" Is this a reason to panic ?!?"
Well I guess the Yankees and their fans will finally get a taste of their own medicine. Thats right while we were sleeping ( me at least) Cliff Lee and the Philadelphia Phillies came to a five year 120 million dollar contract.
I admit when I woke up and I saw the news that I threw up a little in my mouth, clutched my chest and called out for Elizabeth. I curse the Phillies and the fact that they have the balls to expand their payroll just to put a elite team on the field.
But you know what ? I do not blame either Sandy Alderson nor the Wilpons. Hey I won’t even blame the late George Steinbrenner for making free agency a farce.
The Phillies are playing by the rules and they just made themselves even better.
But the question is at what cost? You have to think that the Phillies General Manager, Ruben Amaro Jr has blown his budget for this off season, and I feel he has definitely hamstrung his team payroll wise for the for-coming future. In the next couple of years players such as Utley, Victorino and Hammels will be seeking rich paydays, the question is will the Phillies be able to afford it , especially since it seems they have catapulted themselves pretty close to the luxury tax stratosphere.
I know there is a large contingent of Mets fans that are angry and frustrated, pulling their hair out of their skulls, but you know what? You don’t win championships on paper. Just as Omar Minaya and the ’07 Mets.
I just feel that with this signing the Mets will feel compelled to go beyond what they were looking to spend this off season, just to appease the fan. I feel Alderson acquitted himself quite well at the inquisitional tone and the baiting tactics of Mike Francessa. He stood by his plan and at times he put the fat man on the defensive. But does this bombshell change his blueprint at all ? I hope he sticks to the general frame of his plan, bur allots himself a few extra sheckels to import a pitcher that is closer to being a sure thing than a low risk/high reward reclamation project.
In the end I just feel for the Texas Rangers.
And with that said …. HERE COMES THE INFAMY !!!!
Mets alumni celebrating birthdays today are :
Today would have been the 67th birthday of Mets third string catcher, Jerry May (1943) .
Mets reserve catcher from ’65-’68, Greg Goossen is 65 (1945) .
Mets batting coach during the Willie Randolph era, Rick Down is 60 (1950) .
Sadly on this day in ’04, one of the first Mets home grown stars , “Hot Rod” Rod Kanehl passed away. He was known for his all out defense along with a streaky bat.
also on this day in ’08, reliever from the Mets ’67 team, Nick Willhite passed away.
Texas Rangers signed utility infielder, Mario Diaz of the New York Mets as a free agent on December 14, 1990.
New York Mets signed free agent outfielder, Lance Johnson of the Chicago White Sox on December 14, 1995. Lance, along side Bernard Gilkey were two of the main reasons to watch that horrible ’95 season.
Boston Red Sox signed reliever, Brad Clontz of the New York Mets as a free agent on December 14, 1998.
New York Mets traded David Justice to the Oakland Athletics for relievers, Mark Guthrie and Tyler Yates on December 14, 2001. This trade was a wash . Gutherie would only pitch one season for the Mets and Yates would go on to be a journeyman pitcher.
And while you are thinking of clever ways to commit suicide because of the Cliff Lee signing just relax and remember that there are just 108 days until the Mets open the 2011 season against the Florida Marlins in Miami and 115 days until the Mets 2011 home opener against the Washington Nationals at Citi Field.
Mo Vaughn has offered his services on making Cliff Lee disappear. He said the only tools that he needs is are a crossbow, bone saw, frying pan and butter !!
111 comments
njstuckintx
12/14/2010-5:41am at 5:41 am (UTC -4)
I do have to say, I’m still rolling with “in sandy we trust” until 2012. he’s got that from me. As for the Phillies, time will tell if it is money well spent. They are going to be so tough for the short term. The only thing I’m waiting for is the Coupons and Madoff’s and such to come out of the woodworks about why the Mets couldn’t do this when the Phils already have a higher payroll than the Mets and still went the extra mile… This has a whole lot of Kevin Brown written all over it. Still, Phils will be the favs for about the next 2-3 years (barring injury) with that rotations. When Hole Camels is your #4, your rotation is probably above average…
rustyjr
12/14/2010-5:53am at 5:53 am (UTC -4)
I agree – but in the on paper – the Phils have made themselves ainto a juggernaught, – but it is still – only paper
TRS86
12/14/2010-8:08am at 8:08 am (UTC -4)
OK so what I can’t take is a day full of how Lee took less money to be a Philly because of his love for blah blah blah.
The deal is 5 years with an easy to get 6th year. It’s basically 5 years 132.5M (after incredible buyout) or 6 years 147.5M.
NJ already pointed to this earlier.
The Yankees last offer was reportedly 6 years $132M with a player option for $16M in 7th year for a total of $148M over 7 years.
The Rangers last offer was reportedly 6 years $138M with an option for a seventh season.
