In case you didn’t know the Buffalo Bisons had their Hot Stove edition of Inside Bisons Baseball that aired on WWKB 1520 AM Radio the official voice of Buffalo Bisons Baseball!. If you missed it The Bisons posted audio of the show.
Bisons Season Preview II
Sunday, March 27th – Bisons manager Tim Teufel, Mets GM Sandy Alderson, Ruben Tejada (SS) and Justin Turner (2B) leadoff the show.
Audio courtesy of Bisonsblog.mlblogs.com
Bisons Season Preview II
Sunday, March 27th – Bisons include Dillon Gee (RHP), Fernando Martinez (OF), Jesus Feliciano (OF) and Mets manager Terry Collins.
Audio courtesy of Bisonsblog.mlblogs.com
Bisons Season Preview II
Sunday, March 27th – Bisons Tobi Stoner (RHP), Jason Pridie (OF), Kirk Nieuwenhuis (OF) and former manager, now Mets bench coach Ken Oberkfell.
Audio courtesy of Bisonsblog.mlblogs.com
Mar 28
Audio: Listen To Hot Stove Edition Of Inside Bisons Baseball
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MLBTradeRumors
- Yankees Acquire Reid Brignac
- Quick Hits: Brignac, Mariners, Odorizzi
- Contract Extensions Changing The Free Agent Market
- Marlins Designate Jon Rauch For Assignment
- AL East Notes: Yankees, Orioles, Ishikawa
- Twins Release Rafael Perez
- Draft Notes: Gray, Manaea, Twins, White Sox
- Padres Don't Intend To Trade Chase Headley
- Padres Designate Thad Weber For Assignment
- A's Designate Chris Resop For Assignment
140 comments
stickguy
3/28/2011-12:42am at 12:42 am (UTC -4)
there is actually a decent chance that the Bisons have a very good team this year. At least the offensive side of it!
tejada and havens in the MI. Duda, F mart, kirk? in the OF. Lutz maybe at 3B.
Mr North Jersey
3/28/2011-1:10am at 1:10 am (UTC -4)
If thats the case then can you say winner winner chicken dinner? Oh wait I think you already did.
kingman 26
3/28/2011-9:02am at 9:02 am (UTC -4)
Well, they sure beat the Phils’ AAA team in at least 8 of 9 positions.
The Phils’ AAA team is ancient, injury-prone, over payroll, and clearly built to win now.
TRS86
3/28/2011-9:29am at 9:29 am (UTC -4)
Kingman, I know you are making light of this but how would you do the individual hitter rankings between the two teams? There is no doubt the Phillies are a better team than the Mets, in fact they had better be or all kinds of people are getting fired. They are built to win now and if they don’t all hell will break loose. However how would you break down the CURRENT position battle?
1B? Howard vs Ike: Howard
2B? Castillo vs Emaus and company: Push to slightly Emaus and company
SS? Rollins vs Reyes: Reyes by a landslide. Even a down Reyes slaughtered the guy formerly known as Rollins.
3B? Placebo vs Wright: Clear Met advantage by more than anyone else on the either team.
C: Ruiz vs Thole: ? Uh… Ruiz right now. I think that he hit way over his head last year but not sure if Thole can hit consistently either.
LF: Ibanez vs Bay: ? LOL, uh can I take the field? Push at best. At least Bay is healthy.
CF: Vicki vs Pagan. This is where I think we will disagree. I think Pagan is very solid and will match Vicki in terms of overall production, especially counting defense. However, I will call it a push for sake of argument.
RF: Beltran, Hairston, Harris,etc vs Fransisco/ everyone else. Honestly until we know that Beltran IS officially out then the advantage goes to the Mets. That may not take long. Even then not sure that you can count Fransisco as an advantage.
So lets see where that leaves us 3-2-3 based on my counts. Now obviously that slight edge does not make up for the pitching. However, doing it this way also does not measure how MUCH better certain guys are over others. Offensively Howard is MUCH better than Davis but to the same extent of how much Reyes will likely be over Rollins or Wright will be over an injured Placebo?
metsfan4decades
3/28/2011-9:37am at 9:37 am (UTC -4)
‘The guy formally known as Rollins’….LOL.
I know you didn’t ask me but don’t think I disagree with your basic analysis, position by position and starting pitching staff. I didn’t see the BP mentioned but right now I’d have to go advantage Mets, simply for the fact that we have a healthy, established closure and a good one at that. With no closure, not only are you scrambling at this late date to replace him, but it messes up the BP in general until they can figure out who closes.
I’m just not a fan of these position by position matchups – except pitching.
With the way the Phillies current roster is shaking out, I don’t see much protection for Howard as in years past. Don’t you think that’s going to affect his hitting somewhat?
