Today I bring you the first in the installment of my own overrated and underrated selections. As I have mentioned in the past, this subject always is left up to the eye of the beholder. Obviously someone whom I have on the overrated list might be on someone else underrated list. While I will try to make my case for these selections, you may be able to convince me otherwise. Feel free to make that attempt.
Catcher:
Underrated: Jon Stearns
Line: .260 BA, .341 OBP, .375 SLG, .717 OPS. 102 OPS+ 37% CS rate for career.
Best season as a Met: .264 BA, .364 OBP, .413 SLG, .777 OPS 121 OPS+ 15 HR and 25 SB. 5.5 WAR
Awards: 12 time AS
Yeah I know in Mets circles Stearns may not be underrated but I think outside of old Met lore he certainly is. Many Mets fans, including myself, have not done adequate research on the old-time Mets. Stearns “Bad Dude” was the best player on a really bad Mets team for a significant period of time. His steady catching ability was only hampered by his knack for injuries.
Overrated: Gary Carter
Line: .249 BA, .319 OBP, .412 SLG, .731 OPS, 104 OPS+
Best Season as a Met: .281 BA, .365 OBP, .488 SLG, .853 OPS, 138 OPS+ WAR 6.7
Awards: 11 time AS
Uh oh, I have done it now. I have called an 86er overrated. Guys I loved Gary Carter but the Carter we got honestly was already past his prime. He did provide us with 2 very good years in 85 and 86 but obviously his legend as a Met is increased because of the WS win. Looking at his OPS+ his offense was not even significantly better than his defensive counter part Stearns. Lets not forget defense. By the time Carter got to the Mets it was quite easy to steal against him as his CS% was only in the 20%’s. While I am not discounting his grit, heart or leadership ability, fact is that by the time we got Carter aside from 2 good years those were about the only things he had left.
41 comments
stickguy
2/25/2011-11:20am at 11:20 am (UTC -4)
those first 2 years though carry a lot of weight.
I think it is pretty common though to kind of ignore those last few years when they are a shell of their former AS selves.
I might have put Hundley as the overrated, depending on how you value a couple of high HR steroid fueled years, after a bunch of poorer ones.
but as always, it depends on how you rate the guy in the first place!
TRS86
2/25/2011-11:37am at 11:37 am (UTC -4)
If you ignore those last few years then you are ignoring most of his career with the Mets. Again, my point is that as a Met he is overrated. Obviously because of his role in 86.
ajgmets
2/25/2011-11:10pm at 11:10 pm (UTC -4)
Nice job, Johnny Stearns was “Nails” before we’d heard of Lenny Dykstra. His offense was really no better tha that provided by personal underrated catcher, Jerry Grote. Stearns 4 or 5 seasons (77-81) as the main backstop were highlighted by his toughness behind the plate and a bit of pop in his bat, even though at the time several pitchers complained of his lack of consistency in pitch calling. i have strong recollections of guys like Pete Falcone, Craig Swan and Pat Zachary mentioning that they couldn’t get on the same page with Stearns on several occasions… Looking back on that era it seems pretty obvious that these pitchers weren’t all that good anyway ..LOL
I really feel Grote is the most overlooked catcher of his era and in Mets history. He was the model of strength and stability for the young pitching staffs that the Mets built the franchise upon.
Nice job looking forward to more of these comparisons..
stickguy
2/25/2011-11:25am at 11:25 am (UTC -4)
totally off topic, but there was a note in the philly paper today about Utley being too sore to play yet (from the workouts). So that is lee and utley already with issues.
man, that would make me sad if the Phils had one of those years where everything went wrong!
kingman 26
2/25/2011-2:38pm at 2:38 pm (UTC -4)
They’re going to finish 4th; mark it down.
Want a bet on the Phillies under their Vegas win total too??
I’ll book that one myself!
stickguy
2/25/2011-3:29pm at 3:29 pm (UTC -4)
whats the number?
I will take the under on Rollins’ 116.
metsfan4decades
2/25/2011-11:31am at 11:31 am (UTC -4)
Definitely agree about Sterns.
Hard to argue with your thoughts on Carter. Looking at stats, you can make a case. But we all know what the ‘Kid’ brought to the table especially in ’85 and ’86. When he came over, it’s like the final piece of the puzzle that comprised a team with a WS goal in mind. He is in the HOF also, but obviously not with a NY Met hat.
If memory serves me right though, he didn’t hit all that well in the ’86 post season, did he?
kingman 26
2/25/2011-2:25pm at 2:25 pm (UTC -4)
I think he had a big hit in the bottom of the tenth of Game 6, if I remember correctly….
metsfan4decades
2/25/2011-2:46pm at 2:46 pm (UTC -4)
lol, of course.
TRS86
2/25/2011-1:53pm at 1:53 pm (UTC -4)
OK well glad everyone agrees. LOL.
stickguy
2/25/2011-2:01pm at 2:01 pm (UTC -4)
everyone must be so satisfied with ST so far they have nothing to say.
