See ya!
According to multiple sources, Jason Werth has signed a seven year, 126 million dollar contract with the Washington Nationals.
He is penciled in to play right field.
Dec 05
Jayson Werth signs with the Nationals
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196 comments
rustyjr
12/5/2010-5:46pm at 5:46 pm (UTC -4)
dumb contract – but you know the lunatic fring section of the fan base will say last place here we come
although I do think it will be sad if the Pirates outspend us this offseason lol
Prismo
12/5/2010-5:48pm at 5:48 pm (UTC -4)
You know, if they still had Strasburg healthy and signed/traded for a good starter, they might be borderline competitive. But, alas, I’d still be surprised if they hit .500 at this point.
TRS86
12/6/2010-9:02am at 9:02 am (UTC -4)
.500? Their offense took a step back by going from Dunn to Werth. I don’t see how they are any better than last year.
Prismo
12/6/2010-9:12am at 9:12 am (UTC -4)
Huh? Yes, I said I would be surprised if they hit .500. As in I expect them to be under .500!
TRS86
12/6/2010-9:24am at 9:24 am (UTC -4)
Just saying that having them in the discussion of .500 at this point to me is silly. They have to win some games for me to ever take them seriously and signing a contract like this one to me makes them even less of a contender. Seriously, why not break the bank and go for Lee? That makes you much closer to a contender than Werth who makes you a pretender.
kistics
12/6/2010-9:33am at 9:33 am (UTC -4)
True. 6 years $22-23M per could possible land Lee. Plus, the talent increase is so much greater from Livan to Lee than Willingham to Werth.
Imagine Lee and Stras as 1-2 punch next season. That would draw some talents to the Nats.
saltygary
12/5/2010-5:56pm at 5:56 pm (UTC -4)
I wouldn’t call it lunatic fringe. Marlins just upgraded their decent rotation and they finished a game a head of the Mets. The Nats I believe were 10 back but if they have the resources to add more past Werth then it’s not out of line that the Mets can finish last. Fans just need to focus long term. This is going to be a tough year but you will not hear me get crazy. 2012 if the team is bottoming then I get effing crazy. Like Wally Backman kind of crazy. Like one flew over the cukoo’s nest kind of crazy.
oleosmirf
12/5/2010-6:01pm at 6:01 pm (UTC -4)
if Beltran, Bay and Reyes all have subpar seasons I think last place is very likely however, i dont see all 3 struggling.
stickguy
12/5/2010-6:06pm at 6:06 pm (UTC -4)
marlins also lost they primary power bat. That has to hurt.
and of course, if everyone on the mets sucks, they can finish last. Just as likely they all play up to their talent and they finish first.
and remember, the nats don’t have stras for this year. And werth is effectively just replacing Dunns output. So did they really get better?
and no, the mets have not added any big pieces. did not lose any either.
kingman 26
12/5/2010-6:23pm at 6:23 pm (UTC -4)
Finishing last is unlikely; finishing first is completely impossible, as was making the playoffs last year.
I am totally with Salty; as long as the kids get time to show what they can or cannot do, my patience extends until at least next offseason.
stickguy
12/5/2010-8:20pm at 8:20 pm (UTC -4)
unlikely. not impossible.
saltygary
12/5/2010-5:51pm at 5:51 pm (UTC -4)
WOW!!?!?!?!? Would love to revisit this contract 3 years from now. 18m for 7 on Werth is wild. You can look at it like a Pedro/Beltran contract where the Mets needed to throw mad money to sign people in order to get other folks on board. The only problem is Werth is now PEdro or Beltran. Lets see if the Nats will build upon this.
njstuckintx
12/5/2010-5:57pm at 5:57 pm (UTC -4)
Now, if Werth is getting 7 years, 126 million, you all need to take this “Reyes may sign at 4 years 11 million per” and just flush that down the toilette. Think more like 16 per for 6+ years, easy.
oleosmirf
12/5/2010-6:05pm at 6:05 pm (UTC -4)
not true. Jose’s biggest asset is the whole Mets win when Reyes scores aspect. His actual numbers are not gonna get him that type of contract…
stickguy
12/5/2010-6:07pm at 6:07 pm (UTC -4)
werth parlayed home games at CBP and hitting behind some really good players into this deal.
oleosmirf
12/5/2010-6:15pm at 6:15 pm (UTC -4)
i know but Werth hits 30 HR 100 RBI and bats .300 so his numbers are sexier than Reyes.
batting .290/.350 with 12 HR and 60 RBI is not gonna get that big of a contract even if Reyes is the better player…
njstuckintx
12/5/2010-6:10pm at 6:10 pm (UTC -4)
7 years for a 32 year old. Reyes is 28? He gets a deal of that magnitude, easy. And he plays SS. I’m starting to think that trading Reyes for a sweet package is going to be the way to go.
oleosmirf
12/5/2010-6:38pm at 6:38 pm (UTC -4)
again its apples and oranges were dealing with here. power hitters gets paid more…
njstuckintx
12/5/2010-6:50pm at 6:50 pm (UTC -4)
Power hitting corner OF vs. top 5 SS (when healthy). I hear what you are saying. HR’s a sexy and all that. Having a SS that has some pop in his bat, speed in his legs, ridiculous hair style and stellar D will bring in the big bucks. 4 years is a big difference. 32 yrs. to 28 yrs. Reyes is going to have to come up with a new “I have a lot of cash” dance for each Million in his bank account.
stickguy
12/5/2010-6:10pm at 6:10 pm (UTC -4)
lot’s of people thinking the mets chances got worse due to all the additions the other teams in the division are making.
and while the mets have not added anyone, they also didn’t lose anyone.
so who cares the nats added werth. they lost Dunn. Fla lost uggla.
I don’t see how either situation pushes them ahead of the mets.
The braves are the only one that are net gainers with uggla, unless they lost someone I forgot about.
Oh, and the Phils so far lost werth.
still TBD what the final +/- turns out to be for each team.
darknova306
12/5/2010-6:15pm at 6:15 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. Way too early to start predicting where all the teams wind up at the end of the 2011 season.
kingman 26
12/5/2010-6:24pm at 6:24 pm (UTC -4)
Not really.
