I’m about to scare the hell out of you. The bases are loaded with Phillies in the ninth inning at Citi Field. Chase Utley just drew a walk. He is sitting on first base licking his chops and getting ready for one of his classic take out slides. The Mets are up by a run and are a double play away from putting the game “in the books.” And then it happens..
An easy ground ball to Reyes that’s a little in the hole. Reyes makes a nice stab and slings it over to…
Dan Murphy covering second base.
Your kidding me right?
Two nights ago, while I was watching Mets Hot Stove, I saw Tim Tuefel instructing Murphy on how to turn a double play. This is going to be the second basemen of the Mets? A guy, who already suffered a knee injury last year because he failed to get out of the way of a takeout slide? A player who still needs time to learn the position? C’on! Let’s a get serious here!
Look, I like Dan Murphy, he’s a good, young player with a nice bat. But why are the Mets still experimenting with him? Right, because he doesn’t have a position! And guess what, he still doesn’t have one because Second Base isn’t the solution either. Honestly, if I’m Brad Emaus, Rubin Tejada or Luis Castillo and I lose the second base job this year to Murphy, I’m getting out of baseball.
And if you think I’m crazy, who would you rather have playing second base in a sitation when game is on the line? In my opinion, not Murphy. Sorry.
What really scares me the most is that Terry Collins comes out with the statement that second base is an “offensive position”. That tells me that he is getting ready to justify the Murphy job.
Chase Utley must be foaming at the mouth.
I would.
59 comments
TRS86
2/24/2011-9:40am at 9:40 am (UTC -4)
Man I could not disagree with you more on this one. Relax, if they believe he can play 2B then who are we to judge. I am sure that with Tuefel, Backman, Hale, Collins and Sandy believe he will be good enough defensively then they have more knowledge on the subject than we do. Why do you think they would sacrifice the team just to promote Murphy?
metsfan4decades
2/24/2011-9:45am at 9:45 am (UTC -4)
Check out these videos over at Long Live Shea Stadium on the 2nd base candidates taking grounders at second:
http://longlivesheastadium.blogspot.com/2011/02/videos-from-day-3-of-spring-training.html
What stands out here is not necessarily Castillo’s smooth moves or going in the hole for that grounder. I have to figure he knew where that ball was going. What stands out for me is Murphy’s fielding. He just does not look natural at all, I’ll even go so far as to say awkward. I know you don’t get points for style but Murph out there full time makes me nervous right now. Want to see more of him there during the ST games. These clips make it hard to really tell.
If effort counts for anything, Murph would get the position hands down. But I’m just not sure right now if effort on Murph’s part will be good enough.
TRS86
2/24/2011-9:50am at 9:50 am (UTC -4)
Again, I think we just need to relax on Murphy’s fielding abilities a little. Of course he is going to look awkward. He has not played the position for very long at all. I still think there has to be a reason that so many of the Mets coaches and management are giving him the opportunity and even choosing him as the favorite. Why would they do that if they did not believe he has the potential to do it?
stickguy
2/24/2011-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
hey get sick to the stomach at the thought of Luis in the batting order too?
metsfan4decades
2/24/2011-10:08am at 10:08 am (UTC -4)
I know I do.
Can we take Castillo’s smooth db moves and Murph’s bat and come up with a passable 2nd baseman this year? LOL.
I’m counting on Havens staying healthy and coming in as the starting 2nd baseman for 2012.
metsfan4decades
2/24/2011-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
I really don’t know. Maybe for the same reason they stuck him out in LF 2 years ago? I’m guessing b/c they want his bat there and they’re trying him anywhere there is an opening hoping he does relatively well enough to justify letting him play that position, even if just platooning.
I remember the comments from 2 years ago with Murph. They were from Jerry so take it for what it’s worth. He said he did very well in LF in ST that year. Nothing at all was apparent to how he was going to struggle there once the season started. Which, let’s face it, he obviously did. His dropped ball in LF against the Marlins very possibly cost Johan his first win.
I’m pulling for Murph but so far, I think it’s far from a lock. My guess right now is he makes the squad but not as the primary 2nd baseman.