TRS86
2/25/2011-2:04pm at 2:04 pm (UTC -4)
Hairston most likely will get beaned his next plate appearance. Way too comfortable.
metsfan4decades
2/25/2011-2:22pm at 2:22 pm (UTC -4)
Dang, wish I could watch this, hear this, or at least follow along on some site…..
stickguy
2/25/2011-2:23pm at 2:23 pm (UTC -4)
mets are tweeting updates on their twitter account.
metsfan4decades
2/25/2011-2:47pm at 2:47 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, I finally caught onto that.
stickguy
2/25/2011-2:22pm at 2:22 pm (UTC -4)
if he Cadillaced on the 2nd HR trot, I think someone should put him on his ass.
Probably will be Nick evans.
kingman 26
2/25/2011-2:19pm at 2:19 pm (UTC -4)
Oh, I definitely disagree!
Carter was the other veteran cog after Keith who put the team over the top.
Sorry for the youngsters, but Carter had huge presence, was an excellent offensive catcher in the pre-steroid era, and while he began declining as a Met, he was a fine defensive catcher obviously great with pitchers.
And another important point is that he was one of the few 86 Mets who was not a drinker/druggie/party guy, and it has to have been important to have a few serious grown-ups around that team.
Stearns was a good player, but looked better because he was on abominable teams. Loved him as a kid, but let’s face it, he made all those all-star teams largely due to the rule that every team had to have one all-star.
TRS86
2/25/2011-2:28pm at 2:28 pm (UTC -4)
I do not discount Carter’s role in 86. Just saying that as a whole his Mets tenure is overrated.
Stearns was never a great hitter but defensively was much better than Carter. Offensively he was not the threat that Carter was but in the end their stats lines ended up very similar.
kingman 26
2/25/2011-2:35pm at 2:35 pm (UTC -4)
Well, first off, Stearns was most definitely not much better than Carter defensively. Just not true.
I know you are focusing on Met numbers, but when saying their stat lines ended up very similar, that is just so very misleading.
Stearns never topped 30 2B, never topped 15 HR, stole some bases but had a horrendous SB %, Carter destroyed him in SLG and OPS during his prime…..the only areas they were similar were BB and K.
Carter’s longevity hurt his overall lines…in their best years Carter was much, much better than Stearns offensively. No comparison.
Carter led the league in throwing our baserunners a few times in his Gold Glove prime.
My friend, these players were in very, very different leagues in terms of overall ability, regardless of the very misleading career OPS+ comparison.
TRS86
2/25/2011-2:38pm at 2:38 pm (UTC -4)
Again Kingman, I am not talking about their overall careers. Obviously for a career Carter dwarfs Stearns, I am talking about them JUST as Mets. By the time Carter got to the Mets he only had 2 above average seasons left in him. So comparing Carter’s MET years and Stearns MET years you get similar offensive production and by the time the Mets got Carter his CS% was not very good.
kingman 26
2/25/2011-2:41pm at 2:41 pm (UTC -4)
OK, sorry, thought you partially meant to compare their overall career stat lines.
Sorry Chief.
But hey, you wanted SOME dissent here on a quiet day, right??
A rare slow day here, and I am delaying my second round of snow shoveling.
But how about that Nets trade!
2 years and it will be us and Miami ruling the east!
TRS86
2/25/2011-2:45pm at 2:45 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah no problem. Was hoping you would show up. Needed someone to disagree with me. LOL.
TRS86
2/25/2011-2:44pm at 2:44 pm (UTC -4)
Carter as a Met: .249 BA, .319 OBP, .412 SLG, .731 OPS, 104 OPS+
Stearns: .260 BA, .341 OBP, .375 SLG, .717 OPS. 102 OPS+
Just not a significant difference. Obviously higher slugging percentage but then Stearns has a much higher OBP and BA. Defensively during his tenure with the Mets Carter’s CS % would have had around a 10-15% below Stearns.
Also the point here is not really to say that Stearns was a better catcher with the Mets than Carter. Only to say that Carter is in my opinion overrated while Stearns is under. If applying a rating in my opinion people view Carter as an 8 while I view him as a 6 and people view Stearns as a 3 while I view him as a 5. Just throwing numbers out as an example. I would have no idea what to base an actual number system on.
kingman 26
2/25/2011-2:57pm at 2:57 pm (UTC -4)
Gotcha; but again, Carter’s sharp decline really hurt those overall Met numbers.
I don’t think too many rational people would ever consider Stearns a 3 though. I would say Carter might be an 8 while Stearns is a 6.
But yes, I am overrating Carter a bit due to 1985 and 1986 and my hopeless and admitted bias towards guys from that era!
But as a little kid, I definitely loved Stearns too.
t agee
2/25/2011-5:10pm at 5:10 pm (UTC -4)
Have to say I agree with you TRS86. Stearns was very underrated, made a couple of All-Star games for us, ran the bases and played damn hard too.