1–Phils
2–Braves
3–Mets
4–Marlins
5–Nats
hazmet
12/5/2010-6:19pm at 6:19 pm (UTC -4)
Werth’s a nice player, but, not that nice. Jeez, crazy numbers. All this amounts to is trying to replace Dunn’s numbers with Werth contributing less bat but more glove. And moving from Citzens Bank to the Nats Digs I could easily see his home runs dropping from 27 down to 20-22. Werth at 31 years old and 7 years for those dollars is just a crazy contract, and it will mean little in moving the Nats up the rankings given the loss of Dunn’s numbers.
hazmet
12/5/2010-6:22pm at 6:22 pm (UTC -4)
After reading all the comments….. basically what Stick said.
metsfan4decades
12/5/2010-6:23pm at 6:23 pm (UTC -4)
7 years?? Just wow. I’d be very hesitant in the day and age to give anyone a 7 year contract at 32. But hey, it wasn’t the Mets signing on that dotted line so it’s fine with me.
And no, I still wouldn’t do it if the Mets had the opportunity and $$.
I find it too funny that the Philly fans will have to face Werth now in a Nat uni more often than not.
metsfan4decades
12/5/2010-6:25pm at 6:25 pm (UTC -4)
Wait…the Nats draft pick is protected, right? So the Phillies get nothing on that signing?
rustyjr
12/5/2010-6:27pm at 6:27 pm (UTC -4)
btw I gave you a shoutout in my column today lol
metsfan4decades
12/5/2010-7:42pm at 7:42 pm (UTC -4)
Me? I didn’t see anything. Guess I’ll have to go back and re-read that…..
rustyjr
12/5/2010-7:58pm at 7:58 pm (UTC -4)
It’s in the orl hershiser part
metsfan4decades
12/5/2010-9:04pm at 9:04 pm (UTC -4)
hahaha – I see it now.
You couldn’t be more accurate. Hershiser is at the top of my list for the Met I least liked seeing in a Met uniform. Thankfully, he wasn’t around long.
This goes back to some smug comments he made about himself and his team in some interview with him going into post season in ’88. I hated it even more that he was proved right when all was said and done…..
wannybackstra
12/5/2010-6:39pm at 6:39 pm (UTC -4)
2 supplemental picks.
stickguy
12/5/2010-8:23pm at 8:23 pm (UTC -4)
actually they get the nats 2nd round pick, plus a supplemental.
TRS86
12/6/2010-9:00am at 9:00 am (UTC -4)
I think that is correct.
Mr North Jersey
12/5/2010-6:29pm at 6:29 pm (UTC -4)
Rusty and me connecting on teamviewer is harder than Ollie throwing a fastball over the plate for a strike on a 3-2 count it seems.
rustyjr
12/5/2010-6:37pm at 6:37 pm (UTC -4)
Lol I’m not home – left for dinner
Mr North Jersey
12/5/2010-6:42pm at 6:42 pm (UTC -4)
I see I just thought you said you wanted to do something today and well I been waiting to hear from you as far as when you would be available.
Is today no longer convenient for you then?
Mr North Jersey
12/5/2010-6:43pm at 6:43 pm (UTC -4)
I would really try and get to the bottom as far as you getting a better feel for certain things.
Mr North Jersey
12/5/2010-6:49pm at 6:49 pm (UTC -4)
btw i am currently free so if your an author and would like me to do a teamviewer presentation session with you to chat while I help in anything you been curios about doing in your posts. I am available rite now.
just sittin here at desktop trying to escape reality for a spell on the net.
Teamviewer does not require installation to be used and is a secure app. I do though ask it only be PC users cause Apple OS may not work as far as what i can show that would also translate to a Apple.
Just go to teamviewer.com
rustyjr
12/5/2010-7:02pm at 7:02 pm (UTC -4)
I cleared it with my wife – will download it tomorrow
Mr North Jersey
12/5/2010-7:18pm at 7:18 pm (UTC -4)
OK Rusty. I guess today is a no go then.
Prismo
12/5/2010-6:58pm at 6:58 pm (UTC -4)
LOL did you guys see what Sandy said about the Werth contract?
“It makes some of our contracts look pretty good,” Alderson said. “That’s a long time and a lot of money. I thought they were trying to reduce the deficit in Washington.”
kingman 26
12/5/2010-7:10pm at 7:10 pm (UTC -4)
HAHA!
Sandy is cool.
metsfan4decades
12/5/2010-7:44pm at 7:44 pm (UTC -4)
Ha!. That is too funny.
I’m sure the Nats don’t appreciate that comment though.
I really thought we would see most contracts come back down to earth this off season. So far, it’s been the exact opposite.
We’d better start home growing most of the team, drafting smarter and trading for young talent. ‘Cause I don’t know how any team not named the Yankees is going to be able to afford to be paying some of these contracts….
Mr North Jersey
12/5/2010-7:43pm at 7:43 pm (UTC -4)
did you see the latest Biased Rubin reports?
Mejia back from shoulder woes
Top prospect Jenrry Mejia, who was shut down at the end of the regular season because of a strained rhomboid muscle in his right shoulder, made his first appearance for Licey in the Dominican winter league on Sunday night.
Mejia, who started against Escogido, surrendered two earned runs on three hits while striking out two and walking three, in 2 1/3 innings.
He escaped a rocky first inning unscathed — barely — after loading the bases with one out on two walks and a hit batter. Mejia then struck out Cubs rookie sensation Starlin Castro on three pitches and retired ex-Met Fernando Tatis on a groundball to second base.
Mejia’s fastball ranged from 92-95 mph, according to one observer.
The Mets hope to leave Mejia at Triple-A Buffalo in 2011 to develop, along with infielder Ruben Tejada.
Mr North Jersey
12/5/2010-7:44pm at 7:44 pm (UTC -4)
Don’t forget this one also from Rubin.
Alderson: Werth that money?
GM Sandy Alderson arrived at the winter meetings at Disney on Sunday at 4 p.m., shortly before the Washington Nationals announced a seven-year, $126 million deal with free agent outfielder Jayson Werth.
Alderson, who doesn’t have a ton of money to throw around, nonetheless wa surprised by Washington’s winning bid.
“It makes some of our contracts look pretty good,” Alderson said. “That’s a long time and a lot of money. I thought they were trying to reduce the deficit in Washington.”
Alderson said he has meetings scheduled with agents for Sunday night and with teams throughout the day Monday. Alderson noted he was one of the first GMs to arrive at the Dolphin Hotel.
