As expected the Mets non-tendered John Maine last night. They also non-tendered Sean Green (as local favorite 4D rejoices) and Chris Carter (as author Kingman rejoices). To me there are no real surprises there. I did not see a role for any of them with the Mets next year, especially at the MLB level.
As for the ones coming back, these were no brainers. Angel Pagan (the starting CF/RF), RA Dickey (the #2 non-flame thrower), and Mike Pelfrey (the de facto #1) all were tendered contracts as expected.
So who is new? According to Tracy Ringolsby of Fox Sports “The New York Mets have emerged as a strong contender for Francis, who they have offered a big-league contract and a legit shot at a spot in the rotation.” Thanks to Metsblog for the link.
What we don’t know is if Francis is combined with Chris Young as an either-or situation or if the Mets are actively pursuing 2 SP to add to the rotation. Both Young and Francis have had recent injury issues and while neither could be counted on for 200 innings they are both very decent options to fill out a rotation that hopes to get it’s Ace back in June. With Francis only receiving a minor league deal from the Rockies, I can’t imagine the cost being high if the Mets offer him an MLB deal. If they can get Francis and Young for a total of 5M plus incentives I will consider that a good move by the new regime.
As I listen to the MLB network on my way too and from work each day, they continue to play a sound bite from Sandy Alderson where he comments that it’s no secret the Mets need to add depth to their rotation. Adding these two would certainly go a long way towards that goal. I have thought the logical path he would choose would be adding one guy that is a no doubt lock for the rotation if signed (Chris Young?), adding a guy to compete with Dillon Gee on a bargain type deal (Jeff Francis?) and bringing a Dickey type into AAA with a slight chance of making the roster either in place of Gee/Francis type or as the long reliever.
This would bring the starting pitching depth up to
Pelfrey, Dickey, Niese, Young, Francis, Gee, PTBNL, Misch, Mejia
I can deal with that as we wait for the return of Johan.
221 comments
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-7:51am at 7:51 am (UTC -4)
As Oleo mentioned on the other thread, “Pelfrey, Dickey, Niese, Young, Francis is a rotation (on paper) I can live with given the situation our team is in.” I agree.
TRS86
12/3/2010-8:24am at 8:24 am (UTC -4)
Obviously I agree.
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-9:09am at 9:09 am (UTC -4)
Obviously.
Misch I would see on the big club as the long man. I really hope Gee & Mejia roll in AAA for 1/2 a year, at least.
kistics
12/3/2010-8:26am at 8:26 am (UTC -4)
PTBNL?
TRS86
12/3/2010-8:27am at 8:27 am (UTC -4)
LOL, Player To Be Named Later. Sorry.
kistics
12/3/2010-8:47am at 8:47 am (UTC -4)
Gotcha.
I like it. I like where they are going with the low risk/high rewards types of guys. But i also think they need to bring in one guy that can give you 200+ innings.
As for relief pitchers, there are lots of options out there. Someone like Chris Ray, George Sherrill could be good setup/7th inning guys. I think the Mets need to sit and wait to see who becomes desperate and get them for cheap.
TRS86
12/3/2010-8:50am at 8:50 am (UTC -4)
The guy that can give you 200 innings may not be available to the Mets as much as I agree with you. Looking at the FA crop there are not many of those out there and they appear to be getting more than the Mets would want to pay.
kistics
12/3/2010-9:15am at 9:15 am (UTC -4)
I really wonder if Wandy is available. Or someone like Paul Maholm from the Pirates.
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-9:22am at 9:22 am (UTC -4)
Wandy from the Astros? They are looking to lock him up for 3+ years. He’s not available.
kistics
12/3/2010-9:30am at 9:30 am (UTC -4)
Yeah I saw that after I posted my comment here.
Ceetar
12/3/2010-8:55am at 8:55 am (UTC -4)
That’s a luxury. But..
if one of these guys can give you 100 innings, we may have Santana back. Gee or Mejia maybe be lighting up AAA. Someone else may become available.
kingman 26
12/3/2010-8:30am at 8:30 am (UTC -4)
LOL!
Well, I was warming up to him by the end of the year as you may recall….as it became apparent that he was one of the few 2010 Mets who DID come prepared and focused and actually cared.
Too bad he just isn’t very good at playing; I would, however, think he might make a fine coach or manager someday.
TRS86
12/3/2010-8:38am at 8:38 am (UTC -4)
He may be able to make an AL bench where the likelihood of him having to play the field diminishes substantially.
Ceetar
12/3/2010-9:05am at 9:05 am (UTC -4)
He has way too much of a following, reading some comments about him being nontendered.
He always had a good quote for the reporters to mix in the intensity angle. I’m sure he’ll be missed by them as well. Me, not so much.
kingman 26
12/3/2010-9:36am at 9:36 am (UTC -4)
Great guy, hard worker, bad player.
rustyjr
12/3/2010-9:16am at 9:16 am (UTC -4)
Admit it you were jealous of skyking jr
kingman 26
12/3/2010-9:36am at 9:36 am (UTC -4)
Skyking Jr?
How dare you!?
rustyjr
12/3/2010-9:02am at 9:02 am (UTC -4)
Ok so I was wrong about Green
metsfan4decades
12/3/2010-9:11am at 9:11 am (UTC -4)
All good, IMO.
You all know how I felt about Green. Stated in a previous post I can only hope that it means Sandy and Co. have a plan to restock the BP and feel they can accomplish this with better arms than Green. Yippie!
I know many like Carter. I have nothing against him but I’m sorry, the boy just cannot throw. He belongs on an AL team as a bat off the bench.
Maine – no brainer.
I don’t know much about Francis right now – have to go look up stats. From what I’m reading though, not a bad move. We need 2/5s of a rotation AND some depth. The more arms they can stock up on, especially on a minor league contract, the better.
I’d really like to see them get the deal done with Young.
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-9:36am at 9:36 am (UTC -4)
I hate the twitter universe. Met’s offered a contract to Francis. Now they haven’t. Just throwing stuff at the wall in hopes that 1% of what is thrown sticks is not reporting. It’s talking out one’s arse. uff da.
CaseStreet
12/3/2010-9:37am at 9:37 am (UTC -4)
Agree, though I wonder if that PTBNL could be Maine on a minor league deal.
Gotta figure he might want to stay with the Mets considering there’s a possibility he could be called up since the rotation isn’t solid. He might also want to stick around with Warthen and the rest of the staff who have been helping him recover.
No risk on the Mets since it would be minor league deal, plus you know when he’s able to pitch he can be a pretty good starter.
I guess I see Maine as another Young, Francis type, but at least with him we know what we’re getting (a hard luck guy who ain’t no Ollie P,)
CaseStreet
12/3/2010-9:42am at 9:42 am (UTC -4)
According to Adam Rubin you have to make 60% of what you made the previous year, so since Maine made $3.3M in 2010, he’d have to make close to $2M in 2011.
That’s too much for a minor league deal, so forget about it.
My bad.
kistics
12/3/2010-9:42am at 9:42 am (UTC -4)
What do you think about Paul Maholm from the Pirates as the PTBNL? He is in his 3rd year of Arb and will probably make around $5M or so. Giving up someone like Evans or Tejada?
Here are his avg stats past 3 seasons
4.39ERA, 31GS, 195 IP, 1.42 WHIP, 2-1 K/BB, 54% QS rate
Batting Against – .285/.343/.426 Babip .318
oleosmirf
12/3/2010-11:55am at 11:55 am (UTC -4)
I certainly would take Maholm but I dont think we have the financial flexibility to spend 5 mil guaranteed on 1 player.
Mr North Jersey
12/3/2010-9:45am at 9:45 am (UTC -4)
Alderson is doing some Winter cleaning isn’t he?
Henry Blanco granted Free Agency.
Elmer Dessens granted Free Agency.
Kelvim Escobar granted Free Agency.
Pedro Feliciano granted Free Agency.
Fernando Tatis granted Free Agency.
Released Hisanori Takahashi.
Yhency Brazoban granted Free Agency.
Brian Bruney granted Free Agency.
Chad Cordero granted Free Agency.
Jack Egbert granted Free Agency.
Carlos Muniz granted Free Agency.
Arturo Lopez granted Free Agency.
Adam Pettyjohn granted Free Agency.
Raul Valdes granted Free Agency.
Michael Barrett granted Free Agency.
J.R. House granted Free Agency.
Luke Montz granted Free Agency.
Russ Adams granted Free Agency.