So don’t give me any crap on how Lee took a cheaper offer. What he actually did was take a contract that was 2 years less and actually make the same money. So now instead of being a FA at 37 he will be a FA at 35 and will have made almost the same amount of money in return.
metsfan4decades
12/14/2010-8:14am at 8:14 am (UTC -4)
It’s about the money and it’s always all about the money. You couldn’t be more right.
kistics
12/14/2010-8:50am at 8:50 am (UTC -4)
He’s 32 now.. so 5 years would make him 37….
TRS86
12/14/2010-12:03pm at 12:03 pm (UTC -4)
My bad but you get the idea. No multiyear contracts for a 40 year old for sure.
TRS86
12/14/2010-8:16am at 8:16 am (UTC -4)
“Right now, with Lee, they have $147 million dollars of payroll tied into just 11 players. Will they be able to afford any kind of depth on that roster?”
Silva has a good article here:http://nybaseballdigest.com/?p=32095
I don’t agree with all of it but glad to see not everyone is panicking.
njstuckintx
12/14/2010-8:22am at 8:22 am (UTC -4)
What this does is 2 fold. It’ll raise the prices of beer to be astronomical and then it will reduce the number of vomitting incidents (hopefully) because they can’t afford to get that drunk. So maybe this was Philadelphia’s plan.
This does not take into account forced vomiting, unfortunately.
fongy2
12/14/2010-8:23am at 8:23 am (UTC -4)
Well….He did leave some money on the table BUT all things being equal, he still choose to play in Philly over being a Yankee or staying
in Texas, where he would have kept more of his money due to lower
taxes. Anyway this should make Mr.Alderson’s job easier since now
we really can write off the next couple/three seasons. Their rotation
combined with their core of position players pretty much assure them
the division. Easy to be pissed BUT I hate The Yanks so much I’m happy to see someone say no to them. We might hate it BUT ya have
to give The Phils credit….Playoffs aren’t even good enough for them
anymore.
fongy2
12/14/2010-8:24am at 8:24 am (UTC -4)
b/t/w….The Phils already wear pinstripes.
TRS86
12/14/2010-8:25am at 8:25 am (UTC -4)
How did he leave money on the table?
“The deal is 5 years with an easy to get 6th year. It’s basically 5 years 132.5M (after incredible buyout) or 6 years 147.5M.
NJ already pointed to this earlier.
The Yankees last offer was reportedly 6 years $132M with a player option for $16M in 7th year for a total of $148M over 7 years.
The Rangers last offer was reportedly 6 years $138M with an option for a seventh season.”
TRS86
12/14/2010-8:27am at 8:27 am (UTC -4)
Also it guarantees nothing. The Yankees have proven that. Well let me take it back it may guarantee the playoffs but once there it guarantees nothing. Conceding to a team that will be aging? Should the Redsox, Rays and Jays concede? No, they just had/have to get smarter.
fongy2
12/14/2010-8:34am at 8:34 am (UTC -4)
You get to keep ALOT more of your money in Texas than in NY or PA…..If you figures are correct. mlbtraderumors is reporting
BOTH the yank and ranger offers were higher..So…..
kistics
12/14/2010-8:58am at 8:58 am (UTC -4)
I think the he’s getting $120 / 5 year plus $27.5 vesting option 6th year (or $12.5M buyout). So Lee can get paid $132.5M over 5 years and hit the FA market at age 37. Or $147.5M over 6 years = ~$24.6M per year.
So, he did not leave any money on the table.
fongy2
12/14/2010-9:07am at 9:07 am (UTC -4)
Again, If the Rangers offered a deal which could have gone to 161 million WITH the added benefit of no State income tax
It’s not money left on the table????
kistics
12/14/2010-9:16am at 9:16 am (UTC -4)
$161M is with the vesting option. It would equal $23M per year which is about $1.6M lower than what the Phillies offered.
And I don’t think ‘no state income tax’ does not apply if you still live in Arkansas. Not so sure about that though.
TRS86
12/14/2010-9:23am at 9:23 am (UTC -4)
The income tax is something that would help Texas’s offer. However, I am sure the fact of playing in the NL could balance the 3-5M difference we are talking about. Again, what I keep looking at is the ability to get out after 5 years instead of 7. In 5 years he could still net a decent contract. In 7 years he might not be able to. So IF he stays healthy, the total amount he could make in 7 years by taking the Phillies offer substantially beats anything else on the table.
kistics
12/14/2010-9:34am at 9:34 am (UTC -4)
Agreed. In theory, he can make $132.5M over 5 years and hit the FA market for another multi-year contract.
fongy2
12/14/2010-8:35am at 8:35 am (UTC -4)
O.K. So we’ll be able to compete with them???
TRS86
12/14/2010-9:18am at 9:18 am (UTC -4)
This year? Maybe not. However, were the Rays and Sox able to compete with the Yankees?
kingman 26
12/14/2010-9:35am at 9:35 am (UTC -4)
No, the Sox did not the last two years. What kind of question is that?