Can’t complain about Carter’s 1985 and I’m glad he was hitting in the 9th inning of game 6 but he’s career started to slide.
metsfan4decades
2/25/2011-3:12pm at 3:12 pm (UTC -4)
Dusty Ryan, who hit a HR and ended the game on a fly out….who IS Dusty Ryan?
stickguy
2/25/2011-3:28pm at 3:28 pm (UTC -4)
some journeyman catcher they picked up.
saltygary
2/25/2011-4:57pm at 4:57 pm (UTC -4)
Ya know I am off radar for a week due to a business trip so while I’m stuck at an airport hotel in Colombus trying to get back to NH I decided to cheer myself up and swing by my favorite Mets website.
FAVORITE NO MORE!!!!!!!! HOW DARE YOU CALL “THE KID” OVERATTED!!! Carter would make anyone his biotch! His name is Gary which is the best freaking game in the world. He won the punt, pass and kick contest as a kid, did you TRS? No, no you didn’t, but you know who did? Gary Carter, “The Kid” Mr. Effin Clutch. Immm OUTTTT. ARGHHHH
TRS86
2/25/2011-5:37pm at 5:37 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, sorry Salty. I am sure Carter himself would adamantly disagree with my assumption.
saltygary
2/25/2011-5:45pm at 5:45 pm (UTC -4)
Ya know where I am now because of you? A hilton garden inn bar. Would Carter come here no because he isbetter than that.
Have a good weekend folks LGM. Oh an btw I am getting so excited for the rdm dugout to be open again.
TRS86
2/25/2011-6:00pm at 6:00 pm (UTC -4)
You know it. It’s right there waiting on us.
kingman 26
2/25/2011-6:05pm at 6:05 pm (UTC -4)
HAHA!!
This is comedy of the highest order, which I sincerely appreciate.
kingman 26
2/25/2011-6:05pm at 6:05 pm (UTC -4)
And how ABOUT them Nets??
TRS86
2/25/2011-6:12pm at 6:12 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, when I typed in Nets on google this is the link that came up. Sure you would agree….
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/620339-deron-williams-why-the-new-jersey-nets-are-still-going-to-be-terrible-with-him
kingman 26
2/25/2011-6:16pm at 6:16 pm (UTC -4)
LOL!! Thank you!
Bleacher Report is truly silly.
A great trade which may, in 2–3 years, rival Marbury for Kidd.
TRS86
2/25/2011-6:18pm at 6:18 pm (UTC -4)
For their sake I hope you are right. I still see Paul ending up in NY with Melo and Amare.
kingman 26
2/25/2011-6:23pm at 6:23 pm (UTC -4)
We shall see…but Harris, while good, was VERY inconsistent and injured a lot, and Favors thus far showed less than nothing.
Prismo
2/25/2011-6:24pm at 6:24 pm (UTC -4)
Please check out the new piece so we can have a fun argument.
Mr North Jersey
2/25/2011-6:34pm at 6:34 pm (UTC -4)
From MMO:
Kramer67 says:
February 25, 2011 at 4:02 pm
I almost fell off my chair when I read that Gary Carter jab. Yes he got worse as he aged as does any catcher, but for two years he was our MVP and an All Star and we dont win in 86 without him. Underrated? Hell NO!!!
BTW I think he meant to say “Overrated” instead of “Underrated”.
TRS86
2/25/2011-10:45pm at 10:45 pm (UTC -4)
Obviously that guy does not get it. That’s what makes over under great. I love Carter and he was great in 85 and 86 and uh… that’s about it.
Fred
2/27/2011-9:48am at 9:48 am (UTC -4)
I agree with you that Bad Dude was underated. He was one of the only reasons to watch the Mets during those dark days of the late 70s/early 80s. As for Carter overrated, I have to disagree. First, if you look at the stats, all of the starting pitchers from ’84 lowered their ERAs a full run in ’85, with Doc having a career year. I know some of that is maturity, but I also think the Kid should get some credit for the great job he did handling the pitching staff.
During Cone’s rookie year, he was getting lit up in one of his first starts. Cone, always an emotional guy, started getting a “deer in the headlights” and hangdog look. Carter came out, yelled something at Cone, and he got himself together and settled down to finish the inning. It came out later that Carter told him to respect his uniform and keep his chin up. Cone credited Carter with helping him get over those early career jitters.
Second, the single off of Schiraldi with two outs in the bottom of the 10th in Game 6.
Third, I think Carter gets a lot of guff because many folks (especially reporters) think the guy is a phony. This is nonsense and completely unfair. All because he is friendly, accessible and smiling doesn’t make him fake. Carter lost his mom at a young age, and overcame that to become a Hall of Fame catcher. I think he geniunely loves the game, and is always amazed how far he came. Granted, the comment about Randolph was unfortunate, but Carter’s mistake was saying on the record what practically everyone else connected to the Mets was saying off the record.
Finally, if you are going to point to any catcher as overated, I would nominate either Todd Hundley (when he had a shot at Campy’s record, he began swinging from his heels regardless of the game situation) or Brian Schneider (he was promoted as a great defensive catcher, but really seemed no different than veteran backup Ron Hodges, but without the good eye at the plate).