Alex Cintron granted Free Agency.
Mike Cervenak granted Free Agency.
Jorge Padilla granted Free Agency.
Jesus Feliciano granted Free Agency.
Andy Green granted Free Agency.
Omir Santos granted Free Agency.
Mike Hessman granted Free Agency.
Sean Green granted Free Agency.
John Maine granted Free Agency.
Chris Carter granted Free Agency.
********************************************
Picked Up Jose Reyes option.
Signed Mike O’Connor as a free agent.
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-9:49am at 9:49 am (UTC -4)
Basically that says, uh, Omar, what the heck were you thinking with this? I’m taking out the trash!
Mr North Jersey
12/3/2010-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
Sure looks like it.
oleosmirf
12/3/2010-11:58am at 11:58 am (UTC -4)
well considering the Mets (finally) have prospects in AAA there is no need for AAAA players like Carter, Hessman, Feliciano, Padilla, Adams etc. guys like Lutz, Satin, Kirk and Duda will be replacing them…
Ceetar
12/3/2010-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
I’m sure the list looks like taht for every team every year though.
Mr North Jersey
12/3/2010-9:58am at 9:58 am (UTC -4)
Agreed, but why let that fact get in the way of this?
Mr North Jersey
12/3/2010-10:01am at 10:01 am (UTC -4)
I said this over on MMO regarding these names so I will add it here also.
Is there anyone here that can’t be replaced for the 2012 season?
Remind me a year from today if this will still be a big deal. I think it most likely will not.
Ceetar
12/3/2010-10:06am at 10:06 am (UTC -4)
some of those guys are just going to Buffalo I think..just removed from teh 40 man right?
No ones irreplacable, but you never know who’s going to ahve a breakout year. maybe it’s one of those guys, and the guy you peg as the ‘replacement’ doesn’t. *shrug* But yeah, most of those guys are replaceable crapshoot whoever you want to fill the role guys.
Mr North Jersey
12/3/2010-10:13am at 10:13 am (UTC -4)
Except Carter right? He is gonna be great wherever he lands.
Kingy agrees with me on this. Right Kingy? LoL
kingman 26
12/3/2010-10:31am at 10:31 am (UTC -4)
Carter is clearly someone who hustles, but he just does not have the ability to do anything well at the MLB level. He is a pinch hitter, and that’s it.
Hey, the above list made me smile and made me very happy.
ALL of it.
My mantra has been to clean house; clean almost everything the hell out of here. This team choked in 2007 and 2008 and the last two years was a disaster of lazy, injury-prone, overpaid players complemented by outright mediocrity like most of the above list.
Don’t stop Sandy.
Mr North Jersey
12/3/2010-10:38am at 10:38 am (UTC -4)
Hey if he must be a pinch hitter that’s OK because as a famous person once said,
“Be a bush if you can’t be a tree. If you can’t be a highway, just be a trail. If you can’t be a sun, be a star. For it isn’t by size that you win or fail. Be the best of whatever you are.”
-M.L.K.
kingman 26
12/3/2010-11:26am at 11:26 am (UTC -4)
Among my top favorite Americans of the twentieth century.
Nice.
tkfj2
12/3/2010-9:47am at 9:47 am (UTC -4)
Things I have learned,
1) I’m glad Ceetar is not the GM of the Mets
2) Kingman hates Jose Reyes
3) The GM and FO make a ton more sense than the last regime. Non-tendering players who won’t help this team win, what a novel idea.
Ceetar
12/3/2010-9:49am at 9:49 am (UTC -4)
yeah, like Omar never did this. I do grow tired of the “everything Omar did was wrong” angle. and Alderson cleaning house is fine, as long as he actually gets guys here and helps out. I have yet tosee him as a savior. And so far his only message has been “Lets spend less!”
Adam Rubin really loved Chris Carter didn’t he?
tkfj2
12/3/2010-9:52am at 9:52 am (UTC -4)
The only thing Omar will be remembered for is being a loser, who could not build a contending team. What else is there to say? Proof is in the pudding.
Sans ’06, Omar is a GM who builds losing teams.
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
The Carter trade annoys me beyond all belief. The Sox basically bought two high picks for 3 mill or something like that.
Ceetar
12/3/2010-9:58am at 9:58 am (UTC -4)
It got worse and worse. I wonder if the Mets were figuring at the time that if they kept Wagner he probably would’ve have had the same market value as going to a contendor, and maybe would’ve stuck around? Or they just sorely misevaluated Carter and the other guy. (I have no problem with the idea in general, why not ‘draft’ two guys with a little more data behind them, and are a little closer..but the actual choices were suspect)
kistics
12/3/2010-10:00am at 10:00 am (UTC -4)
Yes in hindsight the Mets screwed up. But wasn’t Wagner pretty much set to retire after the ’09 season?
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-10:02am at 10:02 am (UTC -4)
I always figured he wanted to reach that save milestone. Was it 400 saves and he had like 392 or something like that?
kistics
12/3/2010-10:07am at 10:07 am (UTC -4)
Did the RedSox offer him arbitration?
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-10:13am at 10:13 am (UTC -4)
yes i think they did.
Ceetar
12/3/2010-10:08am at 10:08 am (UTC -4)
Getting into the spotlight with Boston and proving he could do it again probably helped. I think once he started pitching again his plans started to change, but it’s still on the Mets for not forseeingthat. Then again, if he pitched 8 innings for the going nowhere Mets, would Atlanta still have picked him up? Would he still ahve declined arbitration?
kistics
12/3/2010-10:12am at 10:12 am (UTC -4)
Excellent point. As bad of a trade it seems in hindsight, I don’t think him being traded was a big issue back then.
And Wagner only signed with the Bravos because of Bobby Cox. He was all set to retire from what I’ve heard. So I don’t think you can fault the Mets for it.
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-10:14am at 10:14 am (UTC -4)
I think they would have. Wags wasn’t going to accept arb. He wanted to close. Get saves to get him over a certain number for his career (believe that was 400 saves and he was 8 away or something like that).
tkfj2
12/3/2010-10:02am at 10:02 am (UTC -4)
Let Wagner leave as a Type A, and we get draft picks.
Nope lets trade him for a career AAAA.(while I liked the Animal, this is true)
“Oh, but draft picks are meaningless in today’s MLB, the draft is not important for a big market franchise like the Mets”
My asz.
oleosmirf
12/3/2010-12:02pm at 12:02 pm (UTC -4)
sometimes you need to take a step back in order to go forward. Sandy realizes the chances of making the playoffs with a top 3 of Pelf, Dickey, Niese is slim to none so he wont trade prospects for guys just to give a facade of hope.
That is what Omar did. He signed a big name player to appease the fan base and create false hope while the major holes were never addressed…
Im perfectly willing to lose a few more games in 2011 if that means we gain more wins in 2012 and beyond…
kingman 26
12/3/2010-10:27am at 10:27 am (UTC -4)
No, I don’t hate Jose Reyes, and it is getting pretty annoying to constantly read people write that simply because I choose to objectively comment on what I clearly see.
And what Sandy Alderson obviously also clearly sees.
Jose was very good from 2005–2008, and has been hurt and crappy the last two years.
Signing him to a huge extension before he proves he can return to 2006–2008 production would be ludicrous.
Mr North Jersey
12/3/2010-10:29am at 10:29 am (UTC -4)
So when u make fun of Reyes dancing it’s because you like him?
Mr North Jersey
12/3/2010-10:30am at 10:30 am (UTC -4)
I kid I kid
kingman 26
12/3/2010-10:33am at 10:33 am (UTC -4)
No, I wish he would act like serious grown-up players do.
Tell me when you see Pujols, Jeter, Wright, Howard, or guys like that dance.
Tell me how smart it is to anger the Marlins when they frigin own us with a fraction of the payroll.
I don’t care if I am the only one here who feels this way—-it’s childish, asinine behavior, and I guarantee you, players like Wright and Delgado and others probably think he is a frigin immature idiot.
TRS86
12/3/2010-10:38am at 10:38 am (UTC -4)
Let me ask you this then. Why did Johan take it upon himself to develop an individual “dancing” handshake with all the players on the team?
Prismo
12/3/2010-10:40am at 10:40 am (UTC -4)
I’m so sick of hearing this entire argument in general. Both sides.
kingman 26
12/3/2010-10:44am at 10:44 am (UTC -4)
SO AM I.
Almost as sick as I am of people acting as if Jose Reyes is some kind of superstar, which is ridiculous.