So the Sox went out and played Yankee and got AGonz and Crawford.
Reality check time?
fongy2
12/14/2010-9:39am at 9:39 am (UTC -4)
The Sox can ’cause they too spend a ton of money, The Rays ’cause they have a great farm system.
Neither of these apply to us.
kistics
12/14/2010-9:47am at 9:47 am (UTC -4)
I disagree. Mets can spend as much as the BoSox.
TRS86
12/14/2010-9:52am at 9:52 am (UTC -4)
What makes you think that the Mets will no longer spend money? They are just not going to throw it out like candy at the Christmas parade. We will get a test of what they are willing to spend after next year but even then I don’t expect a shopping spree of Yankee and Philly proportion yet.
metsfan4decades
12/14/2010-8:40am at 8:40 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, blah, blah, blah.
I’m laughing at the Yankees, who thought for sure they were getting him, and feel for Ryan and the Rangers, who really wanted to keep him.
Obviously, anyone who reads here regularly enough knows I’m right up there in the Met/Philly rivalry and this doesn’t make me happy. Couldn’t agree more with Rusty though….Lee wasn’t for the Mets this year. Sandy has a plan and I’m happy with that plan.
On paper, the Phillies will be tough. If the rotation stays healthy in ’11, they are the team to beat.
Patrick Flood has a post up that echos my sentiments exactly:
‘The Four Horsemen Will Be Phillies’
http://www.patrickfloodblog.com/2010/12/the-four-horsemen-will-be-phillies.html
Good article and this one statement sums it all up.
‘However — and this is the important part — the Phillies have sold their future to go all in today.’
To all Met fans: Been there, done that, worn the tee shirt.
fongy2
12/14/2010-8:53am at 8:53 am (UTC -4)
Only thing though is that The Phils had already sold their future
regardless if they’d have signed Lee or not. So, what’s the diff???
metsfan4decades
12/14/2010-9:25am at 9:25 am (UTC -4)
You are correct. It’s just one more long term expensive contract to an aging player to add to the pile.
wannybackstra
12/14/2010-9:10am at 9:10 am (UTC -4)
What must Ha;;aday be thinking after giving the Phils a 3 yr and 60 m discount?
Anyway, am I reading TRS’s comments to imply that this move doesn’t cement the Phils as a WS favorite? Of course, nothing is guaranteed. But as Sandy says, the idea is to increase probabilities. If this doesn’t increase the Phillies’ probability exponentially then I’m not sure what does.
And please don’t let anyone utter anymore nonsense like last year’s “phillies will have no bench” crap.
TRS86
12/14/2010-9:20am at 9:20 am (UTC -4)
Oh no, of course it increases their chances. I like the move for the Phillies, they are built to win now and if they get a WS or two in the next 3-4 years it will be worth it. However, long-term I think it could be a disaster for them.
kistics
12/14/2010-9:30am at 9:30 am (UTC -4)
Here’s a thing. Yes, this move will make the Phillies “a team to beat” in NL by a lot in short term. I would say the next 2-3 years, Mets, Braves, Marlins, Nats would compete for a WC spot assuming everyone stays healhy. Even if the Mets spend all their available $$ (IF they are available) on SPs next offseason, it would be hard to catch up to the Phillies rotation.
So the question is, can we be patient with Sandy & co for the next 2-3 years until the Phillies are older, breaking down and stuck with huge payroll?
TRS86
12/14/2010-9:32am at 9:32 am (UTC -4)
I think at this point we don’t have a choice. We can still compete with smart moves and player development, the same way the Rays and Sox (and if you think about it the Braves) have all done.
kistics
12/14/2010-9:45am at 9:45 am (UTC -4)
You are right. I guess the RedSox are a good example.
kingman 26
12/14/2010-9:32am at 9:32 am (UTC -4)
Very disappointing.
But again, the Phils obtain Halladay and he is lights out. We obtain Santana and he lives on the DL.
The Phils obtain Lidge who leads them to a title. We obtain KRod.
The Phils develop Howard, Utley, and Rollins, and we develop, well, you get the idea.
Get used to looking at their backs.
When was the last time ANY team had a threesome like this?
We can fantasize about their players aging; it doesn’t even matter.
With average seasons for their top three, they win 90–95 games easily. Look at what the Giants just did.
This cements the Phils as division and pennant favorites for the next 2 years at the very least.
But I am thrilled the Yanks missed out on Lee and Crawford.
metsfan4decades
12/14/2010-9:36am at 9:36 am (UTC -4)
‘When was the last time ANY team had a threesome like this?’
The Braves of the ’90s. And how many WS did they win?
kingman 26
12/14/2010-9:43am at 9:43 am (UTC -4)
No, the Braves did not have a threesome like this.
Maddux of course is their equal, but were Smoltz or Glavine as good as Oswalt or Lee when he is on? I think not.
