I keep reading how the Mets seemingly must sign a Loogy. Beimel is a hot name. Yeah the guy that should never ever face a RH batter and has decent numbers vs LH. OK he is more than decent over the years because he is if nothing else consistent. However does his
| .221 | .275 | .379 | .653 |
vs LHH out weigh his
| .329 | .388 | .474 | .862 |
Obviously the Mets will undoubtedly add a LHRP.
But lets take a look at another guy who is not only not LH but barely RH.
Elmer “Fudd” Dessens
2009:
| Split | PA | AB | R | H | 2B | HR | BB | SO | ||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| vs RHB as RHP | 64 | 57 | 6 | 13 | 3 | 2 | 5 | 5 | .228 | .286 | .386 | .672 |
| vs LHB as RHP | 66 | 57 | 8 | 11 | 3 | 3 | 5 | 9 | .193 | .277 | .404 | .680 |
| Split | PA | AB | R | H | 2B | HR | BB | SO | ||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| vs RHB as RHP | 132 | 115 | 17 | 28 | 6 | 3 | 10 | 10 | .243 | .318 | .391 | .709 |
| vs LHB as RHP | 62 | 56 | 5 | 13 | 4 | 1 | 6 | 6 | .232 | .306 | .357 | .664 |
The Fudd really has gotten a bad rap in Mets circles. The guy while not a setup guy has been forced to be relied upon for 2 years and has done a great job. Forget Beimel and bring him back. Saved 1M.
Now back to other options for the pen. We have listed many and the Mets are actually in a good position as there are still a ton of names out there and the market is shrinking daily.
I still say the best option is to invest slightly more money on Fuentes and then be able to possibly trade from strength later on. I understand the concerns about SP but honestly in this market, who are you saving the money for?
I hear all the talk about how the new regime will have foresight and will not be fooled into traditional thinking. If this is true then we shall see no LOOOOOGies.
78 comments
Ceetar
1/3/2011-11:35am at 11:35 am (UTC -4)
You shouldn’t really need to ‘sign’ specialists. That stuff should evolve over april and may. “Oh, this guy struggles to get the righties out” so you use him where best suited, against lefties. (Instead of the “Let me make up a lot of definitions and try to pigeon hole guys in those roles no matter how they’re best suited” approach) If one guy’s got a great GB rate, you use him with runners on. If someone’s got a high walk rate, but is still successful, maybe you give him fresh innings only.
You could obviously expand this to if someone is lights out awesome, make him the closer. That’s not going to happen on the Mets, or likely any other team. However, (and Collins has stated things this way) the 9th inning isn’t always the most important, and if you’ve got a guy that’s lights out, you use him when the game is at it’s most crucial, even if that’s the 6th with 2nd and 3rd.
TRS86
1/3/2011-11:43am at 11:43 am (UTC -4)
Uh I think I agree.
Ceetar
1/3/2011-11:49am at 11:49 am (UTC -4)
yes, you did right the post after all
I said this before about the SP. Sign the best pitchers you can find. The most talented, the best pitchers, the hardest throwers, whatever. Best players. Let Collins worry about how best to use them. Don’t sign guys because you think they can fill some small niche, or you can hide their suckiness by pitching them in big parks, or against only lefties, or whatever.
stickguy
1/3/2011-12:16pm at 12:16 pm (UTC -4)
as long as collins can actually figure out how to best use guys based on more than what arm they throw with. Unlike a certain ex-manager named Jerry.
kistics
1/3/2011-12:26pm at 12:26 pm (UTC -4)
But every manager has the same philosophy, no?
stickguy
1/3/2011-12:29pm at 12:29 pm (UTC -4)
Well, can’t say I watch other managers extensively, but I doubt all of them are as obsessed as Jerry, and also may pay enough attention to know that some RHPs are actually better vs. LH batters. Stuff like that.
kistics
1/3/2011-12:32pm at 12:32 pm (UTC -4)
That would be refreshing….