TRS86
12/3/2010-10:53am at 10:53 am (UTC -4)
Actually if he recovers from his issues and produces like he did prior to, then he indeed is a superstar.
kingman 26
12/3/2010-11:27am at 11:27 am (UTC -4)
Yes, as all superstars save their worst for the stretch run every year.
oleosmirf
12/3/2010-12:04pm at 12:04 pm (UTC -4)
same could be said about A-Rod until 2009.
metsfan4decades
12/3/2010-10:50am at 10:50 am (UTC -4)
Maybe not Pujols, Jeter, Wright or Howard but certainly Victorino, Werth, Rollins, Chamberlain…just to name a few fist pumping, finger pointing, staring into opposing dugouts and various other actions that could only be described as showboating or deliberate calling out of the other team – type players.
TRS86
12/3/2010-11:01am at 11:01 am (UTC -4)
Actually, I can’t think of many MLB championship teams that don’t have a guy with a little flair that pisses off other teams.
kingman 26
12/3/2010-11:30am at 11:30 am (UTC -4)
Ummmm, the Jose Reyes Mets have ONE postseason series win—four years ago, followed by a loss to a team with significantly less talent.
This defends MY side of the debate.
kingman 26
12/3/2010-11:29am at 11:29 am (UTC -4)
Hmmm, so you are putting Reyes into a category with Victorino and Joba?
Hmmm, and which side are you defending in this debate?
As for Rollins, when Reyes has ONE clutch hit of the variety Rollins has many, then we can compare them in that regard.
Mr North Jersey
12/3/2010-10:32am at 10:32 am (UTC -4)
It is just that when you constantly go out of your way to point out a perceived flaw in his game well I don’t know why you would find it annoying that people feel you don’t like him?
kingman 26
12/3/2010-10:35am at 10:35 am (UTC -4)
Not A perceived flaw, a very long list of very real flaws.
Attitude, focus, conditioning, toughness, approach at the plate, not taking enough pitches, not being a better bunter, collapsing down the stretch, and making a frigin spectacle of himself by being on a team known for choking and losing and still doing dances for 3rd inning HRs.
The more I get grief for this, the more I think about the very end of 2007—Jose did nothing in September, he pissed off the Marlins so they focused harder and beat our asses, and still people deny this stuff.
Mystifying.
TRS86
12/3/2010-10:39am at 10:39 am (UTC -4)
Do you honestly think that the Marlins tried harder because of Reyes? If so then that’s incredibly sad for the Marlins and all of their players should have been cut for lack of drive and focus.
kingman 26
12/3/2010-10:43am at 10:43 am (UTC -4)
Yes I definitely do. Hanley Ramirez does not try extra hard against the Mets? How many times has he and other members of the Marlins mentioned this precisely?
Does that also speak to the Marlins’ overall approach? Absolutely. But why give them added incentive to beat us. Why? Answer me that?
How fired up were they that day? When Olivo charged Reyes and Reyes cowered behind Alomar Sr and let him take the punch?
I am sick of this argument too, but what is the problem with admitting that Jose is a little bit weak and immature? Does that somehow lessen YOU as a person?
TRS86
12/3/2010-10:55am at 10:55 am (UTC -4)
I can’t speak to if or why Hanley plays “harder” against certain teams. Only that if that is in case true then he also is a bit weak and immature.
As for Reyes, I have never denied that he is immature. So where does that place me?
kingman 26
12/3/2010-10:58am at 10:58 am (UTC -4)
Well, first, sure Hanley is immature. Never doubted that.
As for point two, I guess, as usual, it puts us closer to agreement than we often realize!
metsfan4decades
12/3/2010-10:52am at 10:52 am (UTC -4)
A point I’ve often made myself.
kingman 26
12/3/2010-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, but if it is true, why not stop doing it and start beating the Marlins?!?!
Do we want to win or watch Jose dance?
TRS86
12/3/2010-11:00am at 11:00 am (UTC -4)
Why can’t you have both? Not like he was not producing from 2005-2008 while dancing. Yes he stops producing in September but not sure that has anything to do with dancing.
Mr North Jersey
12/3/2010-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
All that and yet you say that it’s not that you don’t like him?
Mr North Jersey
12/3/2010-10:43am at 10:43 am (UTC -4)
Hey I’m not trying to change your mind or suggest your wrong. I just am reacting to the idea you was annoyed at the thought that people say you don’t like Reyes athat’s all.
kingman 26
12/3/2010-10:46am at 10:46 am (UTC -4)
I hear you Mr N and you are ALWAYS fair-minded.
I guess my last word for today is that I am disappointed in Jose.
Disappointed in his attitude, work habits, maturity, and how he played in 2010.
Mr North Jersey
12/3/2010-10:48am at 10:48 am (UTC -4)
Fair Enough.
Free Carter!!!
Oh wait, He already is.
kingman 26
12/3/2010-10:50am at 10:50 am (UTC -4)
LOL!
And not a moment too soon….
Prismo
12/3/2010-10:50am at 10:50 am (UTC -4)
From what I’ve seen, there’s actually a large portion of professional athletes who are less mature than the average person their age. This is probably due to having their egos stroked their entire lives and becoming rich at a young age.
For Jose, add this into being “”"”coached”"”" by someone who doesn’t run a disciplined team, and it’s a recipe for relative disaster.
I hope you can agree that Collins and a new hitting coach may (key word: may) be able to focus Jose better.
Prismo
12/3/2010-10:54am at 10:54 am (UTC -4)
For example: at least one wide receiver on every team in the NFL. How many times do you see a guy score a touchdown in the 4th quarter when his team is down 21 points…and yet he STILL celebrates in the end-zone?
kingman 26
12/3/2010-10:54am at 10:54 am (UTC -4)
I agree with every word of that Prismo.
And the more I watch Alderson’s moves the more I like him, and the more I listen to what Collins says, the more I am absolutely loving him.
If it is true that Jose was at his very best when he had people like Valentin and Delgado around, so be it; let us hope that the clearly tougher Collins will supply the motivation and leadership Jerry failed to provide, and that Jose needs to return to his better self.
Surely you and Mr N are able to see that I want Jose to succeed and to do it in orange and blue…..
TRS86
12/3/2010-10:56am at 10:56 am (UTC -4)
Not sure we can call in his work habits unless you are solely focused on his uh… lack of focus in the games. He is known to work very hard in the off-season and put countless baseball hours in.
kingman 26
12/3/2010-10:56am at 10:56 am (UTC -4)
Cannot stand that stuff Prismo; excellent example. It is the definition of being a LOSING player.
I think Owens and OchoMoron in Cincy–with their TV show and attitudes while on a terrible losing team–is exhibit A of the type of athlete I detest.
I love team sports; and team-oriented players.
kistics
12/3/2010-11:02am at 11:02 am (UTC -4)
To give him credit, Jose has always said the right thing to the media. Even with all the injuries, batting him 3rd, etc.
kistics
12/3/2010-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
What if you sign him to a team friendly extension? Something like 4/40 including next season?
I say this because I believe when Reyes is healthy, he can still get back to ’06-’08 form. And I believe he’s healthy now. I also think his lack of production had affected by the approach that Omar/Jerry took with him. There were lots of times where I was questioning why Reyes wasn’t running. And I don’t believe it was because of his health, but the game plan prohibited him from running.
So having said that, approx $10M per season for 27 year old SS, is not a bad deal IMO.
kingman 26
12/3/2010-10:52am at 10:52 am (UTC -4)
4/40 would be great; I just sincerely think, especially considering I believe his 2011 salary is $11 million, that he will ask for and receive much, much more than that.
I would guess at the very least 4/60. Probably 5 years.
kistics
12/3/2010-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
4/40 sold! Where is the dotted line?
I will send a copy over to Jose. Can you get your attorney to notarize the contract before sending it out?
kingman 26
12/3/2010-11:00am at 11:00 am (UTC -4)
LOL!
DONE!
We have a meeting scheduled to finalize it with Jose at about 2 AM tonight in a club in Queens….
kistics
12/3/2010-11:09am at 11:09 am (UTC -4)
Gotta have my GTL done today….