Right now the Mets have the healthier, younger team – even considering Johan and Beltran. The other position players and pitchers we’re starting the year with are all healthy. Not sure the same can be said about the Phillies with the question marks on Polanco, to start with.
TRS86
3/28/2011-9:42am at 9:42 am (UTC -4)
Yeah basically I can sum it up with
Phillies: Classic Win Now or start slashing team.
Mets: Classic competitive now but a couple of years away team.
kingman 26
3/28/2011-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
Again, there’s no way we will agree.
Have you actually viewed Vicky and Pagan’s careers? Pagan has ONE full year, with stats almost as good as Vicky’s every year (and Gold Glove.) And this is a push at best?
Beltran? If he was a Phil you’d have him out for the year.
Bay’s healthy? With back issues in late March? If someone on the Phils had back issues just like Bay’s you guys would be writing the player’s obituary. But since it is a Met, well, he’s healthy.
Reyes is a landslide? Uh, not yet he’s not.
And should Emaus play ONE MLB game before we evaluate him as an MLB player??
Why do you guys enjoy this so much?
I just don’t get it.
And how many years will you say they are built to “win now?”
Yes, eventually you will all be right.
I sincerely hope it is this year, but I seriously doubt it.
metsfan4decades
3/28/2011-10:49am at 10:49 am (UTC -4)
I think you’re overstating Bay’s ‘back issues’. He got a 2 day rest – same as Pagan – for some back stiffness. Bay’s in the lineup today. Until I hear otherwise for sure, I’m not writing Bay off as an injury concern.
Why do we enjoy this so much? I can’t speak for real, but I hate the Phillies. ‘Respect’ and the Phillies aren’t in my vocabulary.
I’m gonna take a page out of Stick’s book here, just for sheer enjoyment:
The Phils are going down, dude. You heard it here first!
kingman 26
3/28/2011-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
LOL!
Hey, I don’t care for them winning, but I do respect them. They have done every damn thing right for the last 5 years, and it really aggravates me.
But come on—if Howard sat out two days with back issues?
You and Stick would be sending flowers to his retirement party!!
TRS86
3/28/2011-11:20am at 11:20 am (UTC -4)
Wow, that’s not very accurate of me at all Kingman. To me my look was very realistic. At best I think you could go 3-3-2? Did you not read the part where I said that clearly the Phillies were a better team?
As far as Reyes not yet being a landslide over Rollins? Even last year’s Reyes stats are a landslide over Rollins.
Reyes: .282 .321 .428 .749 103
Rollins: .243 .320 .374 .694 86
TRS86
3/28/2011-11:26am at 11:26 am (UTC -4)
Vicki: .259 .327 .429 .756 102
Pagan: .290 .340 .425 .765 108
I think it’s fair to compare them. Of course you can say that Pagan has not proved himself. Even though in the last 2 years in over 1000 PA he has hit .296 .344 .448 .792.
I agree the jury is still out on him but it’s leaning heavily towards an everyday player.
kingman 26
3/28/2011-11:32am at 11:32 am (UTC -4)
Victorino has been an everyday player for five years. Three Gold Gloves.
You are comparing Pagan’s ONE year as an everyday player to Victorino’s weakest year, and declaring them equal.
And again, Pagan’s year wildly fluctuated, and he was awful the last two months. Which could mean that the league figured him out pretty quickly once he played every day, and/or, due to his career of physical issues, he was tired and worn down by August.
oleosmirf
3/28/2011-11:40am at 11:40 am (UTC -4)
you also need to factor in the homefield advantage Victorino enjoys making him a double digit HR guy.
I will give Victorino the edge simply out of consistency but if Pagan puts up similar numbers to last season (or 2009) early on then Pagan gets the edge
tkfj2
3/28/2011-11:43am at 11:43 am (UTC -4)
Gold Gloves are subjective, just last season Pagan held a better UZR, UZR/150, and significant advantage in range than Victorino.
World Series rings also don’t magically make a player better.
I’ll agree that it remains to be seen if Pagan can duplicate his performance, but he was better last year in the field and at the plate.
TRS86
3/28/2011-11:44am at 11:44 am (UTC -4)
“I think it’s fair to compare them. ”
Again, I think that it’s a push. I may turn out to be wrong. You think it’s a clear adv for Vicki. OK so factor that in.
TRS86
3/28/2011-11:50am at 11:50 am (UTC -4)
Right TK and I am not even a big fan of UZR. However, it’s a much better judge of defense than GG. Perhaps best thing is to take the look test to go along with it. I think Pagan has much more range and at times takes a strange route to the ball. I think Vicki’s range has decreased but because of experience is able to make up for it. Thus defensively I would consider them even.
kingman 26
3/28/2011-12:16pm at 12:16 pm (UTC -4)
Who said WS rings make players better?