It’s no secret the Mets are looking for bargains. And even while expressing dismay at the Werth contract, Alderson allowed that he would rather be in the position where he could throw around those dollars.
“I’d rather be in a position to say ‘no’ than ‘we don’t have the flexibility to participate in discussions,’” Alderson said. “At least in that part of the market at this point we are interested onlookers.”
Alderson added that “in some ways this is the worst possible time to be looking at free agents,” citing the bidding frenzy that occurs at the opening of the winter meetings.
He said: “The beginning of the winter meetings is always a little frenetic. While we want to be actively involved, one has to be cautious about an overheated market.”
Alderson reiterated he is generally averse to giving two year deals this winter and “compromising some of our options” in terms of spending flexibility for next offseason.
As for whether he has honed in on certain free agent targets, Alderson expressed quite the opposite.
“You ever see those omni-directional radars?” Alderson asked. “They scan everything. That’s where we are now.”
Mr North Jersey
12/5/2010-7:46pm at 7:46 pm (UTC -4)
sorry i just had 2 go there.
I am ready for my punishment now.
metsfan4decades
12/5/2010-8:48pm at 8:48 pm (UTC -4)
LOL….I just have to jump in – don’t ask me why…..
While I find Rubin normally on top of most stories and does a good job at accurately reporting the details, I just find him snarky (if that’s even a word).
I’ve been reading him awhile and in my opinion his tone did change when he went to ESPN. Others have called it ‘a chip on his shounder’, I describe it as snarky.
I still remember that press conference when Omar jumped all over him. The look on his face and his comments afterwords I found over the top. The ‘I’m speechless….I don’t even know if I can do my job now after this’. Come on….All I kept thinking was consider the source Rubin…..
Either way, I don’t avoid his articles and often do click on them in spyder if it catches my eye.
He’s not the Mets beat writer I’d vote the worst, but I’ll save that opinion if/when it ever comes up for debate here…
oleosmirf
12/5/2010-8:01pm at 8:01 pm (UTC -4)
i have no idea who Sandy is gonna acquire but I have faith that he knows what he’s doing and he’s pretty much on point with my thoughts on the team and their situation…
oleosmirf
12/5/2010-7:53pm at 7:53 pm (UTC -4)
how is that biased???
kingman 26
12/5/2010-7:58pm at 7:58 pm (UTC -4)
It’s not.
He’s trying to re-ignite a debate we had earlier where I suggested that Rubin’s suggesting that letting Carter go was over money was ridiculous.
Which it is. Carter was let go because Sandy knows the difference between AAA and MLB players.
kingman 26
12/5/2010-7:57pm at 7:57 pm (UTC -4)
Ah, definitely necessary.
And definitely taking the high road; especially after my last conciliatory comments earlier.
And definitely extremely hypocritical, considering the high horse attitude you often take on here.
The hypocrisy you and TRS show on here at times is truly incalculably magisterially mammoth.
stickguy
12/5/2010-8:30pm at 8:30 pm (UTC -4)
Looks like Knog got a thesaurus for Hanukkah!
Prismo
12/6/2010-9:14am at 9:14 am (UTC -4)
HAHA
TRS86
12/6/2010-9:38am at 9:38 am (UTC -4)
Well damn Kingman. LOL, I was not even part of this one but way to bring it back to sides again.
TRS86
12/6/2010-9:40am at 9:40 am (UTC -4)
Seriously, what the hell was that? I was enjoying a good morning of reading.
stickguy
12/5/2010-8:36pm at 8:36 pm (UTC -4)
the more you see what he is doing, and what he says, the more you realize that Sandy is the anti-omar.
Nice to here they are looking at all options, and are flexible about where to go with the off season. It always seemed that Omar would get fixated on a certain guy, or plan of attack, and not deviate even if it meant overpaying for Slappy or reupping ollie.
I always like the concept of taking what the market gives you instead of trying to force something that isn’t there. supply and demand 101.
I think this logic will also apply to what they do with reyes, in terms of can they make a deal which makes the team better overall, even if it means weakening SS.
Ceetar
12/5/2010-8:48pm at 8:48 pm (UTC -4)
The thing is, I don’t know that that’s true the more I think about it.
Sandy just said you have to be careful, especially early, at the Winter Meetings. overheated market, pressure to make a move, etc. And yet, at this time last year we were criticizing Omar for not giving in to that pressure and doing something. Obviously they have a different amount of job security at this point, but the goal is ultimately always the same. Make the team better.
metsfan4decades
12/5/2010-8:51pm at 8:51 pm (UTC -4)
Some of these contracts that are being signed really have me scratching my head – especially for players on the wrong side of 30.
I wonder if that’s b/c I’m really jaded now after living through the ’09 and ’10 seasons and all the injuries. What I probably wouldn’t have batted an eye at in ’06/07 I now want no part of, in most circumstances.
TRS86
12/6/2010-8:59am at 8:59 am (UTC -4)
Sorry NJ. OH MY LOL, LOL, LOL, LOL! OH MY.
kistics
12/6/2010-9:17am at 9:17 am (UTC -4)
I wish I was in Disney….
njstuckintx
12/6/2010-9:18am at 9:18 am (UTC -4)
You have a thing for the little Mermaid too?
kistics
12/6/2010-9:29am at 9:29 am (UTC -4)
I have a thing for warm weather and palm trees and golf courses…
Prismo
12/6/2010-9:19am at 9:19 am (UTC -4)
Me too! But I’d probably be in a theme park rather than in a hotel kissing GM butt.
kistics
12/6/2010-9:27am at 9:27 am (UTC -4)
Still better than this place..
kistics
12/6/2010-9:39am at 9:39 am (UTC -4)
I wonder how this signing impacts Reyes’ contract renewal. Crawford’s contract will definitely affect Reyes’ next contract. If Crawford signs for like $18-19M, Reyes with healthy ’11 season will definitely want $14-15M. Crap….
njstuckintx
12/6/2010-9:40am at 9:40 am (UTC -4)
I said that in another thread. Get ready for 2 picks and hopefully Flores in 2012! ;P
oleosmirf
12/6/2010-9:42am at 9:42 am (UTC -4)
Flores wont be playing SS at the MLB level…
TRS86
12/6/2010-9:45am at 9:45 am (UTC -4)
We don’t know that yet. It is unlikely but that being said they don’t seem in any rush to move him either.
njstuckintx
12/6/2010-9:46am at 9:46 am (UTC -4)
Time will tell.