TRS86
1/3/2011-12:02pm at 12:02 pm (UTC -4)
What about some in house guys?
A guy like Roy Merritt who tore through AA last year, struggled in only 4 innings in AAA and been pretty dominant in Winter league. He’s 25 so it’s not like we are rushing him.
You could throw guys like Niesen and Michael O’Connor in there as well.
Ceetar
1/3/2011-12:14pm at 12:14 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t buy a lot into “rushing” guys hurting them anyway.
in house guys certainly would be candidates I would think. So many teams struggle to hit guys they haven’t seen before, I doubt many scout the 8th/9th reliever on depth charts. Some guys have good stuff. why not use them?
Ceetar
1/3/2011-12:15pm at 12:15 pm (UTC -4)
It’s these little changes in philosophies that I’m looking forward to most. Hopefully they’ll promote and use guys more often rather than stick with whatt hey have due to some misguided sense of hoping they figure it out.
kistics
1/3/2011-12:17pm at 12:17 pm (UTC -4)
How about this guy?
’09 against LHBs
80 ABs, .200/.278/.313/.590
’10 against LHBs
42 ABs, .214/.411(WOW)/.452/.863
TRS86
1/3/2011-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
OK I give. Who was that and those /// are not very good after the .214.
kistics
1/3/2011-12:33pm at 12:33 pm (UTC -4)
He’s the most hated guy on the team….
stickguy
1/3/2011-12:36pm at 12:36 pm (UTC -4)
ollie, wow. Man, did he suck in 2010.
kistics
1/3/2011-12:37pm at 12:37 pm (UTC -4)
But his numbers were great in ’09 against LHBs.
stickguy
1/3/2011-12:43pm at 12:43 pm (UTC -4)
but he’s Ollie.
can you imagine an early season game at home, 8th inning, mets up by a run with 2 guys on, and Ollie comes in to give up a bomb to Howard? He might not make it out alive!
metsfan4decades
1/3/2011-12:47pm at 12:47 pm (UTC -4)
You said it. He’d be more hated and booed than Heilman was at the end of his tenure here.
kistics
1/3/2011-12:47pm at 12:47 pm (UTC -4)
I agree that the fans current hatred is going to be a big problem. But I also think he should be looked at as one of the option. I mean you are paying for him, might as well get some value out of him.
stickguy
1/3/2011-1:03pm at 1:03 pm (UTC -4)
who knows, but I don’t really see this lefty specialist idea being a viable option. If he is in ST, he will be competing for a rotation spot, and if he doesn’t win it, he will be gone.
TRS86
1/3/2011-1:07pm at 1:07 pm (UTC -4)
Not sure anyone can say that yet Stick. Who knows how the new regime will approach this?
kistics
1/3/2011-12:36pm at 12:36 pm (UTC -4)
yeah numbers in ’10 are not very good. But I think it was more of a byproduct of the situation that he was in. And he just didn’t give a crap. But I wonder if he can be re-discovered or re-establish himself as the left handed specialist.
stickguy
1/3/2011-12:26pm at 12:26 pm (UTC -4)
I think that other guy that had a big year in the minors (and got added to the 40 man) will be in the mix. Manny Alverez?
I also have no problem with using older SP prospects (live arms, but not top shelf SP prospects, meaning not Mejia) in the pen either. Get them experience, and they can also move back into starting if the need arises.
Like Ceetar said, get creative with how to best use the assets in the organization, without setting back the future (which you could argue they did with Mejia).
Why not take guys that have issues (say no 3rd pitch, good stuff but not enough stamina) and see if they can handle 5-10 innings per week.
spending a little extra on a more “proven” guy that can more reasonably handle 8th inning/spare closer duties makes sense But if not, just collect the best arms they can, roll them out, and be ready with replacements if they falter.
TRS86
1/3/2011-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
Problem is after looking at the roster we really don’t have any of those guys who are LH.
kingman 26
1/3/2011-12:26pm at 12:26 pm (UTC -4)
Well, I could not agree more.