TRS86
12/3/2010-10:58am at 10:58 am (UTC -4)
A lot depends on this year, which is why I think it is wise for the Mets to wait until at least mid-season to even think about an extension unless it is truly incredibly team friendly.
oleosmirf
12/3/2010-12:09pm at 12:09 pm (UTC -4)
exactly although many fans believe that b.c of Sandy’s history he wont re-sign Reyes if he hits the open market. personally I think Sandy has made it very clear that he will spend money especially on retaining his homegrown players…
kistics
12/3/2010-12:19pm at 12:19 pm (UTC -4)
I think it can backfire on the Mets (though it’s good for us fans) if you wait till end of this season. Only because there’s a good chance that his value would go up if he stays healthy. And 4/40 would be a good bargain IMO.
But then from Jose’s perspective, there’s no hurry in signing an extension now. So there might be no point in trying.
oleosmirf
12/3/2010-12:40pm at 12:40 pm (UTC -4)
thats the thing you missing though. his value really cant go up that much higher as Troy Tulowitzki just signed an extension for 15.7 mil a year. lets say Reyes goes back to his 06-08 days, he’s still not making any more than 16 mil a year.
i’d rather overpay a star player then overpay a mediocre player…
stickguy
12/3/2010-1:22pm at 1:22 pm (UTC -4)
a rebound year and his value will be more than 4/40. But Kistics, Jose is taking a risk playing out the year. If he replicates 2010 (below standards offense, some nagging injuries), he may not entice that big of a deal. and of course, if he suffers catastrohic failue (say, blows out a knee), then he will be getting jack diddle.
my guess, if he was on the open market today, is he would get 4/52, with maybe a 5th year option.
I also am on record as saying, and still stand behind, that if they don’t extend him and let him play the season as a lame duck, he is gone after 2011. Some team will overpay him (if he has a good year), and if he sucks, then they won’t want him anyway!
so just hope that all the off season wheeling/dealing brings in a SS prospect that is better than Tejada.
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-1:26pm at 1:26 pm (UTC -4)
abso-tutely!
kistics
12/3/2010-10:18am at 10:18 am (UTC -4)
I feel bad for Carter. Supposedly his wedding is this week and he’s out of job. Harsh world….
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-10:19am at 10:19 am (UTC -4)
He’ll catch on, no worries.
You can’t contain the ANIMAL!!!
Ceetar
12/3/2010-10:20am at 10:20 am (UTC -4)
That’s the game, sadly enough. Adam Rubin seems to be hinting that the Mets are cheap and broke for not tendering him a contract though.
kistics
12/3/2010-10:22am at 10:22 am (UTC -4)
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to do what the Mets did. But the timing just really sucked.
Ceetar
12/3/2010-10:26am at 10:26 am (UTC -4)
To be fair, this has been the nontender deadline for a long time, and Carter knew that when they planned the wedding. That’s what happens to fringe players in the offseason.
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-10:32am at 10:32 am (UTC -4)
Who chooses their wedding date 2 days after the cut date? Poor planning for a Brain Surgeon, no?
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-10:22am at 10:22 am (UTC -4)
Not tending who a contract? Rubin?
metsfan4decades
12/3/2010-10:55am at 10:55 am (UTC -4)
Carter’s arm is terrible. We can’t afford to keep a bat on the bench with ‘some pop’ when he can’t throw at all. Don’t know what Rubin is thinking.
Good luck to him as he appears to be a dedicated, focused player.
If the Rangers could sign Franceour, they’ll be an AL team interested in Carter.
oleosmirf
12/3/2010-12:13pm at 12:13 pm (UTC -4)
well i understand his fielding sucks but I still never understand why Carter ever needs to play the field. with a bench of Catcher, Evans, Turner, 4th OF and Carter, you wont ever use Carter in the field more than 3-4 times a month and certainly not in the 9th inning with the game on the line.
Carter is strictly a LH pinch hitter and if you have other guys who can play the OF on the bench, then why is his fielding a concern???
kistics
12/3/2010-10:23am at 10:23 am (UTC -4)
But then doesn’t he have like a brain surgeon degree from Stanford?
metsfan4decades
12/3/2010-11:10am at 11:10 am (UTC -4)
Oh, boy……already reading certain articles and blogger comments are critisizing Sandy and the FO. Jeeze, how can anyone evaluate the new regime yet?
Some of the biggest complaints are the FA class of 2012 and likely further will be slim as many teams have the mindset of locking up young players and/or trading ones they won’t be able to afford – therefore, the Mets should be going after those available right now.
Say, what???? Lee? Crawford?
I don’t know about you all, but I’m willing to be patient through 2011 and see what the FO does from there. I’m sure Sandy will get us a rotation and some depth. Might not be enough to compete but we might get lucky.
kistics
12/3/2010-11:17am at 11:17 am (UTC -4)
Same here. But I wouldn’t count on 2012 offseason to be like the Yankees ’09 offseason where they signed CC, Tex and AJ. I only see the Mets having room to sign one big name FA and couple small signings.
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-11:24am at 11:24 am (UTC -4)
The FA Class is underwhelming that I’ve seen so far for 2012.
Ceetar
12/3/2010-11:31am at 11:31 am (UTC -4)
I remember last offseason people were touting this one for pitchers. ha. Things change.
That’s why if you really read into Alderson’s statements, his plan has never been “wait for free agents in 2012″ it’s “make the team good, and if a free agent in the future helps that, so be it”
Mr North Jersey
12/3/2010-11:36am at 11:36 am (UTC -4)
I agree but Alderson himself has said that one reason he won’t be active this off season is because he just does not have financial flexibility to do so.
Had it not been for that I wonder what his tactic would be towards this years crop of free agents?
Ceetar
12/3/2010-11:39am at 11:39 am (UTC -4)
active on the top end anyway.
It comes off less as “can’t” and more as “won’t” that he wants to leave that cushion so that they can pull someone in that they need to. He’s basically selling a wholesale payroll cut and is being lauded for it.
Mr North Jersey
12/3/2010-11:49am at 11:49 am (UTC -4)
OK well can’t or won’t what we know is that the Mets payroll had an affect on his plans this year.
How much is what is up to interpretation.
Ceetar
12/3/2010-11:56am at 11:56 am (UTC -4)
Also, why would any GM release the exact number he can or will spend? Isn’t that just going to hurt negotiations?
Mr North Jersey
12/3/2010-12:01pm at 12:01 pm (UTC -4)
“Also, why would any GM release the exact number he can or will spend? Isn’t that just going to hurt negotiations?”
I agree. I don’t see the relevance with the fact that Alderson has said they won’t be as active this year in free agency for one reason that they just don’t have that much financial flexibility but yes I agree.
Ceetar
12/3/2010-12:03pm at 12:03 pm (UTC -4)
Well, the difference is he’s said they won’t be active on the top end ,but people differ on them spending nothing versus actually signing the 3-4 pitchers they want.
Mr North Jersey
12/3/2010-12:22pm at 12:22 pm (UTC -4)
OK Top, middle, bottom not disputing any of that.
Simply Alderson said he won’t be as active this off season because he just does not have financial flexibility to do so.
Ceetar
12/3/2010-11:22am at 11:22 am (UTC -4)
I’m not willing to be patient.
But I’m not advocating Lee or Crawford. I’m just not thinking we should just be punting this season either. A couple of shrewd acquisitions or trades puts us right in the thick of things.
I’m not going to evaluate the new regime yet, but I’m certainly not giving them a pass for this year or giving them a thumbs up for the way things are right now. I’m not going to assume everthing is great that they do, I’ll wait to evaluate on that end as well. Neutral. Woo me.
oleosmirf
12/3/2010-11:49am at 11:49 am (UTC -4)
i wouldnt say they are punting but they are doing their best to put the best possible team without hurting the future.
Ceetar
12/3/2010-11:50am at 11:50 am (UTC -4)
Pretty much every team’s philosophy every year.
oleosmirf
12/3/2010-12:05pm at 12:05 pm (UTC -4)
Ceetar
since you seem to be the only one who really thinks we have a playoff team what would you do if you were GM this offseason?
Ceetar
12/3/2010-12:20pm at 12:20 pm (UTC -4)
I think we _could_ have a playoff team. I think we’re right around 82-83 right now, now that we have a manager for 2011.
I’m okay with our offense, I think a lot of it sucked last year, but I suspect a new hitting coach and manager and more guys on target to start the season not hurt helps. A lot hinges on Bay’s return to some sort of form ,and Beltran not breaking down. The first I think is likely and the second I have no idea how to judge. I think we do get the games out of him, but who knows really. So if our offense is going to score a lot of runs like it should, it’s really pitching right?