And the Braves won one title, FIVE pennants, and made the playoffs 14 straight years.
Who else can match that other than the Bankee$?
Please.
Prismo
12/14/2010-9:45am at 9:45 am (UTC -4)
Your memory is distorted. The Braves rotation was SICK.
metsfan4decades
12/14/2010-10:08am at 10:08 am (UTC -4)
I agree, or that was certainly my impression of that Braves rotation back in the 90s….
TRS86
12/14/2010-9:48am at 9:48 am (UTC -4)
Not sure. When Smoltz was in his prime I think he was no doubt as good as Lee. I also think that Glavine was comparable to Oswalt. Check out Glavine’s stats from 91–93.
Again lets not quibble here though. It’s really impossible to compare these teams as it was really a different era. There is no doubt the Phillies have amassed a great team and all the pressure in the world will be upon them.
My question remains, if they win the WS will you say they bought the WS?>
kistics
12/14/2010-10:03am at 10:03 am (UTC -4)
Does it matter if they bought the WS or not? The point is that they will be a serious contender for the next 2-3 years if not more…
TRS86
12/14/2010-10:11am at 10:11 am (UTC -4)
Not to me it doesn’t but it did to Kingman when the Yanks won in 2009.
Prismo
12/14/2010-9:44am at 9:44 am (UTC -4)
Braves 1998 rotation murders the current Phillies rotation.
From espn (awhile ago):
1. 1998 Atlanta Braves
Greg Maddux (18-9, 2.22), Tom Glavine (20-6, 2.47), Denny Neagle (16-11, 3.55), Kevin Millwood (17-8, 4.08), John Smoltz (17-3, 2.90)
You could easily argue that the 1996 or 1997 rotation was better, but the difference would be marginal. So let’s look at 1998. The Braves’ starting five combined for an ERA of 2.97 — a stunning 1.27 lower than the NL average. They were stingy with hits, walks and homers. Maddux and Glavine had two of the top 10 pitching seasons in the history of the Braves franchise. Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz finished 1-3-6 in ERA. Glavine, the NL’s only 20-game winner, captured the NL Cy Young Award, and Maddux and Smoltz tied for fourth in the voting. All five starters were among the top 10 in wins.
Prismo
12/14/2010-9:51am at 9:51 am (UTC -4)
All the Mets have to do is make the playoffs – that’s just as well done with the wild card as with the division winner. Then, anything can happen in a 5 or 7 game series.
Prismo
12/14/2010-9:52am at 9:52 am (UTC -4)
Meant to post this on it’s own.
TRS86
12/14/2010-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
And with the coming of a new playoff format that first series might be a 3 game series. Of course if the Phillies have the best record they most likely would not have to play in that one.
TRS86
12/14/2010-9:37am at 9:37 am (UTC -4)
2 things. I agree they are the clear division and pennant favorites but I thought they were this year and that did not matter in the playoffs. Perhaps this pushes them ahead of the Giants rotation. I still think with smart moves the Mets can compete with them in 2012 and beyond. Next year it’s about change and if that leads us to compete for the WC then so be it.
Next, I asked this of you earlier. Does this cheapen what the Phillies have done? Do you now look at them in the same light as the Yankees instead of this gritty supernatural heart consisting team? They will by far have the highest payroll in the NL. So much so that the difference between them and 2nd place in the NL will be larger than the difference from NY to 2nd place in the AL. If they win this year will you go on a rampage about how they bought their WS?
kingman 26
12/14/2010-9:48am at 9:48 am (UTC -4)
I did answer and my answer it that partially, they have begin to do that.
Kind of like how the Mets tried to with Pedro, Beltran, Delgado, Johan, Wagner, Bay, KRod….the difference is they have not failed miserably.
It is depressing that this is what baseball is becoming.
The Yanks, Phils, and Red Sox buy everyone. Sad.
TRS86
12/14/2010-9:56am at 9:56 am (UTC -4)
Thing is Kingman our payroll with those guys would not come close to what the Phillies and Yanks are doing.
fongy2
12/14/2010-9:40am at 9:40 am (UTC -4)
Threesome???…How ’bout foursome???
metsfan4decades
12/14/2010-9:33am at 9:33 am (UTC -4)
Just read Martino’s latest post on the Lee signing. I thought he’d go down the road of comparing the Mets/Phillies FO and how the Phillies do what’s necessary to win.
Instead, he’s questioning why Lee didn’t sign with the Yankees and goes on to explain why he thinks it’s a poor idea that he did not:
‘The Phils’ lineup is reduced, due to age and attrition. Jayson Werth, Lee’s good friend and the team’s only righthanded power hitter, is gone, having decided to accept a Publishers Clearing House check for $126 million from the Washington Nationals. Infielders Chase Utley and Jimmy Rollins are aging, and could not make it through last season without suffering serious and nagging injuries. This month, centerfielder Shane Victorino turned 30, the last Phils starter to cross the precarious boundary. Decline awaits in a few years, if not sooner.