As I have said repeatedly, OOGYs are the worst members of any pitching staff.
Not good enough to start. Not good enough to close. Not good enough to be 8th inning setup men. Not good or durable enough to be long man.
The worst member of your bullpen with the least overall value. Feliciano was good as a LOOGY, but he was not good enough to start, to close, to be 8th inning guy, or to be long man, as he could never go 5 innings or get RHBs out consistently.
OOGYs are about the 20th-22nd most important man on a 25-man baseball team.
And far, far, FAR from the Mets’ current priority list.
Thank you, and have a nice day.
TRS86
1/3/2011-12:30pm at 12:30 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. I keep hearing about how the Mets have tons of holes yet for some reason all these sites think they should focus on OOGY’s. Yeah just as much as they should focus on 4th OF.
kistics
1/3/2011-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
Not sure I agree with you on the importance of OOGY. Or a situational guy.
Past couple seasons, when the game is on the line and you are facing Ryan Howard, who were you most comfortable with? Outside of Johan and KRod, I would have to say Feliciano. I agree that one should not be a LOOGY or ROOGY based on which arm they pitch with, but I think it’s important to have a situational guy that can dominate either side of the plate.
stickguy
1/3/2011-12:35pm at 12:35 pm (UTC -4)
be radical. if it is the 8th inning say, bring in your closer.
kistics
1/3/2011-12:37pm at 12:37 pm (UTC -4)
I agree. But what if it’s 6th or 7th?
TRS86
1/3/2011-12:41pm at 12:41 pm (UTC -4)
Is there any proof that Howard would do better against say Merritt than Beimel who he has owned?
TRS86
1/3/2011-12:42pm at 12:42 pm (UTC -4)
.500 .647 1.250 1.897 last 3 years vs Beimel.
kingman 26
1/3/2011-1:24pm at 1:24 pm (UTC -4)
LOL!
TRS86
1/3/2011-12:40pm at 12:40 pm (UTC -4)
The point is to go get a guy that can do both reasonably well instead of a guy that can only do one side a little better.
Lets use good ole Fudd for an example again. As a Met in 32 PA vs the Phillies he has produced this line:
.143 .194 .143 .336
In 19 PA vs LH:
.111 .158 .111 .269
Yeah lets go get Beimel:
In 81PA vs LH:
.352 .432 .549 .981
In 76 total PA vs the Phillies the last 3 years:
.323 .421 .538 .960
Seriously, why do we want that?
kistics
1/3/2011-12:46pm at 12:46 pm (UTC -4)
I’m not disagreeing with you on the fact Dessens is a better choice than Biemel. But what I’m saying is that they need a pitcher who can dominate one (or either) side of the plate at any situations. And I think that is a very valuable piece of your BP. Not the 22nd important guy on the team.
TRS86
1/3/2011-12:54pm at 12:54 pm (UTC -4)
But what I think we are saying is those guys are not as good as you might think and actually limit you on what you can do in other situations.
Again, look at Beimel’s stats vs Philly LH. The guy is considered a LOOGY but those stats are isolated.
How many more wins over the course of a season does a “GREAT” OOGY get you? Name a “GREAT” OOGY.
kistics
1/3/2011-1:07pm at 1:07 pm (UTC -4)
I see what you are saying. You are saying that you’d rather have 3 GOOD versatile (can pitch to both sides of the plate effectively) than to have 1 VERY GOOD OOGY that would cost more money.
Hmm… I would agree with that only because it would cost less money to get a guy like Dessens. But ideally, I would want a very good OOGY.
TRS86
1/3/2011-1:08pm at 1:08 pm (UTC -4)
What happens when you have used that very good OOGY in the 6th inning and have a bunch of crap to follow him in the rest of the 6th-9th?