Well our pitching was good last year. Let’s say Dickey regresses a little, but Niese progresses about the same amount, and Pelfrey is slightly better (just hoping when he slumps he’s not as disasterous basicaly)
So really, my acquisions would be 1 real solid I know i’m going to get 200 innings out of type of keep you in the game pitcher. Millwoodish? I don’t know if I like Millwood specifically, i liked Garland. something like that.
and then a bunch of guys like Young who are healthy but not necessary anything given. Guys that we can interchange, and maybe Gee or Mejia finds their way up midseason. or someone else. or Santana. (Or even Perez, who I would 99.9% send to the minors with a specific goal. Get his K/BB at a certain number and I’ll bring him up. )
The bullpen is always a crap shoot. I would’ve kept Feliciano or Takahashi, but there are always guys to find, and I would make sure not to fall in llove with any of them and pick and choose between minors guys doing well, or trades, or whatever. Find guys that stick.
The mets should be somewehre competitive in July. Assess Santanaa, assess the offense. Maybe we need a trade for another quality arm, or a bullpen guy, or maybe a left handed backup OF because Beltran is doing best with more days off, or Pagan doesn’t have a good year. or we need a temp piece because someone gets hurt. Don’t overpay ot give up good pieces to ‘go for it’, but there are always pieces out there for trade. a different bench configuration or another reliever or two can sometimes work wonders. While Omar did occasionally mix up the bench midseason, I never felt like he did it enough, or with the bullpen. Those were the places I felt tinkering in ’07 and ’08 would’ve gotten us in.
oleosmirf
12/3/2010-12:30pm at 12:30 pm (UTC -4)
well isnt that exactly what Sandy is doing??? he’s trying to go after the best SP he possibly can without giving a multi-year deal or giving up prospects/pics???
metsfan4decades
12/3/2010-1:46pm at 1:46 pm (UTC -4)
That’s where I was going with my comments and I think that’s exactly what Sandy is trying to do.
stickguy
12/3/2010-12:30pm at 12:30 pm (UTC -4)
Need to stop lumping Gee and Mejia together. Gee is probably about as ready as he will ever be, so if they have the opening and he wins the #5 job, keep him up. Mejia is not even close to being a ML ready SP, and has hardly put up innings yet. No way he should even sniff the bigs in 2011 (unless it is a sept call up), and probably not 2012 either. Let him build his selection up, and develop his stamina.
and they don’t really need 1 guy to give 200 crappy innings. I am fine with a couple of guys splitting the load!
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-12:36pm at 12:36 pm (UTC -4)
While I don’t want it, I could see Gee being the number 5 guy. You are correct in that he’s about as ready as he’s gonna get.
Ceetar
12/3/2010-1:42pm at 1:42 pm (UTC -4)
well, I see Gee and Mejia as maybe the two closest? a lot will change in 3-6 months though. They’re just the two names on the forefront.
It’s hard to find guys splitting the load though. You’re basically hoping to find lightning in a bottle, ride it for a month or two, and the nditch him for someone else. Playing the hot hand so to speak, and while I’m all good with some of this, I think a slightly more steady guy could be useful.
stickguy
12/3/2010-1:54pm at 1:54 pm (UTC -4)
it becomes a combination of a guy ready to start the year, a prospect getting a little more seasoning at AAa waiting his turn, and maybe an injury rehab guy that was ready coming out of ST.
It can also be done with a 6th SP starting as a long man in the pen.
and don’t forget, hopefully Johan comes back at some point.
stickguy
12/3/2010-12:27pm at 12:27 pm (UTC -4)
He’s not the only one. I expect the team to be capable of ~90 wins and at least the WC in 2011.
stickguy
12/3/2010-12:36pm at 12:36 pm (UTC -4)
Just because the FA pool may be underwhelming is no reason not to covet payroll room to use. As MF noted above:
Some of the biggest complaints are the FA class of 2012 and likely further will be slim as many teams have the mindset of locking up young players and/or trading ones they won’t be able to afford – therefore, the Mets should be going after those available right now.
THe “trading the ones they can’t afford” is the key. Often better than FA anyway, because you should get younger guys. Personally, I have had enough stupid signings of 31-32 YO guys that are past their prime for huge $/years. Like Bay, someone that is going to clog up the roster and budget for another 4 years most likely.
Anyone age 32 should get 2 years, max, because you are almost guaranteed to be paying for what they did, not what they will do.
so having a robust farm system gives you the luxury of trading a few nice parts for a better, ML proven, more expensive part.
oleosmirf
12/3/2010-12:54pm at 12:54 pm (UTC -4)
right now the FA SP are very weak. We all know Lee isnt coming and either is Pavano for that matter. We also know that we will have money next offseason so a multi-year deal for a SP wont happen either.
so basically unless we trade prospects (which i think is a terrible idea) the best options are guys like Young, Francis, Millwood etc. who we cant rely on for anything at all…
stickguy
12/3/2010-1:23pm at 1:23 pm (UTC -4)
make up the risk factor (injuries) in volume.
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-1:24pm at 1:24 pm (UTC -4)
Disposable pitchers?
stickguy
12/3/2010-1:49pm at 1:49 pm (UTC -4)
why not? I would rather get 100 decent innings out of 2 different guys (a distinct possibility with injury risks) then 200 out of 1 suckadelic guy.
I also think that innings (total) is the wrong way to look at it. I would rather see more innings per start, even if they need to miss a block at some point.
Ceetar
12/3/2010-1:46pm at 1:46 pm (UTC -4)
Unfortunately, not always possible. You’re bidding against the other guys. The Mets rumored to give Francis a ML deal for instance, but not Young? What if the Orioles think Young’s worth of a ML deal, but not Francis? Young probably goes to the ORioles then, and we can’t stash him at Buffalo.
Omar was pretty good at this, Misch wasn’t horrible as a 6th 7th guy, Freddy Garcia had a good year, just wouldn’t take that AAA assignment. Dickey. Tim Redding wasn’t quite disasterous. Maine and Perez fit into this category as well. Omar’s biggest issue was not turning around and selling these guys high, or letting them go. Same with Tatis, Marlon Anderson, Julio Franco, et al.
So if Sandy can find some guys like Omar did (or hell, if Omar can find them) I think we can piece the rotation together fairly well.
stickguy
12/3/2010-1:51pm at 1:51 pm (UTC -4)
I think Misch is just fine as a utility pitcher (MI, mop up, emergency starts), especially since he is cheap.
ANd I agree 100% that Omar was pretty good at finding that “lightning in a bottle”, but he then became addicted to it and kept it around too long.
Knowing when to cut and run is just as important to a GM as finding guys in the first place.
metsfan4decades
12/3/2010-1:53pm at 1:53 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, I agree – think the Mets should have been (and since they didn’t) NOW should be putting themselves in the position to be able to get these young players some teams can’t afford as they’re about to reach FA.
That and building up the farm system so we can afford to do these trades and also will have a shot at a couple of good, homegrown players coming up.
The Santana trade is a good example of this. IMO, we basically gave up nothing to get him. He was a premier pitcher and on the right side of 30. Too bad we could not have predicted the injuries end of each season since he’s been here.
You get the point though – these type of deals are what we should be doing as a NY team. Flexibility is going to become the bible…
Ceetar
12/3/2010-2:01pm at 2:01 pm (UTC -4)
The Santana example is perfect. A slumping team that just missed at the end adds the best pitcher in baseball. _no one_ thought that this wouldn’t put the Mets over the top.
metsfan4decades
12/3/2010-2:03pm at 2:03 pm (UTC -4)
I missed last night’s Hot Stove on SNY…are the tweets Rubin is spitting out reflecting anything from that show?
‘Alderson guarantees coming back from winter meetings with new player — even if it’s Rule 5 pick.’
‘Sandy Alderson fully expects Ollie Perez in spring training. Alderson says both he and Terry Collins will watch Ollie in Mexico.’
‘There is no expectation Pedro Feliciano will be re-signed by Mets.’
‘Mets not completely ruling out return of Henry Blanco, but not planning it. Consideration only because of lack of backup catchers. No talks.’
‘Alderson said he can’t imagine any extension talk with players before spring training.’
Ceetar
12/3/2010-2:10pm at 2:10 pm (UTC -4)
I rarely watch that stuff so i dunno.
I figured once Pedro left that the pick would be more worthwhile than signing him over another lefty.
He’s got a lot to do. Spring Training makes sense to talk Reyes extension.
wannybackstra
12/3/2010-2:12pm at 2:12 pm (UTC -4)
And then in June he can smack himself on the forehead when Reyes is on the DL again and he demonstrated no patience in actually determining whether Jose could play a whole season.