TRS86
12/6/2010-9:45am at 9:45 am (UTC -4)
May not even get 2 picks. Remember Reyes would have to be healthy and have a very good year to move from Type B to Type A.
kistics
12/6/2010-10:03am at 10:03 am (UTC -4)
And I definitely think his trade value is terrible right now because of his Type B status.
oleosmirf
12/6/2010-9:41am at 9:41 am (UTC -4)
none at all. Reyes needs to be healthy and produce first…
TRS86
12/6/2010-9:43am at 9:43 am (UTC -4)
I am just not concerned with what a healthy Reyes wants. If Sandy deems him to be part of the future then I will gladly look over the fact they had to overpay to get him. However, trying to extend him now because of fear would be shortsighted. If he is healthy and can not be re-signed before next off-season then you go to a bidding war, set a price that you will not go over and move on if you can’t re-sign him. In between now and then if you see a trade that is a no-doubt make you better trade… you do it.
oleosmirf
12/6/2010-9:50am at 9:50 am (UTC -4)
i agree here although I still see Reyes coming back no matter what…
TRS86
12/6/2010-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
At this point so do I but I would put that at 60% now instead of 90%.
oleosmirf
12/6/2010-10:04am at 10:04 am (UTC -4)
I put it at 95%. The only way I don’t see him coming back is if a team gives him a ridiculous offer like the Nats did with Werth but given Jose’s injury problems and his reputation as being immature, I dont see a team doing that..
stickguy
12/6/2010-10:17am at 10:17 am (UTC -4)
I put it at 50/50, at best, that he comes back if he plays out the year. And I actually think the odds are much lower, since I am on record as saying that if he plays out the year with the mets, he is gone, goodbye. Some team will make the stupid offer, and he will take it.
and don’t worry about the reputation thing. THe GMs won’t be calling Knog for a reference.
metsfan4decades
12/6/2010-10:29am at 10:29 am (UTC -4)
My opinion as well, which just keeps strengthening giving these contracts other teams are offering.
njstuckintx
12/6/2010-10:19am at 10:19 am (UTC -4)
Agree to disagree, I guess.
njstuckintx
12/6/2010-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
If Reyes is not extended in the spring, he’s gone. Whether you want him extended (or not) does not matter. Alderson does not want to do long extensions to older players (he’s stated that). Unless you mitigate some risk by offering a 3+ year deal to Reyes now, if you do not extend him, he’s hitting the open market. So then you have “overpaying” for Reyes, which again, Alderson does not want to do long extensions to older players. So, you are looking at picks or whatever Sandy can find on the trade market. I can’t see this playing out any differently.
TRS86
12/6/2010-10:02am at 10:02 am (UTC -4)
Sandy never said that he would never give a contract to an older player and Reyes at 28 would hardly be old. I am confused by so many trying to interpret what Sandy says into what type of GM he will be based on no actions. We hear one side say he likes to lock up home grown talent while another side says he does not like long term deals. I am sure Sandy is intelligent enough to know that even if both were the case neither are firm rules. Reyes is a special situation and I am sure will be treated as such.
oleosmirf
12/6/2010-10:02am at 10:02 am (UTC -4)
Reyes is turning 28 in June, that is not old at all. A 5 year deal for Reyes means his contract ends at age 33 which is certainly not too old either.
you guys seem to be forgetting that the financial problems are only limited to this season and that the Mets will always have a 140 mil payroll. We are the Mets not the Athletics or the Padres, if the Mets want Reyes back, he will be here end of story.
TRS86
12/6/2010-10:07am at 10:07 am (UTC -4)
Agreed. The Mets will be able to outbid whomever else wants his services next year, period. It’s just a matter of if the Mets or Reyes want to continue their alliance.
njstuckintx
12/6/2010-10:17am at 10:17 am (UTC -4)
At the end of the day, it’s Reyes first. He’ll be bringing his Lambada to the highest bidder (whether it’s a smart signing for whichever team or not).
njstuckintx
12/6/2010-10:14am at 10:14 am (UTC -4)
OK, then both of you just helped my point. If 28 isn’t old, and Werth at 31/32 got a 7 year deal, you’re telling me the Mets are willing to spend big time based on a rebound year and likely have to go 6 years on him? Wouldn’t it be prudent to try and get only 3 years additional on him now, vs. going 6 years after this year, assuming a rebound year? And if he has a good year, you sign him for 6 years and then his legs fall off, then where are you? All hypotheticals, I know, but it’s being smart to swoop in early to get a lesser year/financially impacting contract, no?
And if he does have an injury plagued season again, you are going to get 1 pick (as you mention he’ll be a type B) when he walks, cause some one will spend the money & take the risk on him.
I understand the $$$ that will be available come 2012, but just whipping out dollar bills cause you can isn’t being prudent.
TRS86
12/6/2010-10:20am at 10:20 am (UTC -4)
To me it’s just not worth the risk. I think we understand each other on this one. I want to see if the old Reyes is back before investing 4 years and big money. If he is then I would gladly pay to keep him.
kistics
12/6/2010-10:24am at 10:24 am (UTC -4)
If healthy Reyes in ’11 season, he wants 6-7 years not 4 years.
stickguy
12/6/2010-10:24am at 10:24 am (UTC -4)
and like others have said, it won’t happen that way. If he has a healthy productive year, you aren’t getting him for 4 years at normal money.
so, if that is as far out as you ar ewilling to go, trade him now if you can.
TRS86
12/6/2010-10:27am at 10:27 am (UTC -4)
I understand that. Just saying I would rather invest 6 years in what I determine a healthy Reyes than investing 4 in what I saw last year.
oleosmirf
12/6/2010-10:27am at 10:27 am (UTC -4)
if Reyes returns to his 06-08 days then it proves 09-10 were just anomalies solely based on injury so yes they would be willing to spend.
I understand Werth just signed a ridiculous contract so many of you are all panicky but Reyes does not have the numbers (even at his best) to get that kind of deal. being a catalyst does not get you the same money as being a HR hitter.