TRS86
1/3/2011-1:09pm at 1:09 pm (UTC -4)
Next question though. Name a “GREAT” OOGY?
kistics
1/3/2011-1:21pm at 1:21 pm (UTC -4)
Great?
hmm… I guess “GREAT” OOGY would not really exist, because if you are “GREAT”, then you would have other roles than just being strictly an OOGY.
But I thought Feliciano was very good.
TRS86
1/3/2011-1:46pm at 1:46 pm (UTC -4)
Exactly. So our point is that an OOGY is still around #22 on your team. Even if you have a VERY good one, which there are not many of those either.
kistics
1/3/2011-1:50pm at 1:50 pm (UTC -4)
But you would say that Feliciano was #22 on the team?
TRS86
1/3/2011-2:01pm at 2:01 pm (UTC -4)
On a good team? Yeah.
kingman 26
1/3/2011-1:30pm at 1:30 pm (UTC -4)
I think that the whole “handedness” issue will eventually go the way of judging players by BA and pitchers by wins. Outdated and overstated.
Did the 1969 or 1980s Mets have OOGYs? No, they just had guys who could get batters out.
OOGYs are invariably CRAP pitchers who cannot perform another role on a pitching staff.
Personally, I cannot get excited about having or not having a guy who sucks so much he cannot start, close, setup, or be long man. Which is the category ALL OOGYs fit into.
Do great teams all have OOGYs? Sounds like a job for Grave.
While it is partially relevant regarding the handedness issue, when people were whining about having “too many lefty bats” when I was pining for Dunn or Ibanez two years ago, it took minutes to find team after team after team which won titles and were good for years loaded with too many lefty bats.
Handedness is a bogus issue. Talent is what counts.
So Feliciano gets Utley and/or Howard out then he gives up a 2-run single to whoever bats next, and/or we have burned a bullpen guy for the game for 1-2 batters. Not worth it.
stickguy
1/3/2011-12:28pm at 12:28 pm (UTC -4)
Oh, I certainly support the title of this post, being a charter member of the No More OOGIES! club. Just get guys that can pitch, and ideally get out LH and RH batters.
It would be nice to see more full innings pitched, and less Jerry-style 1 batter then on to the next guy.
TRS86
1/3/2011-12:32pm at 12:32 pm (UTC -4)
I still don’t get why the Fudd gets no love.
The guy is not great but he has done everything ask of him and more. Perfect type of guy for a year like this.
stickguy
1/3/2011-12:46pm at 12:46 pm (UTC -4)
well, you posted the numbers to show that he is pretty much the same vs. LH and RH batters.
actually, I take that back. Guys like this (middle relief/oggys) normally will not face good guys that hit from the opposite side. So Fudd might get to pitch vs. a LH stiff like Eckstein, but not against utley or howard. So in such a small sample size, the numbers could effectively be “cooked”
TRS86
1/3/2011-12:48pm at 12:48 pm (UTC -4)
True but then he has dominated some very good LH recently. Including Howard.
metsfan4decades
1/3/2011-12:43pm at 12:43 pm (UTC -4)
I forgot all about Dessens. Those numbers are not too shabby.
He’s what? 40 now? That’s what scares me on relying on him solely for that role. However, if there are a couple of other arms that have success against lefties, then sure – no problem adding him to the mix.
I agree with many that it should be considered a luxury to carry a specialist only. We had Pedro for years, it was a great loogy but he’s gone. Do we really need to sign another to replace him? Would we rather have a couple of arms that aren’t quite as good against those lefty’s but have decent numbers against both lefties and righties?
Not sure how I feel about this right now. I’m afraid if we go with a garden variety of arms we’ll wind up with no arm that’s better than mediocre against lefties. This is where Sandy comes in. Just get us the best BP he can find and make sure at least one, if not two, have better than average success against lefties.
Acosta wasn’t too bad last year but was even less so before that. That’s the problem with most BP arms.