Unlike the Yankees, the Phils will not be able to buy their way out of a rebuilding phase. Had Lee signed with New York, he would have received the implicit promise of $200 million payrolls every season, enough to purchase playoff contention despite an abundance of aging regulars.
Derek Jeter can’t play shortstop in a year or two? Move him somewhere else, and sign an All-Star replacement. CC’s arm is dead after all those innings? Well, when is King Felix a free agent?
The Yankees would have given Lee not just more money, but the security of knowing he would not ever be stuck for long on an irrelevant team.’
******************************
He’s certainly pegged the Yankees MO, didn’t he?
TRS86
12/14/2010-9:39am at 9:39 am (UTC -4)
It’s valid points but ones I think the Phillies will have to worry about in 2012 and beyond. By then they MAY be celebrating another WS win.
kingman 26
12/14/2010-9:39am at 9:39 am (UTC -4)
Fantasyland.
A starting three of Halladay, Oswalt, and Lee? With Hamels number 4?
That is so many universes ahead of the Yanks–or anyone else–it is barely calculable.
Victorino is 30, so he is about to decline?
Wow. How silly.
TRS86
12/14/2010-9:44am at 9:44 am (UTC -4)
I don’t think his point was that Vicki would decline next year. Only that the Phillies have invested everything into the short-term with a team that is all over 30 with many having nagging injury issues. I think his overall point is valid that IF any of these injury issues catch up with them OR after 2-3 years they could be in trouble and perhaps Lee at the end of his contract will be using hindsight because the Phillies would not be able to buy their way out of trouble if a disaster happens. Either way I am sure he and most of us agree that they have done whatever it takes to make themselves the clear favorite in the short-term.
fongy2
12/14/2010-9:56am at 9:56 am (UTC -4)
Short term??? 2,3 yrs??? Not in Pro sports today.
How many Mgr,Head Coaches,GMs ,players, etc don’t even get
3 yrs anymore before they’re looking for a new gig???
Further, “short term” sounds nice BUT considering this Philly run started five yrs ago, adding another two,three yrs to it
isn’t exactly “short term”.
fongy2
12/14/2010-9:45am at 9:45 am (UTC -4)
Agreed….As usual. Also, Utley,Rollins&Howard are all in their
EARLY 30s…NOT…LATE 30s….So….
Look, ya have to give them credit….They want to Win…..And not
just play “meaningful games in September”…..They want Championships!!!…Looking at The Giants Pitching AND The teams The Yanks and Sox put together, the Phils did what they have to in order to give thenselves the best chance TO WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP. If Omar had been more ballsy in this manner 3,4 yrs ago we might have a ring….And he might still have a job!
kingman 26
12/14/2010-9:53am at 9:53 am (UTC -4)
The same people who have been saying the Phils are aging for the last two years will continue saying it until they are right.
In 4–5 years.
fongy2
12/14/2010-9:57am at 9:57 am (UTC -4)
Exactly!….. Later Buddy, got to hit the road.
Good day all!
kingman 26
12/14/2010-10:00am at 10:00 am (UTC -4)
You too!
Off to Chi-town for biz later, so see you next week!
metsfan4decades
12/14/2010-10:13am at 10:13 am (UTC -4)
My point on the Martino post I referenced was more what the Yankees do – and have done – for decades. –Not what the Phillies just did.
Martino is making the point that all good players should sign with the Yankees b/c only the Yankees can sustain a playoff contending team every year. They just buy what they need when they need it.
He’s saying the Phillies are all in now, but when it all starts to fall apart, they won’t be opening up their wallets like the Yankees always do.
Was just a comment on how the Yankees are perceived as being in a class of their own in MLB.
kistics
12/14/2010-10:01am at 10:01 am (UTC -4)
The thing about the Phillies payroll is each year, one or two of their big salaries are coming off their books.
After 2011, Oswalt, Lidge, Ibanez, Madson (~$45M)
After 2012, Blanton, Polanco, Hamels (~27M)
These numbers don’t consider Rollins and Vicky coming off the books in 2011 and 2012.
Amaro did a pretty decent job….
TRS86
12/14/2010-10:10am at 10:10 am (UTC -4)
No doubt he did. Don’t forget that you also have to eventually re-sign some players too.
kistics
12/14/2010-10:18am at 10:18 am (UTC -4)
I’m not sure if they would re-sign any of the players above. I wouldn’t if I were Amaro. Maybe Hamels.
TRS86
12/14/2010-10:23am at 10:23 am (UTC -4)
What about Utley after 2013? Halladay?
kistics
12/14/2010-10:32am at 10:32 am (UTC -4)
Utley probably yes, but he’s already getting paid pretty high and I would assume, his new contract would not be much different or lower than what he makes currently.