TRS86
12/6/2010-10:40am at 10:40 am (UTC -4)
Agreed. Regardless, I just don’t see the risk. it’s like buying a used car in my opinion. I would rather test drive the car and pay more for what I determine a quality vehicle than to take the owners word for it and get it half price and broken down after 10,000 miles.
kistics
12/6/2010-10:43am at 10:43 am (UTC -4)
Let’s see what Crawford gets. He’s not a power hitter either, but some are projecting that he’ll get $18-19M per for 8 years.
Crawford is a lot like Reyes.
TRS86
12/6/2010-11:50am at 11:50 am (UTC -4)
Only a much better and more consistent hitter. Plus you have to factor in how weak this year’s market is in general. 3 big names tops. That is why a guy like Werth is getting paid like Holliday who was overpaid to start with.
kistics
12/6/2010-10:19am at 10:19 am (UTC -4)
The question is, is Reyes content with 5 year deal? If I were Jose, I would not. Assuming he’ll remain healthy and puts up good numbers, I would want at least 6-7 year deal. Something like 7/105-110.
Are you comfortable with giving him a 7 year deal? If you extend him now, you might be able to do 3-4 year deal rather than a 7 year deal.
njstuckintx
12/6/2010-10:20am at 10:20 am (UTC -4)
EXACTLY!!!!
oleosmirf
12/6/2010-10:28am at 10:28 am (UTC -4)
if thats the case then why would Jose agree to that??? it takes two to tango…
TRS86
12/6/2010-10:29am at 10:29 am (UTC -4)
I am even less comfortable giving last year’s Reyes 4 years.
kistics
12/6/2010-10:34am at 10:34 am (UTC -4)
So if you see healthy Reyes in ’11, you’re okay with giving 6-7 year deal?
TRS86
12/6/2010-10:40am at 10:40 am (UTC -4)
More so than I am in giving him a 4 year deal now.
kistics
12/6/2010-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
And Reyes did not play all that bad last season. Yes he did struggle early on, but from May 19 (season low in BA) his stats show .307/.343/.480. With 410AB, he had 63 R/11HR/43 RBI/ 126 Hits This is not bad at all.
TRS86
12/6/2010-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
Considering these are his 2nd half stats?
.293 .325 .448 .773
TRS86
12/6/2010-11:16am at 11:16 am (UTC -4)
I placed some stats below. I just don’t see how that adds up to a .343 OBP.
stickguy
12/6/2010-11:17am at 11:17 am (UTC -4)
you know what that tells me?
He was way the hell behind after missing ST and being shut down for so long, and it took him a while to get his legs, timing, etc. back. And when he did, he was vintage Jose.
then he pulled the damn oblique, and never took the time to let it heal, and it seriously impacted his game (at bat, and on the field).
TRS86
12/6/2010-11:22am at 11:22 am (UTC -4)
I see where you are coming from because he had a very strong 2 weeks to close May. Fact remains he closed the 2nd half with below average stats and the last we saw of him he was having his normal September collapse. .256 .304 .453 .758
TRS86
12/6/2010-11:23am at 11:23 am (UTC -4)
You know what it tells me? I have no idea what to expect from him for next year.
kistics
12/6/2010-10:13am at 10:13 am (UTC -4)
I’m still on the fence about that. On one hand, I agree with your point that renewing his contract may save some money later. But I’m not sure if Reyes (and his agent) will want to renew the contract now (at $10-11M per for 3-4 years) seeing what the FA market looks like now, especially with relatively thin FA market in 2012.
stickguy
12/6/2010-10:22am at 10:22 am (UTC -4)
unless the mets offer a heatlhy sized deal now (say 4/60) tacked on, he is playing out the year. No chance he is going to sign for 3/30. And the 4 years would only be a hedge against getting hurt again, so he can be a FA again at 33.
could be a short conversation with his agent, and a simple process.
sandy: 3/36 added to existing contract.
Agent: 6/100, sarting in 2011.
Sandy: Have the veal. I here it is good.
Then he hits FA, another team offers werth money, and he shimmy shammys out of town (I added that line for Knog).
metsfan4decades
12/6/2010-10:32am at 10:32 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, I don’t think it matters what Sandy’s thinking concerning Reyes b/c I don’t think offering him 3 or even 4 years right now would get it done.
It’s all about what Reyes is thinking. And I’m leaning towards he believes he’s healthy, he’s gonna go out and show all this year and he’s going to hit FA.
stickguy
12/6/2010-10:37am at 10:37 am (UTC -4)
hard to blame him for rolling the jackpot dice. Even last years model will still get a pretty good contract.
hell, it is guaranteed the mets offer him arbitration so he always has another 8 figure salary for 2012 to fall back.
on!
Actually, that is an overlooked point with many of these FAs. In the past, this was the first shot for many players to makre real big (as in retire and live on it) money. Not that they were underpaid, but they weren’t exactly filthy rich already.
Now, with the buy out deals like Reyes is finishing, they have already made what, 30million+? so the idea of having to try and milk every last dollar out of the next deal to provide security for his family doesn’t seem to apply quite as much.
oleosmirf
12/6/2010-10:42am at 10:42 am (UTC -4)
not to mention that NY is a tough place to turn down especially when you’ve had success here and been here your entire career.
I mean I cant see Reyes leaving the Mets to go play for another team b/c it wont be the same. Its just not as fun…
stickguy
12/6/2010-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
the NY media is fun? Getting boo’d is fun?
somehow, I think the guys in texas or st. louis think they are having fun too!
kistics
12/6/2010-10:33am at 10:33 am (UTC -4)
Actually I take it back on thin FA Market.
The SS FA market is not thin which will work against Reyes. In 2012, you have
Jason Bartlett (32)
Yuniesky Betancourt (30) – $6MM club option with a $2MM buyout
Ronny Cedeno (29) – club option
Rafael Furcal (34) – $12MM club/vesting option
Alex Gonzalez (34)
J.J. Hardy (29)
Omar Infante (30)
John McDonald (37)
Jose Reyes (29)
Jimmy Rollins (33)
Ramon Santiago (32)
Marco Scutaro (36) – $6MM club option/$3MM player option with a $1.5MM buyout
Miguel Tejada (38)
Jack Wilson (34)
Granted some will renew their contracts or get their options picked up, but SS FA market is actually pretty good. Which will help the Mets.
njstuckintx
12/6/2010-11:17am at 11:17 am (UTC -4)
I’d consider that to be thin.