I’m assuming some of you are discussing Perez as the LOOGY? Well, he’d really have to show he was lights out, IMO, before I’d be handing him that role – regardless of the fact that he’s already on the payroll and it’s a sunk cost. This time, I don’t care about the cost. If he can’t get his job done, I want him gone.
TRS86
1/3/2011-12:48pm at 12:48 pm (UTC -4)
Right now
Krod
Parnell
Acosta
Merritt
Dessens resigned
Misch
Iggy
I would obviously like to see that improved but who the hell knows if that would be productive or not?
stickguy
1/3/2011-12:59pm at 12:59 pm (UTC -4)
I think Iggy is going to have a break out season and become a key guy in the pen this year.
Not scientific, but based on being his 2nd year in the states, the Collins factor, how good he looked early on before he hurt himself, and his “stuff”.
that, and every year it seems some guys come out of nowhere to have huge years in the pen (not specifically the mets of course, but across BB)
stickguy
1/3/2011-12:54pm at 12:54 pm (UTC -4)
Just ditch Ollie, and give the fans BP (blood pressure) a break!
there is another advantage to a no-oogy policy (instead have guys that can pitch to both sides, and pitch full innings).
and that is, you can realistically go with a 6 man pen. So, 1 less arm to dredge up, and the chance to actually keep a deeper bench, and maybe not have to lose a guy with no options (evans/turner/Emaus/etc.)
kistics
1/3/2011-1:02pm at 1:02 pm (UTC -4)
Here are Ollie’s numbers against some of the big name LHBs (not switch hitters) during his tenure as a Met (’06-’10).
Howard 29PAs, 14K, 2BB, .120/.207/.240/.447
Dunn 28PAs, 10K, 6BB, .200/.357/.350/.707
McCann 26PAs, 1K, 1BB, .240/.269/.520/.789
Utley 21PAs, 4K, 2BB, .188/.381/.250/.631
Fielder 14PAs, 4K, 1BB, .154/.214/.385/.599
AGonz 12 PAs, 2K, 3BB, .100/.250/.100/.350
His numbers are terrible against the RHBs/Switch hitters, but above numbers are not that bad at all. He does walk a lot of batters and that should be considered whether to make him a LOOGY or not, but it’s something to look at…
stickguy
1/3/2011-1:05pm at 1:05 pm (UTC -4)
can you isolate them to the before/after contract periods (2006-2008/2009-2010?) unless you think Ollie can recapture even what he was through 2008, this looks like a case of numbers lying!
TRS86
1/3/2011-1:06pm at 1:06 pm (UTC -4)
I can’t but you can. (I refuse to actually waste anymore time looking at Ollie stats).
Just go to baseball reference an click on vs. batter. Then it will let you select years, teams, players etc.
kistics
1/3/2011-1:16pm at 1:16 pm (UTC -4)
For period of ’08-’10
AGonz 10PAs, 2K, 2BB, .200OPS
Howard 16PAs, 8K, 0BB, .321OPS
Fielder 5PAs, 1K, 0BB, .400OPS
Utley 13PAs, 3K, 1BB, .408 OPS
Dunn 17PAs, 6K, 3BB, .448 OPS
McCann 12PAs, 0K, 1BB, .705OPS
TRS86
1/3/2011-1:18pm at 1:18 pm (UTC -4)
Can’t count 2008. He was not fat nor happy yet.
kistics
1/3/2011-1:26pm at 1:26 pm (UTC -4)
sample size is too small if it’s ’09-’10. only batter with 10 PAs or more is AGonz.
surprisingly, Ryan Howard has only faced Ollie 3 times in 2 seasons and Ultey 0 times.
TRS86
1/3/2011-1:05pm at 1:05 pm (UTC -4)
If you could get past the shoe drop impending doom feeling when he pitches that most likely affects the players as well as the fans then he can be an option. Hell right now he is an option regardless if we like him or not. Sandy will then determine if he makes the team but anyone on the roster should be an option to make the team right now including Castillo and Perez. Lets just hope they get out performed and it’s not an issue.
kistics
1/3/2011-1:35pm at 1:35 pm (UTC -4)
Okay I give up… screw Ollie. He sucks… his numbers suck past 2 seasons. His numbers are horrible in ’10.