TRS86
12/14/2010-12:02pm at 12:02 pm (UTC -4)
15M, considering the market that’s a bargain.
kistics
12/14/2010-12:40pm at 12:40 pm (UTC -4)
he’s going to be 34 by the end of his current contract. $15M per tear is not much a bargain
TRS86
12/14/2010-12:52pm at 12:52 pm (UTC -4)
For a 2nd baseman with his production it is. Who would they replace him with if he demanded the moon?
kistics
12/14/2010-1:46pm at 1:46 pm (UTC -4)
They would try to sign Luis Castillo for a lot less.
saltygary
12/14/2010-9:53am at 9:53 am (UTC -4)
What an incredible rotation. 4 out of 5 nights most teams will not be able to match an equally talented starter against the Phils. Before the game starts Phili will have the edge. Playoff series, forget about it. I know their offense is “aging” but they just insured that in a playoff series the Phils just need 3 runs to win a game.
Also I wouldn’t get too hung up with ‘aging”. Mo Rivera has been aging for the last decade, how has that worked out. Utley will be healthier along with Howard. Rollins is tailing off but compared to other teams, he is still an upper level SS. Dominic Brown will eventually make fans forget about Worth. Ibanez is in his final year so that will be money freed up. Also this allows the team to go out and trade someone like Hamels who is 27, makes 6m a year and is not a free agent until 2013. Phils are stacked and in an excellant position for some time. Kudos to them.
njstuckintx
12/14/2010-10:16am at 10:16 am (UTC -4)
So, other than the sky falling and all that…
I still stick to my guns (Yee Haw!) and say the Mets need to be active in looking to acquire Garza. Santana (get well soon buddy!), Garza, Pelf or Niese is not quite Halladay, Lee, Oswalt, but it does stand a punchers chance in a fight.
TRS86
12/14/2010-10:24am at 10:24 am (UTC -4)
While again it would be great, I think the Mets need to show great patience and resist any reactionary moves. Something I think Sandy will be good at.
njstuckintx
12/14/2010-10:26am at 10:26 am (UTC -4)
I can understand how that seems like a reactionary move, but that is a move with 2011, 2012 and even 2013 in mind. That is a planning for the future move.
Shelling out big money for Pavano, now that is a reactionary move. Or a 2 year contract for decent amount of money to Webb, that would be a reactionary move. Trading for Garza is good move all around.
kistics
12/14/2010-10:34am at 10:34 am (UTC -4)
I agree. But who do the Mets trade away for Garza? It would probably require Ike. I would still do that though.
njstuckintx
12/14/2010-10:39am at 10:39 am (UTC -4)
I’d hold onto Ike for sure. If it required Mejia… I’d do it.
TRS86
12/14/2010-10:35am at 10:35 am (UTC -4)
It COULD be depending on how much you have to give up. If you have to sacrifice your best prospects for Garza is it worth it in the long-term or should you wait until 2012 and trade then for the next Garza when you are more ready.
njstuckintx
12/14/2010-10:44am at 10:44 am (UTC -4)
In an ideal world, yeah, you hold onto all your prospects. But Garza is a proven commodity (in the AL East of all places), under control and not crazy priced, Trading say Mejia, Havens and a low A ball guy may do it. If it did, I’d pull that trigger. Mejia and Havens COULD be great. They could also be the next (insert met’s flop here).
TRS86
12/14/2010-10:51am at 10:51 am (UTC -4)
You also have to factor in re-signing Garza to a deal in 2-3 deals. Again, I would do the above package as well but not sure the Rays would.
oleosmirf
12/14/2010-10:19am at 10:19 am (UTC -4)
this Lee signing further emphasizes that all Mets decisions for 2011 should be done with the future in mind.
that means keeping Emaus and/or Turner over Castillo and not trading guys like Niese, Davis, Pagan so our SP can be better to compete with the Phillies in 2011.
TRS86
12/14/2010-10:25am at 10:25 am (UTC -4)
Agreed.
Again, if we happen to compete this year because of youth and over-achievement then so be it but no reactionary moves.
oleosmirf
12/14/2010-10:36am at 10:36 am (UTC -4)
however, I do believe they need to sign Chris Young even if it means spending 1 mil more than they want b/c if he returns to form (which given his 3 starts at the end of the year isnt improbable) he could be very important for us
TRS86
12/14/2010-10:51am at 10:51 am (UTC -4)
No doubt.
Prismo
12/14/2010-10:37am at 10:37 am (UTC -4)
Let me paint a picture:
With Sandy Alderson (the general) now in charge of the organization, the remainder of the organization steps up. Terry Collins’ strong leadership empowers the formerly underwhelming and under-enthused roster to perform to the top of their individual abilities.
Dickey continues his strong pitching, Pelfrey pitches like he should with an ERA in the low-mid 3′s, Niese continues to improve, and Gee steps up and pitches adequately for the back of the rotation.