TRS86
12/6/2010-11:15am at 11:15 am (UTC -4)
Generated 12/6/2010.
kistics
12/6/2010-11:19am at 11:19 am (UTC -4)
He did have a monster June which can translate into .343 OBP.
I got the numbers from BR too.
TRS86
12/6/2010-11:25am at 11:25 am (UTC -4)
I went back and saw that you had included an incredible 2 weeks in May. However after those 2 weeks you would get what you see above. .360, .338, .320, .304 with Reyes saying he has no idea why he basically refuses to take a walk.
kistics
12/6/2010-11:31am at 11:31 am (UTC -4)
I think you also have to take a look at the fact this team was a very low OBP team last season and that had to impact Reyes’ approach at the plate a little. I’m not excusing the guy for not drawing any walks, but the coaching staff/management did not help the cause either.
TRS86
12/6/2010-11:36am at 11:36 am (UTC -4)
Seems like an easy excuse to me.
kistics
12/6/2010-11:41am at 11:41 am (UTC -4)
Boohoo!
oleosmirf
12/6/2010-10:37am at 10:37 am (UTC -4)
if Reyes goes out and returns to around his 06-08 avg of .292/.355 with 16 HR 70 RBI 15 3B and 65 SB then I absolutely want to give him that 6 year deal.
Do you really think Jose will leave the bright lights of NY for another team just b/c of an extra year??? We are a big market NY team, fan favorites dont leave NY in their prime, its usually the other way around…
stickguy
12/6/2010-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
I absolutely think he will bolt for an extra year and some more millions.
Hell, werth was a fan favorite, on a team that is probably the NL favorite to return to the WS next year, the team made (as reported in the paper) a very substantial offer, and he couldn’t sign fast enough when the Nats went stupid money on him.
And I doubt he cares 1 iota if they finish last every year of that deal. He is getting old, already has a ring, so what else is there to play for other than the paycheck?
and I know this is hard to beleive, but NYC is not an attraction to everyone.
TRS86
12/6/2010-10:49am at 10:49 am (UTC -4)
I will believe that the Phillies came even close to that figure when Boras and Werth come out and say they did. At this point we know they could not afford it and any offer that was made was just penance to the dumb portion of the fanbase…. insert joke here.
stickguy
12/6/2010-11:10am at 11:10 am (UTC -4)
well, needless to say, there were a few articles about this in the Philly paper today!
THe GM confirmed directly that they offered him roughly the same yearly salary, just not the years. From his comments, and a number of other reports, it is a pretty safe assumption that they offered him roughly Jason Bay’s contract.
TRS86
12/6/2010-11:26am at 11:26 am (UTC -4)
And basically why would he take that and I am sure the Phillies knew he would not.
TRS86
12/6/2010-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
Lets look at who will be looking and can afford that type of money.
Redsox….. uh… uh….
oleosmirf
12/6/2010-10:45am at 10:45 am (UTC -4)
probably not even the Red Sox now that they have Gonzo. I mean i could see a team like Seattle, Cleveland, LA or Toronto but I cant see Jose saying he’d play there…
kistics
12/6/2010-10:46am at 10:46 am (UTC -4)
Phillies (though very unlikely)
stickguy
12/6/2010-11:04am at 11:04 am (UTC -4)
they will need a SS after this year though, since it would not surprise me at all to see them let Rollins walk.
oh wait, rollins never walks. But he will still be shown the door.
njstuckintx
12/6/2010-10:47am at 10:47 am (UTC -4)
Angels, Astros (with new owner, for sure), Baltimore, Dodgers (after divorce is settled), Boston for starters.
TRS86
12/6/2010-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
Dodgers have a decent option on Furcal.
Angels are going to spend a TON of money this off-season with guys like Crawford.
Houston, I guess they would be looking but again unless he is blown away, why go to Houston?
O’s? let him go. Have fun buddy.
njstuckintx
12/6/2010-11:00am at 11:00 am (UTC -4)
No State income tax!!!
TRS86
12/6/2010-11:05am at 11:05 am (UTC -4)
That’s true but again if the Mets WANT him I don’t see them being over bid.
The question will be if Sandy determines that spending that amount on Reyes is what the team needs.
njstuckintx
12/6/2010-11:08am at 11:08 am (UTC -4)
Yes & understood.
I get the feeling we won’t see the Mets be so top heavy as they previously were, but again, we’ll see.
In Sandy we trust.
kistics
12/6/2010-11:06am at 11:06 am (UTC -4)
It’s not who you play for, but it’s how much you play for.
Dodgers, Furcal will be a FA at the same time Reyes is.
Angels will have about $25-30M coming off the books
Why not go to Houston or Orioles if they can show you the $$?
Why is Werth playing for the Nats? Why did Hampton play for the Rockies? Why can’t Reyes play for Orioles or Astros?
TRS86
12/6/2010-11:28am at 11:28 am (UTC -4)
He can and I would be prepared to let him if somehow they wanted to outbid the Mets. However, if that happens then I will trust that Sandy determined that the Mets were better off without Jose.
njstuckintx
12/6/2010-10:45am at 10:45 am (UTC -4)
Do you go 7 years? 8 years? What’s you point where you say you can’t go that high? Cause if he has a year like that, 7+ year deals will be on the table.
TRS86
12/6/2010-10:51am at 10:51 am (UTC -4)
Depends on this season. If he shows to be 2008 Reyes and can take a walk and look to improve on his OBP while still showing that same speed? 6-7 years? sure. 4 years right now, after what we saw last year? Why?
oleosmirf
12/6/2010-10:53am at 10:53 am (UTC -4)
because they are all paranoid and believe that Sandy wont give big contracts out.
TRS86
12/6/2010-11:04am at 11:04 am (UTC -4)
Right and he has never said that.
oleosmirf
12/6/2010-10:51am at 10:51 am (UTC -4)
obviously you dont give him an 8 year deal although I highly doubt any team values Reyes the same way we do. players who dont hit for a very high avg and/or dont hit HR just dont get that much money. can you show me a player did???
njstuckintx
12/6/2010-10:52am at 10:52 am (UTC -4)
Crawford, Carl, with contract to be determined shortly.
kistics
12/6/2010-11:00am at 11:00 am (UTC -4)
and Jeter with his $190M contract.