TRS86
2/24/2011-10:09am at 10:09 am (UTC -4)
Honestly, if they had left him in LF in AAA and let him get used to the position then he would have been passable there as well. He’s most likely never going to be great defensively but his defensive struggles are also blown way out of proportion because of the moments they have occurred. It’s like we forget that he has never been given adequate time to learn the position he is playing. That we expect him to be a good fielder at a position he has not played right from the beginning. You take your lumps with young players sometimes.
stickguy
2/24/2011-10:23am at 10:23 am (UTC -4)
he was not that bad in LF, even in 2009. People forget that this was the first time any of these guys played at citi field, and from reports, LF was nt the easiest place to play (winds I think).
so he took a few odd routes to balls (not the only guy, and part of the learning curve) but he got to most of them. And yeah, he dropped a FB. It happens, even to expereinced guys. Hell, doesn’t everyone remember a certain 2B being touted for his defensive prowess doing the same damn thing recently with a pop up?
Selective memory always comes into play. People remember the few things that stand out good or bad, and forget the routine (the bulk of all action).
I think moving from LF had more to do with Sheff hanging around, delgado going down, and jerry being a dope. Otherwise, Murphy probably spends the year in LF.
TRS86
2/24/2011-10:29am at 10:29 am (UTC -4)
Agreed Stick. If you give him time in the minors to play LF he most likely learns to play a passable LF. Fact is they liked him enough to rush him up without even a week of OF duty.
stickguy
2/24/2011-10:33am at 10:33 am (UTC -4)
and the reason he got the starting job for 2009 is that he looked pretty damned good out there in september 2008!
the only thing that changed between years (other than Murphy probably working out in LF over the winter) is moving from Shea to Citi.
kingman 26
2/24/2011-11:47am at 11:47 am (UTC -4)
Not at all Stick.
He got the starting job 100% because of the offense and hustle he showed in 2008, and the clear facts that there is no DH in the NL, he couldn’t be put in RF or catch, and every other position other than LF was taken.
kingman 26
2/24/2011-11:44am at 11:44 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, he was pretty bad in LF buddy.
He made the decent-to-above-average Bay look like the young Barry Bonds with a tad of Beltran and Clemente thrown in.
He grew up in the infield. He will adjust to 2B.
metsfan4decades
2/24/2011-10:25am at 10:25 am (UTC -4)
I’ll say this though…I know I don’t want to see Castillo out there. Yes, he turns a smooth db. I think his range is shot though and his bat, other than maybe some walks and a slap hit, non existent.
So to me, it’s a matter of how much defense will be sacrificed if Murph gets the starting position. As I said, I think he makes the squad but if he gets the starting job, better have a better defensive replacement on that bench, at least in the beginning.
TRS86
2/24/2011-10:30am at 10:30 am (UTC -4)
I am sure Hu is making the team and I would expect Emaus to as well so they will be well covered.
stickguy
2/24/2011-10:33am at 10:33 am (UTC -4)
With turner, tejada and Havens all down in the minors waiting for a call.
stickguy
2/24/2011-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
if he can do it, he will. If not, he won’t. simple.
and terry’s comment should not be taken to mean that a butcher is fine at 2B. More that it is now a position that is expected to provide some offense, and if you have a no-hit guy there you are behind the 8 ball.
If anything, I took it as a message to Castillo that he is out.
Of course Murphy is not going to look quite as fluid or natural. Like you said MF, no extra outs for style points.
And Bryan, in your scenario (a pretty rare occurence), with the anticipated current roster, they will be carrying a slick fielding/no bat MI guy for exactly this situation. Hu would be in as a defensive replacement.
TRS86
2/24/2011-10:07am at 10:07 am (UTC -4)
Stick you and I see eye to eye very often and again on this. I just don’t see the uproar. Either the Mets believe that his bat will overcome his defense and eventually his defense will pass OR they believe it will not. Plenty of time to make that decision.
Gonzo Will
2/24/2011-10:00am at 10:00 am (UTC -4)
Hey TRS, if Murphy makes the team as the everyday second baseman, I’ll ship you a beer to your liking. However, if he does make the team and starts throwing balls into the stands on routine double plays, I’ll expect a beer in the mail
TRS86
2/24/2011-10:04am at 10:04 am (UTC -4)
Again Gonzo, why do you think the Mets are so willing to give him that chance? There has to be something they see.
Of course if he gets the job he is going to be terrible to start with. I am ok with that IF the Mets believe he has the potential to get better at the position. I see no reason that the Mets would push him at 2B if they thought he had no ability to do it.
“Former Mets second baseman Tim Teufel has been tutoring Murphy at second. “It’s all footwork,” Teufel said. “It’s going to take repetition. For the 10, 12 days he’s been down here, it’s been a vast improvement.”"