Ceetar
12/3/2010-2:14pm at 2:14 pm (UTC -4)
Reyes won’t be on the DL. Reyes just played a whole season, or at least 90% of one.
wannybackstra
12/3/2010-2:19pm at 2:19 pm (UTC -4)
What a far fetched idea to suggest that a guy who played 133 games (80 percent actually) and 36 games in the last two seasons, respectively, might be on the DL again.
And if he wasn’t injured last season then I’m wondering what excuse he has for his lousy performance.
Ceetar
12/3/2010-2:22pm at 2:22 pm (UTC -4)
He was injured last season and was a top-5 SS. he had no spring training remember? but that was a curable sickness..
Oh, and since that’s going off WAR, it’s cumulative and factors in the 133 games. So he’d be even better in that subpar year had he not had the oblique mismanaged and played hurt.
wannybackstra
12/3/2010-2:26pm at 2:26 pm (UTC -4)
So he was injured last season? Man, you’re hard to follow.
I don’t care if you decide that he’s a top 5 shortstop according a particular statistic, the top player with the middle name Bernabe, or the next American Idol. A leadoff hitter with a .320 OBP is not a top anything.
I’m dying to know if you realize that the Mets have not won a World Series in almost 25 years. It hasn’t all been good since 1986.
Ceetar
12/3/2010-2:30pm at 2:30 pm (UTC -4)
I’m unaware that the length of time has anything to do with anything.
you dismiss one statistic and throw another at me?
Don’t bat him leadoff then. Bat him third. whatever. If he maintains that OBP, yes, that’s suspect. Hopefully that was the biggest factor in his down year and he bumps it up a bit. He’s never going to be a .370 OBP guy.
oleosmirf
12/3/2010-2:31pm at 2:31 pm (UTC -4)
what he is trying to say is that he fully expects Reyes to be like he was in 2006-08 and his 09 and 10 bad seasons were simply anomalies.
wannybackstra
12/3/2010-2:34pm at 2:34 pm (UTC -4)
Jose didn’t want to bat third. And the way he performed last year, he shouldn’t bat third either.
I can’t see any way that you can defend his last season. And I have no idea why one would want to offer an extension to a guy who just underperformed and spent the majority of the last two season on the shelf.
wannybackstra
12/3/2010-2:35pm at 2:35 pm (UTC -4)
And that length of time is significant because that is the last time things were as good as you profess they are today.
kistics
12/3/2010-2:51pm at 2:51 pm (UTC -4)
You also have to remember that Reyes had terrible start last season because of such long lay off. But from May 20th and on Reyes batted
406AB .310/.346/.485
during ’06-’08 season his average was .292/.355/.461
stickguy
12/3/2010-3:15pm at 3:15 pm (UTC -4)
and that included playing taped up like a Mummy instead of taking a couple weeks to actually let the oblique heal.
he also seemed 100% healthy at the end of the year, so I don’t consider him damaged goods at this point.
oleosmirf
12/3/2010-2:28pm at 2:28 pm (UTC -4)
if you are correct then why not approach him for an extension in June where he is playing like he did 3 years ago????
Ceetar
12/3/2010-2:31pm at 2:31 pm (UTC -4)
Because he wasn’t approaching free agency where he’s going to get 15-20 million a year evne if he puts up the same numbers as 2010.
oleosmirf
12/3/2010-2:35pm at 2:35 pm (UTC -4)
Troy Tulowitski just signed for 15.7 mil a year, I dont see Reyes who is older, not as good defensively, and injury prone getting more than that.
given the Mets have so much money coming off the books and most of those players being replaced by prospects, i dont see how the Mets lose out unless they choose to let him go
Ceetar
12/3/2010-2:38pm at 2:38 pm (UTC -4)
EXACTLY. Tulo had a ton of time left. I want the Mets to sign Reyes for under market value, because he’s extremely valuable. if Tulo was a free agent right now, Yankee fans would already be asking “Derek who?”
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-2:38pm at 2:38 pm (UTC -4)
Tulo also signed a contract that is a 10 yr deal. you normally take less per year to insure more years. Tulo would easily get 22 per year if it was a 3 year deal. Easily.
wannybackstra
12/3/2010-2:43pm at 2:43 pm (UTC -4)
Tulo the last two seasons:
.305 .379 .560 in 273 games
Reyes:
.282 .328 .421 in 169 games
Apples and oranges.
kistics
12/3/2010-2:44pm at 2:44 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t think Reyes would sign an extension in June when he’s playing like ’06 Reyes. Because in open market, he would certainly be worth similar to Tulo.
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-2:47pm at 2:47 pm (UTC -4)
Totally understood. Then again, 22 Mil vs. 15 mil is apples V. oranges.
But your point is well made and understood. Prosecution rests.
kistics
12/3/2010-2:53pm at 2:53 pm (UTC -4)
Tulo is also a different type of player than Reyes. You cannot compare OBP and OPS numbers just because the type of hitter they are.
If Tulo was a leadoff hitter, his numbers might look totally different. Again, Apples and Oranges.
wannybackstra
12/3/2010-2:54pm at 2:54 pm (UTC -4)
Does anyone really think Jose Reyes would get paid in Albert Pujols territory next offseason? (I’m sure Ceetar does… but anyone else?)
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-2:55pm at 2:55 pm (UTC -4)
No, definitely not in that realm. I think he could command 17 per for 4 with an option, though.
All this talk of oranges… bust out the screwdrivers!
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-2:37pm at 2:37 pm (UTC -4)
If he’s playing well, I’m sure he’ll listen to the Mets offers right up until his agent announces that Jose is going to take his talents to the Free Agent Pool.
wannybackstra
12/3/2010-2:40pm at 2:40 pm (UTC -4)
Or to the disco.
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-2:42pm at 2:42 pm (UTC -4)
Do a little dance…
Make a little love…
Get down tonight…
Jose tonight…
wannybackstra
12/3/2010-2:07pm at 2:07 pm (UTC -4)
I like the idea of one of Francis or Young but definitely not both. If the Mets have these two guys penciled in as the 4th and 5th starters then it is just as likely that two of Gee, Ollie and Misch as our 4th starters. And that rotation would stink pretty pretty bad.
Both are good low risk high upside picks but neither is reliable bet to give the Mets anything resembling regular work. I would trust Satchel Paige to pitch more innings this season than Chris Young.
oleosmirf
12/3/2010-2:45pm at 2:45 pm (UTC -4)
I agree with your concerns but its not like there are other options. The mets are ONLY looking at guys who will cost no more than like 2-4 mil and will accept a 1 year deal. if those are the guidelines then its hard to find someone like you are describing.
no matter what they do the rotation will be question marks. the question is can we be lucky again and find a guy that can at least give you 25+ starts at an ERA below the league avg at a very lost cost
wannybackstra
12/3/2010-2:49pm at 2:49 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t know if that player is a free agent but perhaps he is available by trade.
wannybackstra
12/3/2010-2:11pm at 2:11 pm (UTC -4)
re: Carter. He mashed his entire minor league career (.307 .380 .514). I think at the very least he has a good career as LH pinch hitter, just like Marlon Anderson who couldn’t field a lick and threw like his arm was stuffed with hay. And Carter has more pop than Marlon. I don’t recall any complaints about Marlon until he forgot how to hit.
Too early to deem Carter as a poor hitter. I’m not sure this team has room for someone with little versatility but plenty of teams probably do.
As a PH for the Mets, he hit .328 .361 .466. That’s definitely useful.
Ceetar
12/3/2010-2:14pm at 2:14 pm (UTC -4)
But we don’t even know if he can hit lefties, as he didn’t face any. too one-dimensional at this point for the Mets.
wannybackstra
12/3/2010-2:20pm at 2:20 pm (UTC -4)
That’s Jerry’s fault. But how many pinch hitters these days face l and r handed pitchers?
oleosmirf
12/3/2010-2:47pm at 2:47 pm (UTC -4)
again why does Carter ever need to play the field. you can afford to never let him take the field more than 1-2 times a month when you have Evans and lets say Tony Gywnn Jr on the bench as well…
kistics
12/3/2010-3:01pm at 3:01 pm (UTC -4)
Another thing about Reyes extension is the length of the contract. If Reyes stays healthy all season, he’ll definitely want much longer contract than 4 years. He’ll be 28 next season and will probably want 6-7 year deal. A healthy season for Reyes and 6-7 year deal would be something like 6/90. I’d much rather settle with 4/40 now.
oleosmirf
12/3/2010-3:09pm at 3:09 pm (UTC -4)
what happens if Reyes has another bad year, you have 3 years 30 mil left of Reyes…
stickguy
12/3/2010-3:12pm at 3:12 pm (UTC -4)
we blame Omar?
but, what is a bad year? If he can replicate roughly 2010 thos e3 years (minus the thyroid, + ST), then he will be worth the 3/30.
kistics
12/3/2010-3:20pm at 3:20 pm (UTC -4)
agreed. and don’t forget that he had a rough start to the season shaking off the rust. but since then he has had very good numbers.