TRS86
12/6/2010-11:03am at 11:03 am (UTC -4)
Are we really going to compare Jeter and Reyes?
When Reyes puts up one of these: .349 .438 .552 .989
get back to me.
kistics
12/6/2010-11:08am at 11:08 am (UTC -4)
Oleo mentioned that Reyes doesn’t hit enough HRs to demand that much $$. So I was just mentioning Jeter.
Do I think Reyes will get Jeter’s money? No. But Reyes can certainly demand (and will get) $14-15M for 6-7 years.
oleosmirf
12/6/2010-11:25am at 11:25 am (UTC -4)
Derek Jeter is a special case b/c his value has nothing to do with his ability to play baseball. Its all about his image. Derek Jeter is the face of the Yankees and is a HUGE sex symbol and that in itself gets him 10 mil more than what he is worth on the field…
TRS86
12/6/2010-11:29am at 11:29 am (UTC -4)
Go back and look at Jeter’s last 3 years before signing that mega deal. Jose is not even in the same class.
TRS86
12/6/2010-11:32am at 11:32 am (UTC -4)
Finished #3, #6, #10 in MVP voting with .869, .989, .896 OPS’s and coming off of 2 strait seasons with OBP’s over .400.
It just seems silly to compare Jeter and Reyes, especially offensively.
kistics
12/6/2010-11:34am at 11:34 am (UTC -4)
Yeah Jeter’s numbers were ridiculous in ’99
TRS86
12/6/2010-11:02am at 11:02 am (UTC -4)
Lets wait and see what he gets and realize that he has been healthy 8/9 years and even in the one year he was not, he still played in 109 games.
Crawford has also had an OPS over .800 for 5/6 years where as Reyes has only done that twice in his career. Offensively Crawford at this point is a better player.
stickguy
12/6/2010-11:07am at 11:07 am (UTC -4)
thee is still a huge premium though for a SS vs. a left fielder.
njstuckintx
12/6/2010-11:09am at 11:09 am (UTC -4)
and bingo was his name-oh.
TRS86
12/6/2010-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
True enough, however, what about one that has declined defensively?
Or perhaps the fact that Crawford is considered the best LF defensively in the MLB>
kistics
12/6/2010-11:10am at 11:10 am (UTC -4)
That’s why Crawford will get $18-19M compared to $14-15 for Reyes.
oleosmirf
12/6/2010-11:41am at 11:41 am (UTC -4)
and at 14-15 mil for 5-6 years, it shouldnt be too hard to resign him
oleosmirf
12/6/2010-11:03am at 11:03 am (UTC -4)
not at all true. Reyes doesnt hit .300 consistently. Crawford has done that 5 out of the last 6 years whereas Reyes did it once 4 years ago. Crawford doesnt have injury and attitude concerns (fair or not).
not to menton Crawford is a 3 hitter whereas Reyes is a leadoff hitter and leadoff hitters dont get paid the same way…
oleosmirf
12/6/2010-11:08am at 11:08 am (UTC -4)
someone please tell me the last time a leadoff hitter signed a monster contract like you all assume Reyes will get???
njstuckintx
12/6/2010-11:11am at 11:11 am (UTC -4)
Jeter, though he’s more of a number 2.
Rickey Henderson.
I’m sorry, I’m fading on this argument. I’ll just let it lay and see were were are 1 year from today.
stickguy
12/6/2010-11:11am at 11:11 am (UTC -4)
I still say he should be hitting in the 2 hole, if that helps you any!
kistics
12/6/2010-11:16am at 11:16 am (UTC -4)
Ichiro (Okay Reyes is not Ichiro, but he’s a leadoff hitter) $17M per
Damon $13M per
TRS86
12/6/2010-11:34am at 11:34 am (UTC -4)
Ichiro could hit in many more spots than just lead off. He just happens to have a .376 OBP>
oleosmirf
12/6/2010-11:40am at 11:40 am (UTC -4)
he basically is Tony Gwynn with more speed and better defense.
oleosmirf
12/6/2010-11:35am at 11:35 am (UTC -4)
Derek Jeter doesnt count (see above). Ichiro is also a first ballot unanimous HOF and one of the top 5 pure hitters to ever play the game of baseball so you are left with Johnny Damon as your best benchmark at 4 years 52 million and Juan Pierre at 5 years 44.
TRS86
12/6/2010-11:48am at 11:48 am (UTC -4)
I think honestly it’s hard to figure out what Reyes will get based on any other deals. To me everything is a case for case basis.
stickguy
12/6/2010-11:19am at 11:19 am (UTC -4)
I think it is tiem for an author to start a “reyes” yeah or nay” thread, since I think this one has gone far away from Jason werth!
njstuckintx
12/6/2010-11:27am at 11:27 am (UTC -4)
Jason who?
kistics
12/6/2010-11:35am at 11:35 am (UTC -4)
Bay….
TRS86
12/6/2010-11:35am at 11:35 am (UTC -4)
He has became just what the Nats are, insignificant.
njstuckintx
12/6/2010-11:42am at 11:42 am (UTC -4)
Did the Nats make out with your girl back in High School or something?
TRS86
12/6/2010-11:47am at 11:47 am (UTC -4)
Nah, just inside joke more than anything. Still it’s just every year there seems to be a group saying watch out for the Nationals and every year they finish last.
TRS86
12/6/2010-11:45am at 11:45 am (UTC -4)
Here’s one to get you going.
Reyes and Duda for Garza and Bartlett.
Tell me why it works or does not work for each team.
njstuckintx
12/6/2010-11:48am at 11:48 am (UTC -4)
Doesn’t work for the Rays because of Reyes salary.
Works for the Mets. For their need of a pitcher and a replacement SS.
TRS86
12/6/2010-11:51am at 11:51 am (UTC -4)
They can afford Reyes’ current salary quite easily. Now you could say that extension might not work, however if they could be given a window and get Reyes for much cheaper than they would have been able to extend Crawford…
njstuckintx
12/6/2010-11:56am at 11:56 am (UTC -4)
I thought they were only looking to move Garza because they wanted to lower salary. How is removing Garza and his 6ish mil for Reyes and his 11 million reducing salary?