Again, who are we to judge at this point. What have we seen other than some raw MC footage of Murphy doing some drills? I just don’t think it’s a big deal. If the Mets believe he can do it then he will be there and if not he won’t. Pretty simple to me.
metsfan4decades
2/24/2011-10:10am at 10:10 am (UTC -4)
‘Of course if he gets the job he is going to be terrible to start with. I am ok with that IF the Mets believe he has the potential to get better at the position. ‘
But why do this? He has options left. Send him down to the minors to continue getting work in at 2nd. Maybe an extra month or so will make a big difference.
metsfan4decades
2/24/2011-10:11am at 10:11 am (UTC -4)
And that’s with the caveat that it’s apparent he looks awful out there still at end of ST.
If he looks passable, fine – give him a shot. But defense with this pitching staff is going to be necessary.
TRS86
2/24/2011-10:18am at 10:18 am (UTC -4)
I agree but again if the Mets believe that he is ready, with all of the experienced IF coaches they have, then who are we to judge that he is not? I see no reason that they would put him out there if they do not believe he can get it done.
Many rookies have struggle defensively when they first came up. Ultimately you have to view Murphy as a rookie.
metsfan4decades
2/24/2011-10:28am at 10:28 am (UTC -4)
Damn that Havens and those oblique injuries……
stickguy
2/24/2011-10:30am at 10:30 am (UTC -4)
even utley, when they moved him from 3B to 2B, was not considered to be much of a glove. He worked hard, got lots of practice, and improved.
I spent a lot of time on LL coaching staffs, and even there, guys moved to new positions all the time. And most of them picked it up pretty quickly. and these were kids where you were lucky to have a couple of practices during the season, so most of them learned on the fly during games!
Murphy has been working on this extensively for over a year, as his full time job, with some of the best professional coaches in the world helping him. And they are just working on teaching him the tricks of the trade playing 2B, not rocket science.
If he has enough basic athletic skill to handle the position, he should be OK if allowed to play. And that is what the coaches at this point have probably been looking for. and they have a large body of work (practices and games) to see him do it, and combined about 50 years in BB dealing with the infield.
so yes, if at this point those guys consider it worthwhile to spend time with Murphy working at 2B, then I will believe (drink the koolade!) that he has the potential to play 2B in the majors.
TRS86
2/24/2011-10:34am at 10:34 am (UTC -4)
I just don’t see this as drinking the koolade. I see no reason for the Mets to do this unless they believe he can do it. What other motivation would they have? It’s not like Murphy is a big ticket seller.
kistics
2/24/2011-10:39am at 10:39 am (UTC -4)
I agree. And if Murphy can’t turn the double plays and is a bad defensive 2B, then the Mets would go with other options. I don’t see any issue with that.
TRS86
2/24/2011-10:42am at 10:42 am (UTC -4)
Right, I see no motive for the Mets to play him at 2B unless they believe that he can or has the potential to do it.
kistics
2/24/2011-10:33am at 10:33 am (UTC -4)
IF Murphy cannot turn the double plays in that situation, then the Mets would not put him on 2B. It’s simple as that. I trust the Mets management team to make the right decision about his defense. If Murphy makes the team as the starting 2B, that means he CAN turn double plays. Will he look pretty doing it? Maybe not. Will he have couple bumps in the road? Sure, but who doesn’t? Chase Utley isn’t exactly a gold glover either.
Will 2B defense be the weakest link for the Mets? Perhaps. But we’re going to find it out soon and I am sure that the Mets will do the right thing to get that double play to end the inning.
TRS86
2/24/2011-10:35am at 10:35 am (UTC -4)
Bingo buddy.
stickguy
2/24/2011-10:49am at 10:49 am (UTC -4)
also keep in mind what killed the mets in the 2nd half last year.
Pitching was generally good. Defense was fine (with a D but no O contingent at 2B).
But they did not hit. At all. Black hole city in the line up.
and within reason, offense is way, way more valuable to winning games than defense is.
maybe if the 1-7 in the order this year are all raking they can afford to carry a black hole at #8. But I still don’t wnat to if I don’t have to.
TRS86
2/24/2011-10:50am at 10:50 am (UTC -4)
Keep in mind that Dwright’s fielding percentage was at .939 his last year in the minors and only .942 his first year in the majors. In 2002 Reyes committed 29 errors in A and AA ball.
kingman 26
2/24/2011-11:40am at 11:40 am (UTC -4)
+ Infinity
Players who work hard can dramatically improve their defense.
stickguy
2/24/2011-10:54am at 10:54 am (UTC -4)
beating the horse a little more, when did 2B become like SS and CF on the key defense scale? No teams play all glove no stick there these days, do they? Did they really in the past?