TRS86
1/3/2011-1:48pm at 1:48 pm (UTC -4)
Hey but he’s a perfect rebound candidate. He has to be with those numbers.
fongy2
1/3/2011-1:53pm at 1:53 pm (UTC -4)
Ollie….Rebound???…From what?…a pretty awful career?….
To?…Not so awful?
kistics
1/3/2011-1:53pm at 1:53 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah he could be, but the negatives outweigh the positives by far. I don’t think it’s worth the time or the effort…
fongy2
1/3/2011-1:56pm at 1:56 pm (UTC -4)
He’s proven he can’t be trusted in the Rotaion, RP for him
is a disaster AND he could care less about the organization,
his teammates or even his own career!
Ceetar
1/3/2011-2:26pm at 2:26 pm (UTC -4)
It’s a world of difference, but I’d be a wee bit wary looking at Perez’s drop in velocity if I was a CC/Yankees fan.
kingman 26
1/3/2011-2:25pm at 2:25 pm (UTC -4)
As Bill Murray chanted in Meatballs “It just doesn’t matter!”
Ollie is getting shelled in Mexico, and not topping 90.
Ollie not topping 90 is not worth talking about.
He will be released before the end of spring training unless he accepts a minor league assignment.
fongy2
1/3/2011-1:52pm at 1:52 pm (UTC -4)
Happy New Year to all! I agree with Brock’s above post about handedness. Get guys who can get guys out….Period!
Tony LaRussa really gave birth to this whole thing 20,25 yrs ago
and it is a scam! Teams carrying guys for the express purpose of
coming in every 2nd or 3rd night to get 1 or 2 hitters out. As if carrying
a superior all around Pitcher wouldn’t be able to do about the same,
same or better job AND be far more valuable. Additionally, unless
we’re a serious contender (which it doesn’t look like), whats the point
of holding a roster spot for one or two “specialists”???
Wouldn’t it make more sense, especially with a starting staff that isn’t filled with guys who’ll go 7, 8 innings a night to have another guy or two
who can give you innings?
kingman 26
1/3/2011-2:24pm at 2:24 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed! What a shock!!
Happy New Year my friend and go Steelers and Jets! I think the Pats look unbeatable though….
Ceetar
1/3/2011-2:25pm at 2:25 pm (UTC -4)
To expand on this a little, while OOGY themselves are often overrated, the matchups often are not. So while we might not need someone specifically signed for this role, it’s also important to have someone for this role, because guys like Howard have a big glaring weakness in their ability to hit lefties, particularly situational relievers.
So I’d argue that while Perez can get lefties out, it’s more a factor of the hitters themselves struggling against lefties than Perez dominating them. The ability to combine a good lefthanded reliever with good splits against poor lefty hitting batters than can lose you the game in Howard/etc, is valuable. (Whether Perez has any value on the team is a different argument, and one better suited for a different post, specifically one of the ones we’ve argued over a billion times in the past)
So I’d definitely want lefties in the pen, and if you don’t have one of the top of the line Pedro guys, have two suitable lefties so you can use them when you feel like it, and not have to ‘save’ them for the lefties coming up.
On the flip side, I do feel the Mets have a nice “lefty-proof” lineup, in that Davis can hit lefties and Murphy, if he gets the job, is not exactly the lynchpin of the offense. The guys on the team that are going to beat you, are going to beat you from either side, or the right side. It’s an interesting thought, actually, to bat Murphy second with Wright third. You have to be insane, or Jerry Manuel-stupid, to leave in a lefty to pitch to Wright, so if you choose to bring in a lefty to face Murphy, you have to change him right back out. And you’ve brought in a lefty to face Daniel Murphy of all people. So in a way it ‘protects’ Murphy and gets him better pitchers to hit. Not to mention that the lefty he faces is likely to be a little distracted with Reyes on the bases.