TRS86
12/6/2010-12:00pm at 12:00 pm (UTC -4)
I think it is two fold. They don’t like his salary compared to their other pitchers AND they want to upgrade the offense through trade if necessary.
oleosmirf
12/6/2010-12:00pm at 12:00 pm (UTC -4)
because Bartlett and Garza combined will make around the same as Reyes but its all for nothing as that trade just wont happen for so many reasons…
TRS86
12/6/2010-12:01pm at 12:01 pm (UTC -4)
Oh I agree, it’s not happening.
oleosmirf
12/6/2010-11:50am at 11:50 am (UTC -4)
b/c they have Brignac they plan on starting at SS and Garza is a pretty damn good pitcher who apparently doesnt hit FA until 2014. I just dont see why they would do that.
TRS86
12/6/2010-11:52am at 11:52 am (UTC -4)
I see that point with Brignac. They could use Reyes to compete this year and give him another year in AAA. I think if they trade Garza though it will be for prospects. Just having a little fun.
oleosmirf
12/6/2010-11:58am at 11:58 am (UTC -4)
i also am really against trading Reyes even in that situation just b/c i feel very strongly that 1) we wont be in the playoffs so the “need” for a SP for this season is not important and 2) Yu Darvish will be in our rotation next season.
Santana, Darvish, Pelfrey, Niese, Dickey, Mejia, Harvey, Gee as our SP depth in 2011 is very very good.
TRS86
12/6/2010-12:01pm at 12:01 pm (UTC -4)
True but the long-term need is there and imagine
Johan, Darvish, Garza, Pelfrey, Niese.
oleosmirf
12/6/2010-12:08pm at 12:08 pm (UTC -4)
I understand where you are coming from but I think its safe to say, injuries aside, Mejia will be in the rotation to start the 2012 season and also if Dickey has another very good season he will be in the picture as well.
I just dont see a need for Garza besides this season and given that i think our situation is perfectly set up for Darvish whereas Reyes at SS we will need for the next 5+ years.
njstuckintx
12/6/2010-12:08pm at 12:08 pm (UTC -4)
Now that is a rotation I could feel good about!
stickguy
12/6/2010-1:17pm at 1:17 pm (UTC -4)
looks fine to me.
hell, even if you take out garza and insert Dicksy (assuming he keeps pitching like last year), it is pretty damned good. If darvish is for real, no one less than a #3, and potentially a rotation of all #2s.
njstuckintx
12/6/2010-1:22pm at 1:22 pm (UTC -4)
Yu is going to cost a whole lotta greenbacks. that 60 million is going to go quickly… Yu, Jose, arb raises… Madoff… oops, did I say that?
oleosmirf
12/6/2010-1:23pm at 1:23 pm (UTC -4)
he is the same age as Jon Niese and is putting up filthy numbers in Japan. considering after resigning Reyes, the Mets wont have many other places to spend money, I think it makes sense that Darvish comes here.
even if Darvish comes to the states and his ERA jumps 2 full runs, he’s still on par with Pelf…
stickguy
12/6/2010-1:32pm at 1:32 pm (UTC -4)
well, considering I already have Reyes leaving, there will be even more money to play with!
TRS86
12/6/2010-12:35pm at 12:35 pm (UTC -4)
This is for you Stick,
“The Phillies’ offer, which GM Ruben Amaro Jr. deemed “significant,” was for three years and about $48MM according to CSNPhilly.com’s Jim Salisbury. MLB.com’s Todd Zolecki notes that a fourth-year vesting option would have increased the value to $60MM.”
LOL, token offer at best.
stickguy
12/6/2010-1:15pm at 1:15 pm (UTC -4)
he plays like Bay (with fewer HRs), and was offered roughly the same deal as bay. Seems logical to me.
plus, it was a first offer. Meaning of course it is going to be a little low, with room to compromise.
so not token. And from the reports last night, probably consistant with what other teams were offering.
You know a team made a stupid ass offer, when Boras grabs the pen and signs immediately, without even trying to shop it.
of, and this means that you believe a hilly media hack has detailed, accurate inside info.
TRS86
12/6/2010-1:25pm at 1:25 pm (UTC -4)
That’s two guys reporting it. I am sorry but there was no way Werth was taking a deal half of what he got in Washington. Obviously they over paid, however, the Phillies knew that Werth would not sign for that amount and Werth knew they had no substantial room to increase it.
stickguy
12/6/2010-1:36pm at 1:36 pm (UTC -4)
Every report also said no other team was close to that. ANd the average salary was within a couple million so certainly comparable, and within wiggle room.
If the nats had not gone insane, was any other team going to snap and go 7? 6? hell, even 5? Maybe, maybe not.
so say the nats had gone insane on Lee instead. werth easily could have been left looking at a bunch of offers similar to the Bay deal.
of course he took a stupid high offer. And I am sure if the PIrates off cliff lee 8/200 tomorrow, he will sign immediately too.
oleosmirf
12/6/2010-1:39pm at 1:39 pm (UTC -4)
128 mil and 48 mil really arent close considering the chances of him recouping that 70 million is very small
TRS86
12/6/2010-1:41pm at 1:41 pm (UTC -4)
Not really the point, the Phillies had no intentions of re-signing Werth and Werth had no intentions of going back. Any offers were just to appease a fanbase. The Phillies had to know there was no way in hell Werth would take anywhere near 4/60 when he was rated in the top 3 FA this off-season.
stickguy
12/6/2010-1:52pm at 1:52 pm (UTC -4)
so? they made a reasonable offer to start with, like they should. They actually wanted him back, just not at the silly money he got. It was not to appease the fan base. trust me, the fans down here knew he was gone early in the year, and would not have cared 1 iota if the team never made him an offer.
and the Nats did not offer much more per year than other teams, it was just the silly length that makes it look so bad. Kind of like the castillo deal. 2/12 was defendable, but 4/24 was not.
TRS86
12/6/2010-1:57pm at 1:57 pm (UTC -4)
The years are a big part of it obviously but so is the extra 3M per year. Again, the Phillies knew they had no shot at re-signing him. The offer was pointless.
oleosmirf
12/6/2010-1:56pm at 1:56 pm (UTC -4)
wasn’t it you who said teams dont do that or am i mistaking you for someone else???
TRS86
12/6/2010-2:00pm at 2:00 pm (UTC -4)
I never said that teams don’t do that. Just in the case that you mentioned, can’t remember what it was, that I did not feel the Mets did that.