SS yes, but not 2B.
just thinking of the 2B I can name. Cano, utley, philips, shoemaker (st. louis), johnson, uggla.
those are guys in for their bats. Even the ones that have improved enough to be good/OK (like Utley) started off pretty rough.
so maybe Terry is right, 2B is now a position where you better be getting some offense out of.
even if that means turning a few less DPs.
TRS86
2/24/2011-10:58am at 10:58 am (UTC -4)
Yup, it’s not where you start. Even if he does not become great a the position then his experience will allow him to be that utility man that so many think he is destined to become.
metsfan4decades
2/24/2011-10:59am at 10:59 am (UTC -4)
So realistically, what should we be hoping Murph is better on? Range as 2nd base or turning a double play?
stickguy
2/24/2011-11:04am at 11:04 am (UTC -4)
I still think turning the DP is being way overrated as a stumbling block.
I would vote for range. If he can get to balls and make plays, that will be huge. Pretty sure a 2B has to deal with a lot more GBs than they do trying to turn a DP (as the middle man).
I just remember so many balls going right by castillo. Hell, I can remember plays where he was too slow to even get to 2B to be in position to turn the DP (remember reyes having to hold the ball, waiting for him?)
I’m sure some saber wizz will figure out what a DP is worth vs. getting an out and keeping a guy off base.
and I know he got hurt on a dirty take out in the minors. Well, now he knows what to expect, and I am sure the coaches are spending plenty of time working with him on the mental aspect and techniques for that play.
Me, I say just spike the guy, or land your 215#s on his legs. Probably won’t do it in the future.
metsfan4decades
2/24/2011-11:20am at 11:20 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, I have to agree. Get to those balls and get ‘em to Jose covering 2nd. He’ll take care of turning that double play!
TRS86
2/24/2011-11:23am at 11:23 am (UTC -4)
Honestly I am much more concerned with him being sure handed than I am him being able to turn the DP.
TRS86
2/24/2011-11:01am at 11:01 am (UTC -4)
Schumaker based on what i can find never even played one inning of 2B in the minors and based on every report has been pretty “awkward” there since the move.
njstuckintx
2/24/2011-11:19am at 11:19 am (UTC -4)
If turning that last double play in the 9th inning is such a worry, put in a defensive replacement. Seriously, Houston would take Carlos Lee out in the 8th inning if they were up to shore up their defense.
Point being, Murph will make the team because of his offense. If he’s not hitting, he’ll be on the bench or in AAA. So if there is a situation you’re worried about defense, in comes the defensive calvary.
TRS86
2/24/2011-11:22am at 11:22 am (UTC -4)
Was thinking the same thing. If they are not comfortable with him at 2B in the late innings then why would he be out there? It’s actually kind of a luxury that we really would need no other late inning defensive replacements at any other position that I can think of and please don’t say LF or holy fire may rain down upon you.
kingman 26
2/24/2011-11:37am at 11:37 am (UTC -4)
Will, I think you are great. I love The Sunday Question, I like you personally, and you are the best and most productive of the first round of authors we added to the site.
But sir, I must most respectfully disagree with you here—for now.
I think Murphy has the potential to become a decent fielder while providing good offense for the position, and, also importantly, he is a player who clearly has large bowls of Kellogg’s Gritty Hearts and Nuts cereal every morning. Sorry to those who disagree, but attitude, for this team after last year, is almost as important as ability. We know Murph won’t need cajoling to get his butt on the field for workouts; we know he will slide hard into home every time; and we know he will run hard to first every time.
The slide in the minors was a filthy, dirty, rancid slide by a scumbag player–not really fair to judge Murph on that.
And a player with his work ethic can dramatically improve their fielding; examples abound. George Brett started out as a mediocre fielder making 25-30 errors a year, and his Gritty Heart and Nuts made him into a Gold Glover who eventually made 15 errors a year.
I think Murph deserves a shot. Castillo has not been nearly as bad as folks make him out to be, but he is not what he was a few years ago. He is slower, which reduces his offensive and defensive value precipitously.
Emaus has never played a major league game.
I like Tejada, but let’s let him improve the offense for a year, and work on SS if we do not re-sign Reyes.
stickguy
2/24/2011-11:50am at 11:50 am (UTC -4)
I agree with you about murphy.
