincecum has 24.0 WAR in only 800 innings pitched! Heck, even John Maine has 4.5 in about HALF the innings pitched of Olllie!
He is a BUM and a WART who needs to be removed at all costs!!!!
saltygary
12/2/2010-3:57pm at 3:57 pm (UTC -4)
“The Mets should make decisions based on who can contribute, not on what the fans want or don’t want.”
And if that was the case he would of been gone last season.
wannybackstra
12/2/2010-3:25pm at 3:25 pm (UTC -4)
The problem is that you’ve selected 2 out of his 8 seasons and decided that those two successful season were his appropriate track.
The rest of the evidence indicates that he is currently on track. And that he stinks.
Prismo
12/2/2010-3:48pm at 3:48 pm (UTC -4)
+1
kistics
12/2/2010-3:19pm at 3:19 pm (UTC -4)
Sounds like Takahashi is going to be signing with the Halos.
Mr North Jersey
12/2/2010-3:57pm at 3:57 pm (UTC -4)
lol ceetar i am glad you said that was tongue in cheek.