Time for my next installment of overrated- underrated. Today I take a look at 2 of the more popular Mets pitchers for this generation.
Overrated:
Pedro Martinez
First of all let me say I still think it was a great signing and the hype surrounding his starts alone was most likely worth the contract.
HOWEVER, his time with the Mets only produced the following:
3.88 ERA, 79 starts and 486.2 innings with a 32-23 record. Averaging only 8-6 with 20 starts and 122 innings during his tenure. Not to mention that in the 2 seasons that the Mets may have needed him the most (2006, 2008, I would like to include 2007 but he only had 5 starts…) he really could not find the Pedro magic.
2006 he had the worst year of his career to that point and only pitched 7 games in the 2nd half to an ERA of 7.84.
2008 saw him have 11 starts in the 2nd half with a 5.18 ERA and go 0-3 with a 7.77 ERA in 4 starts in September.
Sorry Pedro, but you are the definition of overrated in Mets lore.
Underrated:
Johan Santana
What? How can Johan be underrated? We all love Johan. Sometimes I think it gets lost just how good Johan has been since he came. I think in the back of our mind we think that Johan has spent an incredible amount of time injured or ineffective. However during his first 3 years Johan has averaged, 200 innings and a 2.85 ERA with an 8.1 H/9. Cliff Lee during that span has averaged a 2.98 ERA and 8.8 H/9. CC a 3.07 ERA and 7.9 H/9. Yet for some reason Johan never gets a mention in the top pitchers in the game anymore. I know inside of most sane Mets fan discussions Johan is still viewed as a great pitcher it’s just I get the sense we as a fan-base take him for granted a little.
35 comments
Prismo
3/8/2011-9:47am at 9:47 am (UTC -4)
I think the issue with Johan is that he’s never been to the playoffs with the team. No fault of his own, but it is what it is.
TRS86
3/8/2011-9:51am at 9:51 am (UTC -4)
Of course neither did Pedro.
Prismo
3/8/2011-9:52am at 9:52 am (UTC -4)
And I agree with Pedro being overrated, way way way overrated. (on the Mets, not overall)
TRS86
3/8/2011-10:10am at 10:10 am (UTC -4)
Exactly, Pedro WAS a beast. Kind of like the Carter debate. Carter WAS a best before becoming a Met and then tailed off VERY quickly.
kingman 26
3/8/2011-10:37am at 10:37 am (UTC -4)
Carter gave the Mets much more than Pedro did.
TRS86
3/8/2011-10:45am at 10:45 am (UTC -4)
No doubt Kingman. Not really comparing that.
stickguy
3/8/2011-9:51am at 9:51 am (UTC -4)
Back to the well I see!
I don’t think this installment will be quite so controversial though!
Pedro is a good choice, but I would guess that you will get a pretty big spread of “ratedness” by the fans (that is, wildly different perspectives on how he is considered).
certainly he was just a shell of his former self with the Mets, at least after his 1st 1/2 year, and killed them by missing so much important time.
TRS86
3/8/2011-9:52am at 9:52 am (UTC -4)
Yeah I have more but doing them one at a time with no particular order. LOL.
metsfan4decades
3/8/2011-10:15am at 10:15 am (UTC -4)
Absolutely agree with Johan being underrated. If ever there was a hard luck pitcher on the Mets, it’s him. He’s gotten zero run support for the most part and/or the BP blew a lead. I believe of the first 12 starts he had last year, most he got into at least the 7th, if not the 8th and came away with what? 2 wins? A handful of losses and no decisions.
Regarding Pedro…I’m on the fence with this one. I agree with the ‘intangibles’ for the signing but as far as his actual pitching record? Eh….not so good.
Dirtysanchez
3/8/2011-10:24am at 10:24 am (UTC -4)
Always held Johan to a high regard so for me he isnt underrated. That shutout he pitched against the marlins to keep us alive in 2008 was one of the most emotional performance that ive seen in quite some time….that will forever make me a fan of his no matter what.
As far as Pedro…I dont know about being “overrated”. He was clearly passed his prime when he joined the mets, same with glavine. I think pedro was more about credibility and intangibles for Omar more than an “ace” signing. Ill always be a fan of pedro because I think he has done well for dominicans in the game but imo…you saw what you were going to get with pedro.
TRS86
3/8/2011-10:32am at 10:32 am (UTC -4)
While true, at least (except for the last game) to me Glavine produced as expected as a Met.
Dirtysanchez
3/8/2011-10:40am at 10:40 am (UTC -4)
Yea but his best days were in a braves uni I believe(research pending)
TRS86
3/8/2011-10:48am at 10:48 am (UTC -4)
No doubt but I do not think anyone expected him to come over and even be 1B. We got pretty much what he had been for the previous 4 years.
kingman 26
3/8/2011-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
No research necessary!
His best days/seasons were ALL in a Braves uni.
Much like Pedro!
TRS86
3/8/2011-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
Pedro pitched for the Braves?
kingman 26
3/8/2011-11:46am at 11:46 am (UTC -4)
LOL! Well, of course I meant they were both better before their Met careers.