He might make a bonehead play, but much more likely it will be from trying too hard, rather than not hard enough.
so while I can easily see a ball going by either Murph of Slappy, the difference is I expect Murphy to be laid out on his face in the dirt from diving after it, while Castillo would have taken 1 step and just kind of waved as it went by.
kingman 26
2/24/2011-11:52am at 11:52 am (UTC -4)
+ 1 million
metsfan4decades
2/24/2011-12:23pm at 12:23 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed.
TRS86
2/24/2011-12:00pm at 12:00 pm (UTC -4)
The only problem with that is the fact that Murphy is in this position because he did NOT bust his ass defensively as a younger player. IF he had been an above average defensive player anywhere on the field then he would have been kept at that position. He put in countless hours on hitting and forgot about defense. He admits to this himself.
TRS86
2/24/2011-12:01pm at 12:01 pm (UTC -4)
That being said he now sees the error of his ways and is desperate to do whatever it takes to correct those flaws. So I too am rooting hard for him. What’s better than a guy who learns from his mistakes and works hard to correct them>?
kingman 26
2/24/2011-12:03pm at 12:03 pm (UTC -4)
“What’s better than a guy who learns from his mistakes and works hard to correct them?”
Not much.
kingman 26
2/24/2011-12:02pm at 12:02 pm (UTC -4)
Well, there may be two other words which are relevant to this perspective as well:
David
Wright
He could have been Brooks Robinson on his very best day and was not taking over 3B for the Mets.
kingman 26
2/24/2011-11:42am at 11:42 am (UTC -4)
And another thing to consider is that, overall, defense figures to be the least of the 2011 Mets’ problems.
Ike, Reyes, Wright, Beltran, and Pagan are all VERY good fielders.
Thole and Bay can be at least average or better.
I think the starting pitching and the offense clearly are bigger worries than Murph at 2B.
Hell, based on what we saw last year, on days he doesn’t pitch, Dickey could probably be a fine late-inning defensive replacement for Murph.
metsfan4decades
2/24/2011-12:24pm at 12:24 pm (UTC -4)
On that note, I laughed right out loud at Lennon’s latest tweet:
DPLennon: Dickey just unleashed his new super-slow knuckler. F-Mart nearly fell over taking it. Staff behind backstop laughed
metsfan4decades
2/24/2011-12:26pm at 12:26 pm (UTC -4)
Man, how I’d love to see Utley against RA doing this.
stickguy
2/24/2011-11:55am at 11:55 am (UTC -4)
The biggest, best reason though for murphy to win the starting job at 2B for opening day?
shutting up (well, they will never shut up, wo royally pissing off) a few posters at other sites that are so rabidly anti-murphy that I think he must have slept with thier dogs and kicked their wives.
Will need to go to Costco to get a big enough box of crow to cover all the haters!
metsfan4decades
2/24/2011-12:25pm at 12:25 pm (UTC -4)
I see one who is out there trying to bet $200 he’s right and Murph never sniffs the starting role at 2nd base.
I sure could use $200 bucks…..
metsfan4decades
2/24/2011-12:33pm at 12:33 pm (UTC -4)
On another note, was kind of surprised to see this complimentary piece from Madden this morning:
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2011/02/24/2011-02-24_paying_dividends.html
He ends with:
‘Right now, everything is on paper, nothing for sure. When Alderson says (with fingers crossed) the Mets are a lot better than most people think, or that they might even have a better future than the Phillies, he really believes it. Until proven otherwise, don’t they for now at least deserve the benefit of doubt?’
njstuckintx
2/24/2011-12:59pm at 12:59 pm (UTC -4)
Better record this year… Mets or Cards? Keep in mind division strengths and such.
stickguy
2/24/2011-1:11pm at 1:11 pm (UTC -4)
mets
metsfan4decades
2/24/2011-1:14pm at 1:14 pm (UTC -4)
I really don’t know – hard for me to make predictions this early. I’ll give the edge to the Mets but it might be close.
Heck….saw MLB network Hot Stove last night. They’ve got the Orioles at 81/81 for this year. And some think the Mets will be no better than last year?
I have to go look at what the Orioles are putting out there this year. Last year they looked awful to me and apparently they were b/c I think they only won 66?
oleosmirf
2/25/2011-10:31am at 10:31 am (UTC -4)
your hypothetical situation would most not happen simply b/c Chin-lung Hu would be playing 2B in that situation.