Just some things to think about. I doubt the lineup makes sense that way, because it pushes guys too far down that hsouldn’t be, and I’m not sure we want Murphy, or even Ike, batting that high in the order.
TRS86
1/3/2011-2:28pm at 2:28 pm (UTC -4)
I think you leave it Reyes Pagan and see what 2 speedsters can do.
As for OOGY’s the problem is again it’s still more about matchups than handedness. By example the stats I provided for Beimel vs Howard. The guy crushes him as do the Phillies in general.
Ceetar
1/3/2011-2:38pm at 2:38 pm (UTC -4)
I’ve never thought Beimel was good anyway.
Certainly look at matchups, but in a lot of cases those are subject to a lot of small-sample varaition.
oleosmirf
1/3/2011-2:42pm at 2:42 pm (UTC -4)
the problem is someone who does both equally effective costs too much…
TRS86
1/3/2011-3:14pm at 3:14 pm (UTC -4)
Does he? Again I provide you one Elmer Fudd.
oleosmirf
1/3/2011-3:30pm at 3:30 pm (UTC -4)
well the idea is to sign someone who has actually done it before. Dessens might have done it last season although given his career numbers and his age, he’ll probably never do it again, or even come close.
Dessens was nothing more than a fluke…
stickguy
1/3/2011-3:26pm at 3:26 pm (UTC -4)
Oleo, maybe not. To keep being on Elmer here, he is a perfect example of how you build a cost effective BP. He can at minimum wage, as a MiL/ST invite guy, so no strings attached. You collect a bunch of these (a combo of live arms that haven’t put it all together yet, and wily veterans) and let them fight it out, and hope that a few rise to the top and have big years.
also why there are very few relievers you probably want to sign to large, multi-year deals. Especially keeping in mind they are almost always older by that time (see, Soriano andFuentes).
Grooming your own young power arms certainly helps too.
metsfan4decades
1/3/2011-3:36pm at 3:36 pm (UTC -4)
‘also why there are very few relievers you probably want to sign to large, multi-year deals.’
Exactly, especially given the fact that many middle relievers are just not effective year in and year out.
For example, Heilman and Shoenweiss….
oleosmirf
1/3/2011-3:39pm at 3:39 pm (UTC -4)
its impossible to determine whether someone like Dessens has a fluke season. sure its a good idea to bring in lots of arms to tryout and on MILB deals but you still need people you can rely on.
hazmet
1/3/2011-3:51pm at 3:51 pm (UTC -4)
Whenever I read the “oogy” discussion I think back to how spoiled I was when we had guys like Cook & Wendell that in today’s world may be considered oogies but they were just good bullpen guys who usually got the lefty / righty match up but could also be the eighth inning guy when called on or go “cross handed” so to speak. Oogy wasn’t their tag even when they were used as such. Right now we just need some more arms in the pen to choose from whether they be oogy or not. The guy I wanted the past few years, and is gone again this year too now, was Dotel. Yes, he’s been around the block but he wasn’t an oogy guy and I felt could have thrived in the eigth inning.
stickguy
1/3/2011-4:31pm at 4:31 pm (UTC -4)
you want the early days of Heilmann back then.
hazmet
1/3/2011-5:28pm at 5:28 pm (UTC -4)
Before “the jacket” totally screwed him up by having him focus on being a 2 pitch pitcher and ditching his curve and other pitches I wouldn’t mind a retake on that. Aaron, “your a starter, your a setup guy, your a closer of the future, your a starter again, now your a useless righty only guy” and, “we’ll leave you in for a second inning since our closer is shot in ’06 post season”. Heilman deserved a better shot at his career, pitched lights out in 2006 ST and was to be a starter only to be stuck in the pen with Zambrano & Bannister getting the rotations spots instead. Obviously wasn’t a fav of Rick’s I’d say.