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-3:15pm at 3:15 pm (UTC -4)
Oleo, I know what side you and most sit on. I know what side I sit on. There are pluses and minuses to either. Wait and see and risk losing him. Jump early at a discount (hopefully) and risk a broken Reyes. To me, if you don’t extend him by spring training, he is going to go to FA. If he goes to FA, you’re going to pay top dollar, and my feeling is that some other team (Boston, the Orioles, the Dodgers, the Angels, no clue) will offer similar dollars and a year or 2 more than the Mets. Hindsight is unfortunately never useful when you need foresight. Time will tell.
stickguy
12/3/2010-3:20pm at 3:20 pm (UTC -4)
well, we seem to be on the same side on this one.
THe key to the extension now is making it a reasonable length, and moderately team friendly.
I would bet that if team Reyes told Sandy in ST that he will sign a 3 year extension (on top of his 2011 contract) of 3/39, Alderson takes the deal (assuming he looks fit and healthy in ST).
But, if they come in and ask for 5/80 tacked on, it wil lbe a non-starter.
And If he is playing out the year, and having a big season when July hits (very likely, he is still just hitting his prime), then he will just go ahead and play out the year. And then the odds favor him leaving.
Better hope the CBA still gives you some top draft picks in that case!
kistics
12/3/2010-3:27pm at 3:27 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. And 3 year makes sense for him now because he’ll still be 30-31 when that contract is up. And if he can prove he’s healthy at age 30-31, he can still collect the big contract. But if he hits the FA market after a healthy ’11 season, there’s no way he settles for a 3 year deal.
oleosmirf
12/3/2010-3:21pm at 3:21 pm (UTC -4)
I dont see how with 60 mil+ coming off the books they just lose him. they have to spend the money somehow and 1 SP doesnt cost that much.
stickguy
12/3/2010-3:27pm at 3:27 pm (UTC -4)
they don’t “have” to spend th emoney. Or give it all to 1 guy just because they can. Instead, they will either use it for other upgrades, or bank it for mid-season use. Or just blow it on a new yacht.
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-3:28pm at 3:28 pm (UTC -4)
OK, we have 60 mil coming off the books. Figure getting 1 SP at 10-ish per +/-. Hopefully a kid fills in with Beltran, otherwise you are looking to snag an OF. + some normal raises here and there. So yeah, I can see where you can have the cash to spend on him. So, I assume they can do another Beltran deal for Reyes if they wanted.
kistics
12/3/2010-3:36pm at 3:36 pm (UTC -4)
I think the bigger issue is the length of the contract. $10-11M vs $15-16M is not a big problem for 1 season. But if it’s 3 years vs 6-7 years, that’s a pretty big risk to take.
Unless the Mets want to lock him up 6-7 years.
metsfan4decades
12/3/2010-4:23pm at 4:23 pm (UTC -4)
This is my feeling as well. Wait and it will come back to bite us.
Not unless Sandy knows something from Reyes that we don’t – and I’m not thinking he does……
I would lean on the side of trying to extend him now.
I do understand the argument against that though.
kistics
12/3/2010-4:49pm at 4:49 pm (UTC -4)
I understand the argument against as well. And apparently that’s where Sandy will go and not talk about extension until ST starts.
stickguy
12/3/2010-4:55pm at 4:55 pm (UTC -4)
saying he is not planning too doesn’t mean that he won’t. If anything, it just puts the ball back in the agents court, and the pressure on them to start the negotiations.
I have to imagine if his agent calls up to talk that Sandy will make time to listen, especially if that side wants to make the first offer!
kistics
12/3/2010-3:17pm at 3:17 pm (UTC -4)
But you can say that about him AFTER he has a healthy/productive ’11 season.
I guess the difference is that you’d rather see him perform well this season and risk paying him more/longer
vs
extend him now and taking risk on 3/30M with the potential that Reyes has already peaked and is not that good.
IMO, Reyes still has the talent to be one of the premiere player at age 27. And if he stays healthy (and I feel that he is healthy now), I believe 10M/season is a bargain.
oleosmirf
12/3/2010-3:24pm at 3:24 pm (UTC -4)
Im positive Reyes comes back regardless. what he does this season depends on how much money and years he gets.
stickguy
12/3/2010-3:26pm at 3:26 pm (UTC -4)
I wouldn’t bet on it. ALderson will set a value, and make the offer, but I doubt he will go way over budget on Jose. If someone comes in with a Zito or Hampton offer, Jose will shimmy his way out of town.
oleosmirf
12/3/2010-9:00pm at 9:00 pm (UTC -4)
lol the Mets have 60 mil off the books, they can afford anyone next year
stickguy
12/3/2010-3:24pm at 3:24 pm (UTC -4)
signing an extension early is all about risk mitigation (on both sides), so the deal should be slightly less than true FA market value.
but I really don’t see him signing an extension for less than he is making in 2011 (11mill IIRC).
From Reyes’ POV, it is all about if he thinks he is healthy enough now to have a full, productive, big # season. If so, he plays out for the jackpot.
If he is worried that he has lost it to a degree, or will be hurt again, he is more likely to sign a lower deal now to guarantee the $$
but, this isn’t a case of finally getting a payday. He has already made 30+mill, so in theory, he should be OK even if the last gigantic deal doesn’t come through.
metsfan4decades
12/3/2010-4:27pm at 4:27 pm (UTC -4)
It just occurred to me that my mindset has been all one sided – like what the FO should do. I never really took into account what Reyes is thinking so you make some very good points on this.
If Reyes was thinking some type of extension this off season – even for just 3 years – and they’re obviously not doing it, will he be miffed at that? Take the chance and think ‘screw you, I’ll have a banner year and go out on FA’?
So many variables.
I guess the Rockies weren’t worried about Tulo’s past injuries when they just made that deal. –Which I’m still scratching my head about ’cause he was under team control for like another 3 years.
kistics
12/3/2010-4:57pm at 4:57 pm (UTC -4)
Another thing on Tulo’s extension is that he had an ‘okay’ season and ONE great month. Look at his numbers Apr – Aug (with 1 months out due to injury)
348 AB 59 R 12 HR 55 RBI 26 2B.
This translates into 104/22/97/46 over 162 games. These are good numbers, but I can’t justify a 10 year contract with these numbers.
kingman 26
12/3/2010-5:36pm at 5:36 pm (UTC -4)
Think about Colorado’s history—the Hampton and Helton deals….this is what they do.
Overpay, and for way too many years….
stickguy
12/3/2010-5:42pm at 5:42 pm (UTC -4)
you would think they would only have to do that with pitchers.
But, given his age and history, this easily could be Tulos only “real” contract. Not that he is likely to need one after this to be able to retire on comfortably!
Hey Knog, Mr. NJ was on another site trying to play matchmaker for you. hope you don’t mind!
Oh, it was a guy, and whatever you do, don’t mention anything sabermetric. He has a temper.
kingman 26
12/3/2010-10:23pm at 10:23 pm (UTC -4)
Now come on, that’s not fair!
Tell me which site and which moron he was trying to talk sense into!
stickguy
12/3/2010-10:34pm at 10:34 pm (UTC -4)
http://tommygunvideo.com/
hey, maybe he has some footage of you hiding behind a drum riser!
kingman 26
12/3/2010-10:37pm at 10:37 pm (UTC -4)
Hey, tell me where Mr N’s debate was dammit!
And trust me, I never hid behind no drum riser!
The link Sictk!
stickguy
12/3/2010-10:47pm at 10:47 pm (UTC -4)
just a nice discussion about music over at MMO in the chat box. Turns out that one of the regulars is tommygun. had a nice chat about music business, concerts, etc. NJ mentioned you being in that line of work and that you might find it interesting.
nothing nefarious. Not even baseball.