The young hitters step up as well. Thole and Ike become solid supports in the lineup, Reyes has a bounce-back year, Wright continues to be one of the best 3B in the league, Beltran is healthy most of the year and produces, Bay returns to form with 30HR, and Angel Pagan continues his excellent play in RF. Even Daniel Murphy (or perhaps Emaus) is adequate at second base.
The Mets are hanging in there throughout the summer. Yes, they’re in second place, but only 5 games behind the Phillies. The wild card is in the picture.
But then Johan returns! He lifts the entire team, organization, and fanbase, and the Mets come storming back into the division crown picture. They overcome the Phillies in the last week of the season, and the Phillies are left home during the playoffs as the Cardinals win the wild card for the NL Central.
Phillies fans are aghast with disbelief as their $165MM+ team fails to reach the playoffs, unearthed by the formerly-mocked Mets. Phillies fans either call for Manuel and Amaro’s head, or just forget about baseball and head back to rooting for the other choker Philadelphia teams.
(we can dream, can’t we?)
njstuckintx
12/14/2010-10:47am at 10:47 am (UTC -4)
Ceetar, is that you with Prismo’s picture?
saltygary
12/14/2010-10:55am at 10:55 am (UTC -4)
^^ LOL I didn’t see your post before posting mine…
saltygary
12/14/2010-10:54am at 10:54 am (UTC -4)
OK Ceetar settle down.
Prismo
12/14/2010-11:01am at 11:01 am (UTC -4)
Hey, do I think this is going to happen? Probably not.
But!!! But – stranger things HAVE happened.
Lest you forget the Rays went from 66 wins in 2007 to 97 wins in 2008 and a World Series appearance. If I told you before the ’08 season that would happen, I would’ve been shipped to the moon.
Mets have to go from 79 wins to low-mid 90s to make the playoffs. Much less of a stretch. It’s possible. Not probable, but possible!
oleosmirf
12/14/2010-11:07am at 11:07 am (UTC -4)
the Rays also stockpiled top draft picks for 10 years.
Prismo
12/14/2010-11:09am at 11:09 am (UTC -4)
Stockpiling draft picks doesn’t get you a 31 win surplus in just one season. They had the talent, and things just clicked. The Mets also have a lot of talent, things just have to click and they’ll at least be in WC contention.
TRS86
12/14/2010-12:02pm at 12:02 pm (UTC -4)
Could we also use the Padres, while they ultimately did not make it, as a great example? Perhaps the Rangers and Giants even?
oleosmirf
12/14/2010-12:05pm at 12:05 pm (UTC -4)
good drafting/player development yields good teams. easier said then done but the formula is pretty simple and 100% accurate.
TRS86
12/14/2010-12:32pm at 12:32 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah no doubt but so does wise use of resources. A combination of both can lead you to what the Phillies have now.
gategem
12/14/2010-2:32pm at 2:32 pm (UTC -4)
LOL Now let’s see. The Mets will be in the hunt for the WC when Robert Redford will appear from seemingly another dimension with a bat carved by his father from a tree stuck by lightening and hit a 800 ft homerun every at bat for 400 at bats and the Mets will win it all. LOL
kingman 26
12/14/2010-1:53pm at 1:53 pm (UTC -4)
I guess after thinking about it some more I do still largely agree with Oleo.
We need to think about the next 3–5 years, not just this year.
I would only trade Pagan in a package if we could get Garza or someone similar, as he is young.
I would only trade Ike in a package for Fielder as he is young.
I would love to trade Beltran for Kazmir. Kazmir is young and could still have many good years in him. There is zero chance Beltran is a Met beyond 2010.
But I have zero interest in the team getting absolutely any older/injured/mediocre players other than maybe someone like Young if he is reasonably priced.
Is the Phils’ signing Lee a blessing in disguise? That might be going too far.
But if we play our cards right, and some of our youth movement seriously develops, we can be ready to step into the breach when the Phils begin to decline in 2-3 years, and be ready to dominate for a while. Exactly as they did after our one-year run of excellence in 2006.
Not saying we cannot be ready to contend in 2012; we can. But I really think this move puts the Sandy plan into even more acceptable and relevant territory.
Can this team contend for the division in 2010? No chance, any more than they could in 2009. Can they compete for a wild card? Very, very unlikely without rebound years from EVERY injured player, and serious development from Ike/Niese/Thole/Parnell.
But in 2012 we can be relevant again.
With or without Jose.
kingman 26
12/14/2010-1:55pm at 1:55 pm (UTC -4)
Of course I meant 2011/2010….not that it matters….
oleosmirf
12/14/2010-2:10pm at 2:10 pm (UTC -4)
i actually expect us to be in the playoff hunt in 2012. besides losing Beltran, the rest of the contracts coming off the books are dead weight. we might not win the division but i still see 88+ wins in 2012 to be a reasonable expectation.