But yeah, not clearly enunciated.
kingman 26
3/8/2011-10:36am at 10:36 am (UTC -4)
Could not agree more on Pedro; a signing not as bad as Ollie, but close.
An incredible waste of money.
And yes, Johan has been really good, but not as good as he was in MN, and he has been hurt and declining for two years.
TRS86
3/8/2011-10:50am at 10:50 am (UTC -4)
Hard to say that Johan has been declining for 2 years when his ERA last year was 2.98 with 4 complete games in 29 starts and almost 200 innings.
Health declining? Maybe. Ability certainly looked fine last year.
TRS86
3/8/2011-10:52am at 10:52 am (UTC -4)
Also, stat wise his 3 years with the Mets are very comparable if not better than his last 3 years with the Twins. Obviously the difference is innings due to the missed starts that mostly came in 2009.
kistics
3/8/2011-12:04pm at 12:04 pm (UTC -4)
I think the reason why Johan has been overlooked is because of his # of Ks going down and he doesn’t throw 95-96mph.
kingman 26
3/8/2011-11:04am at 11:04 am (UTC -4)
Stat-wise his last three years in MN are much better across the board than his three years here. Not to mention taking home park and the DH into consideration.
Not sure why you would say this—except for his ERA in 2007, every significant stat was much better in those last three years in MN—WHIP, H, BB, K–everything.
The WHIP was MUCH better in MN.
Whatcha talkin bout Willis??
TRS86
3/8/2011-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
ERA last 3 years with the Mets 2.85
ERA last 3 years with Twins 2.99
Yeah I know the DH but you also have to factor in division in AL as well.
“stat wise his 3 years with the Mets are very comparable if not better than his last 3 years with the Twins”
So in my opinion they are very comparable across the board and in the case of ERA, better. Looking at ERA+ it appears that he was slightly better with the Twins during at span 148 to 143.
kingman 26
3/8/2011-11:46am at 11:46 am (UTC -4)
This is not an opinion, this is a numbers thing.
WHIP–all 3 MN years significantly better than all 3 Met years.
K–all 3 MN years significantly better than all 3 Met years.
H–all 3 MN years significantly better than all 3 Met years.
BB–all 3 MN years significantly better than all 3 Met years.
G–MN–33/34/33
—-Mets-34/25/29
ERA–2 of the 3 MN years better than all 3 Met years.
And again, he played in a much better hitter’s park, and in a league with the DH.
In both quantity and quality, he was, clearly, a better pitcher in his last three MN years than his three Met years.
TRS86
3/8/2011-12:35pm at 12:35 pm (UTC -4)
I guess your definition of significant and mine are different.
1.013 WHIP compared to 1.175, 7.2 H/9 compared to 8.1, 1.0 HR/9 compared to .9. 1.9 BB/9 compared to 2.5.
Most do favor the Min years except for ERA but not significantly in my opinion. Not a big deal. I still stand behind my quote.
kingman 26
3/9/2011-9:02am at 9:02 am (UTC -4)
“Also, stat wise his 3 years with the Mets are very comparable if not better than his last 3 years with the Twins.”
So, a 10% decrease in most stats across the board supports your quote.
OK.
TRS86
3/9/2011-9:24am at 9:24 am (UTC -4)
No but an 8.564 % would. LOL.
Again, what you determine as significant I do not. No biggie. ERA is 9.5% better LOL.
kingman 26
3/9/2011-9:49am at 9:49 am (UTC -4)
If we lived close enough to get together for a drink, we could probably happily debate this for 3 hours!
TRS86
3/9/2011-10:26am at 10:26 am (UTC -4)
Nah, I don’t have the stamina anymore. 3 hours of drinking would most likely render me incomprehensible.
stickguy
3/9/2011-10:51am at 10:51 am (UTC -4)
3 hours? At this age, 3 drinks and I am iffy for the next day!
kingman 26
3/9/2011-10:59am at 10:59 am (UTC -4)
Wow, I am 44 and I can drink all night still!
I do eat right and stay in shape though—eating right and lots of exercise helps you be able to drink bourbon or tequila all night well into an advanced age…
TRS86
3/9/2011-11:03am at 11:03 am (UTC -4)
Nah everything I do I do it with fervor. Thus 3 hours would be a lot of drinks my friend.
kingman 26
3/9/2011-11:22am at 11:22 am (UTC -4)
HAHA! Me too!
Well, maybe someday I will be flying through Charlotte and have a few hour layover and we can see–the first hour is on me!
TRS86
3/9/2011-11:27am at 11:27 am (UTC -4)
Hey, Stick keeps telling me he’s coming down. I have a free room right down town waiting on you guys.
kingman 26
3/9/2011-11:39am at 11:39 am (UTC -4)
I do fly through there occasionally, so trust me, next time I will be in touch!
TRS86
3/9/2011-7:41am at 7:41 am (UTC -4)
I can’t believe that no one noticed the goat that is Castillo. LOL.