Oh, the saber comment was about him. He is very old fashioned about stats. Like the old ones, not them newfangled ones.
kingman 26
12/3/2010-10:56pm at 10:56 pm (UTC -4)
Gotcha; thanks…interesting.
How many sites do you grace with your presence?
I am still waiting for your fictional thriller about Jose’s style of play….
kingman 26
12/3/2010-10:58pm at 10:58 pm (UTC -4)
Hey, that was really cool; he even put a link to my site!
Damn, that NJ really is a cool cat.
stickguy
12/3/2010-11:17pm at 11:17 pm (UTC -4)
we’re looking out for you.
i haven’t gotten around to the Jose piece. Still working on a “hook” for it. my last one must not have been up to snuff, since it never appeared. Oh well.
other than here, I read at FWICG (and post occasionally if someone needs to be straightened out) and at MMO. NJ seems to hang out there a lot too.
if something looks interesting elsewhere on spyder I will check it out, but not on a regular basis.
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-11:22pm at 11:22 pm (UTC -4)
MMO is so frustrating. It’s nice they kick out articles like this site does on Sunday’s, but the posters there… I never quite knew what a combination of obstinate and confused looked like until MMO…
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-11:24pm at 11:24 pm (UTC -4)
Kah-nog, I have been meaning to ask you (seriously). Top 5 bassists who have influenced you? Go.
stickguy
12/3/2010-11:27pm at 11:27 pm (UTC -4)
Tex, sometimes you get an interesting debate. But you are right, the articles fly!
just gets tedious when you get 300 posts arguing about the same minutia.
but it helps the time pass.
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-11:31pm at 11:31 pm (UTC -4)
Stick, It’s the same frickin; argument every time. Stats vs. Bayonne. Or, Mets should trade Fmart and Carter (after he’s been released, obviously) for Greinke. The comments do make me chuckle.
stickguy
12/3/2010-11:36pm at 11:36 pm (UTC -4)
wait, you don’t like reading “it’s texting dammit” over and over?
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-11:44pm at 11:44 pm (UTC -4)
kingman 26
12/4/2010-12:15am at 12:15 am (UTC -4)
Ah NJTX, a great question.
From my playing days:
1–John Paul Jones—incredible chops, incredible taste, played through the changes in the most incredibly effective and tasteful blues/rock way; enhanced everything in the life of the original Zep.
2–John Entwistle—busy, yes, but SO badass and such a rock virtuoso. In my Seattle heyday, a player in a major Seattle 90s band told me that I sounded like a punk Entwistle, and at that moment I felt I could die happy.
3–Berry Oakley—original Allman Brothers bassist who died young; the lines he created for the Allmans blues-rock classics taught me how to play bass in the ’80s.
4–Flea—such a great player in the alternative rock/funk style—always creative, always pushing the boundaries of the song, but always enhancing the song, without overwhelming it.
5–Paul McCartney–not as technically virtuosic as the rest, but SO tasteful. His bass line on She Came In Through the Bathroom window still gives me chills.
Honorable mention: Stanley Clarke, Ron Carter, Paul Chambers, Duck Dunn, Les Claypool, Phil Lesh, Tony Levin, Jack Bruce, Bootsy Collins.
njstuckintx
12/4/2010-12:32am at 12:32 am (UTC -4)
Solid list, my man.
For me, top 5 is as follows.
1. Roger Waters
2. Colin Greenwood (Radiohead)
3.Mark Sandman – Morphine.
4. Zero 7 – band that is a collaboration. Just wonderful.
5. Flea – His bass on Mars Volta’s “De-Loused in the comatorium” is killer.
The others, as you mentioned…. Paul. so good. Les Claypool. Bundy K. Brown from Tortoise. John Paul Jones…. So good.
wannybackstra
12/4/2010-9:45am at 9:45 am (UTC -4)
if i may chime in as a former bass player:
1. stanley clarke — revolutionized jazz bass as a lead instrument and in so many other ways (technique)
2. flea — took some of stanley (though probably through bootsy) and applied it to rock
3. Cliff Burton — just listen to early Metallica and that feeling in your chest is all Cliff
4. Norwood Fisher — there’s nothing he can’t do with that instrument
5. Tough choice here between the likes of Jaco Pastorius, Mike Watt and Jon Entwhistle. But I will go with Doug Wimbish as a personal favorite, though the others are clearly more influential.
kingman 26
12/4/2010-10:03am at 10:03 am (UTC -4)
Nice lists guys….funny how many bassists we have here!
Definitely agree on your choices; Mark Sandman and Mike Watt especially.
We just had Morphine on in the office yesterday!
And everyone in the early 90s Seattle scene loved the Minutemen.
As Rusty knows, I have always had a love-hate relationship with the inimitable Jaco.
njstuckintx
12/4/2010-10:20am at 10:20 am (UTC -4)
Who needs 6 strings when you can say what you want to in 4?
Entwhistle is so solid. I overlook him all the time, then hear him and am like “how the heck did i forget about this guy?!?!”
Jaco to me is like the band Rush. Technically so good, technically… Never could get into either.
And I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention Nick Oliveri from early Queens of the Stone Age.
wannybackstra
12/4/2010-9:22pm at 9:22 pm (UTC -4)
feel the same way about geddy lee. and to an extent about victor wooten too — the bela fleck sound wears on me after a while.
the late bass player from blues traveler was excellent too — i think bobby (not billy) sheehan,
hazmet
12/3/2010-7:14pm at 7:14 pm (UTC -4)
I have a real hard time trying to whip up some excitement over the pursuit of Chris Young who was all of 20 innings better than Kelvim Escobar last year.
I’d just assume throw a Matt Harvey or Antonini to the wolves if we’re going youth movement anyway.
metsfan4decades
12/3/2010-8:43pm at 8:43 pm (UTC -4)
Matt Harvey for the 2001 rotation? He hasn’t thrown one professional pitch yet right?
I know players like Harvey are often on the fast track to the majors, but I think you might be just a tad optimistic on this one.
Or was that sarcasm and it went right over my head?
oleosmirf
12/3/2010-9:11pm at 9:11 pm (UTC -4)
i hate to break it to ya Haz but it doesnt look like anyone we will get this offseason will be exciting although Young and Francis did finish the season and pitched in October so its not like they are coming fresh off injury.
hazmet
12/4/2010-12:02pm at 12:02 pm (UTC -4)
Hi there, just a clarifier for where I was going. I totally don’t want them to go after anything big this off season. I just assume they keep stripping down and finding some in house option in the minors instead of spending on mid career guys who always seem to be injured, like Young. The other path is go for a guy like Suppan or even Petey class old guy who will give you 100-120 innings before Santana hopefully returns. It always depends on the price I guess and Young at the right price isn’t that bad it’s just I don’t believe we can count on him given all of I believe 36 starts over the last 3 years and 20 innings last year. I’d rather get someone who has a recent record of at least giving us 100 plus innings or go with someone from the minors, even if it meant uber fast tracking Harvey if he shows something in Spring.
oleosmirf
12/4/2010-2:15pm at 2:15 pm (UTC -4)
i think you have to the risk/reward way b/c going the safe route with Millwood or someone like that wont be enough to get us in the playoffs.
the only way we can make the playoffs IMO is if one of the SP we add has a season just as good if not better than Pelf did last season
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-10:01pm at 10:01 pm (UTC -4)
Is there a good site for looking at team salaries?
njstuckintx
12/3/2010-10:04pm at 10:04 pm (UTC -4)
Cots. nevermind…
stickguy
12/4/2010-12:57am at 12:57 am (UTC -4)
man, is there a lot of complaining about not getting tons of major moves this off season.
I think everyone forgets that last off season, they pretty much made all the big moves for BOTH years. well, Bay being the move. But in any case, they pretty much maxed out on what is reasonably the “budget” (or maybe ~10mill of a hard cap?).
and, this was recognizing that the rest of the big contracts were locked in for 2011. So basically they tooled up a core for a 2 year run, and the only thing likely to change anyway was the spare/filler/cheap parts.
Now who knows if it was a conscious decision, or omar knowing he only had 1 year left. But while Sandy certainly is trying to clean up as much as possible, we would have gotten the same basic team if Omar had stayed. hopefully though the new FO will get better spare parts!
still, last years club without losing so many games from key guys (and Bay blowing chunks) easily could have kept up the pace they were at at the ASB. same for 2011, if they can overcome the loss of Santana.