TRS86
12/14/2010-2:13pm at 2:13 pm (UTC -4)
I still think 88 wins is not out of the question next year, it’s just unlikely. I see this team as a 78-88 win team as currently constructed, it could be better or worse by 2-3 games but largely that’s the range we are in.
kingman 26
12/14/2010-2:55pm at 2:55 pm (UTC -4)
You think 88 wins is possible every year.
It’s not.
TRS86
12/15/2010-8:16am at 8:16 am (UTC -4)
Sure it is and it was last year as well.
kistics
12/14/2010-2:13pm at 2:13 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. If the Mets catch couple breaks with Phillies injuries, I’m sure they’ll have a shot at winning the division as well.
We can always play the game on paper, but if that’s the case, Giants would not be the WS champ this year.
gategem
12/14/2010-2:37pm at 2:37 pm (UTC -4)
But the Mets’ pitching staff in no way (other than they put their pants on one leg at a time and throw a baseball) resembles the Giants’ pitching staff. So the comparison with the Giants is not valid.
kistics
12/14/2010-2:43pm at 2:43 pm (UTC -4)
Not comparing with the Giants. I’m just saying that there is a reason why the game is actually played on the field rather than on paper.
kingman 26
12/14/2010-2:57pm at 2:57 pm (UTC -4)
Well, comparing our chances to a team with Lincecum, Cain, and Wilson might be fun, but it is not real world-based.
kistics
12/14/2010-3:16pm at 3:16 pm (UTC -4)
Again, I’m not comparing the Mets with the Giants. What I’m saying is that on paper, Phillies and Yankees were better team than Giants and Rangers. But the game is played on the field not on paper.
If the Mets get sign and ace and a big bat next offseason AND healthy Johan, Reyes, and Bay, they have pretty decent chance against the Phillies. Especially if certain things break in favor of the Mets, it’s not impossible to win the division in 2012.
oleosmirf
12/14/2010-3:42pm at 3:42 pm (UTC -4)
I agree although I dont foresee the Mets going after a big bat next offseason. If one of the prospects isnt ready maybe we see Cody Ross, JD Drew, Josh Willingham, Jason Kubel, Michael Cuddyer on a 1 year only deal but you would think one of Duda, F-Mart, Kirk or Ratliff will be ready to step in by August.
metsfan4decades
12/14/2010-3:42pm at 3:42 pm (UTC -4)
Sandy Alderson appeared unmoved by the Lee deal: ““Honestly, I don’t think it affects our long-term thinking as much as might expect.”
You go, Sandy.
He’s right thought. Didn’t matter if the Phillies signed the next coming of Cy Young. Alderson’s got a plan and he’s sticking to it, at least in the short term. Past deals/signings have kind of handcuffed this team in 2011 anyway so the Mets couldn’t react to these signings no matter what NL east team does this off season.
It’s going forward after 2011, and not just the major league starting 25 but drafts, minor league development, prospect handling, etc. that will determine if this team is in competition from year to year.
wannybackstra
12/14/2010-5:29pm at 5:29 pm (UTC -4)
Anyone still criticizing Heyman for reporting on a mysterious 3rd team in the Lee sweepstakes?
Mr North Jersey
12/14/2010-6:35pm at 6:35 pm (UTC -4)
LoL, let me guess were they saying he was trying to drum up some chatter due to it being a slow day?
khmustache
12/14/2010-6:46pm at 6:46 pm (UTC -4)
i have been trying to digest this since last night around 11. i gotta say, i understand that the mets just didn’t make sense, plus he obviously wanted to avoid nyc, but damn if i’m not in a horrendous mood because of it. i wish the mets could act like they were in the same class as the filles, yanks and red sox. it kills me that they’re not
Mr North Jersey
12/14/2010-7:52pm at 7:52 pm (UTC -4)
Time, give it some time.
saltygary
12/14/2010-9:11pm at 9:11 pm (UTC -4)
They tried that and made poor decisions. Once the mess is fixed they will be aggressive again. We just need to let this play out.
hazmet
12/14/2010-8:02pm at 8:02 pm (UTC -4)
Maybe it’s my acceptance that this is a year to see how the kids develop while vanquishing expiring contracts but this deal really doesn’t bother me to the extent I thought it would. Yes, the Phil’s have the best rotation I’ve seen in some time but it is on paper and one never knows how injuries can play into any season or the unknowns of each teams bullpens year to year. I’m more concerned to see how our team matures while some pieces in their walk year try to post career years to line up a big pay day. Each season takes on it’s own character, who would have thought last year we’d be saying “man those World Champion SF Giants” at this time. I’m not expecting such grand thoughts for the orange & blue, for starter’s I’ll take sound fundamental baseball and go from there in 2011.
TRS86
12/15/2010-8:18am at 8:18 am (UTC -4)
Agreed.