How did UZR do in evaluating Jason Bay as a fielder?
tkfj2
3/28/2011-12:37pm at 12:37 pm (UTC -4)
You are right that UZR has flaws no doubt, but the differences between Victorino and Pagan are pretty stark, which is why I mentioned it.
TRS86
3/28/2011-12:49pm at 12:49 pm (UTC -4)
Kingman, you know how I feel about UZR. It’s not great at all but it has something we can use as a comparison tool. It is much better than using GG as a comparison.
kingman 26
3/28/2011-11:35am at 11:35 am (UTC -4)
Well, while I very rarely say or think this on a site dedicated to debate, I have to ask—what is the point here?
Emaus has never played in an MLB game.
Pagan was worn out and awful the last two months of his first full year as a starter.
Bay over Ibanez?
All of this is hugely iffy.
What’s the point?
OK, the Mets have several everyday players who are better than their counterparts in Philly.
We also have several everyday players better than their counterparts with the Giants.
Are we going to be anywhere near as good as either of those teams with their amazing starting pitching?
How did the 1969 Orioles’ starting 8 compare to the 1969 Mets’ starting 8?
How did the 2010 Giants’ starting 8 compare to the 2010 Rangers’ starting 8?
It’s just totally irrelevant, even if you ARE right.
TRS86
3/28/2011-11:48am at 11:48 am (UTC -4)
“There is no doubt the Phillies are a better team than the Mets, in fact they had better be or all kinds of people are getting fired.”
Of course the Phillies are better than the Mets. However, stating that Stick’s look at the lineups is totally irrational is not really true either.
If you want to look at pitching matchups one by one we can do that too. Of course how much of a debate or fun would that be? Maybe we can look at bench and bullpen as well?
What’s the point of it? Well not much. What’s the point of any of this? Well not much. Just something to talk about.
One thing that it may point out however, is that regardless of if the Mets can do anything to challenge, the Phillies currently have some holes and are not as invincible looking as they were in December.
wannybackstra
3/28/2011-11:49am at 11:49 am (UTC -4)
Positional head to head comparisons win World Series every year. Don’t ya know?
TRS86
3/28/2011-11:53am at 11:53 am (UTC -4)
LOL, not at all. In fact I have stated here that I am not a very big fan of them in general because they have no way of measuring how much better one player is at the spot than the other. As I said earlier is the difference between Howard and Ike off-set by the difference in Wright and Placebo or Reyes and Rollins. There is just no way of knowing.
This is indeed a pointless exercise but if we are playing it we might as well be realistic.
wannybackstra
3/28/2011-11:56am at 11:56 am (UTC -4)
TRS — it just seems to me that we are always trying to come up with some reason to believe we are as good as the Phillies. Last year it was because their bench was weaker than the Mets (which turned out to be mostly untrue anyway). This is just another meaningless way to try to bridge the gap.
If you’re going to do a positional comparison, the most meaningful place to do so is in an area where the Mets lose 5-0.
TRS86
3/28/2011-12:02pm at 12:02 pm (UTC -4)
That can’t be true in my case Wanny as I opened by saying
“There is no doubt the Phillies are a better team than the Mets, in fact they had better be or all kinds of people are getting fired.”
kingman 26
3/28/2011-12:05pm at 12:05 pm (UTC -4)
Well, this is where I am going here.
What the hell does it mean?
TRS is so very desperate to find SOME way to say the Mets are better, regardless of how debatable, subjective, or utterly meaningless it is.
What’s next, whose hamburgers are better? Is the Shake Shack better than Luzinski’s barbecue? Are the bourbon pours more generous in the Acela Club than in the Phils’ comparable club? Whose bathrooms smell less?
It means ZIP.
Starting pitching is generally the most important thing, and they beat us up, down, and all around.
kingman 26
3/28/2011-12:08pm at 12:08 pm (UTC -4)
“This is indeed a pointless exercise but if we are playing it we might as well be realistic.”
BINGO!
Then please stop saying Pagan–a player with ONE full season under his belt who totally wilted in August and September is so good, and please don’t say anything about Emaus, who at age 25 is about to play his very first MLB game, and might hit .100 and be gone by May 1.
And Beltran’s health? What’s the realistic thing to say about that?
TRS86
3/28/2011-12:26pm at 12:26 pm (UTC -4)
Wow, Kingman.
“TRS is so very desperate to find SOME way to say the Mets are better, regardless of how debatable, subjective, or utterly meaningless it is.”
Seriously? I did not even start this debate. I only said that if we were going to participate in a faulty exercise we might as well do it rationally. I thought my look above that rated our lineups pretty even, was at least rational.
TRS86
3/28/2011-12:27pm at 12:27 pm (UTC -4)
As for Pagan? Saying he is so good? I said that to me he and Vicki are a push. To me that’s what it looks like. Yes Pagan has to continue but I see no reason why he would not.
TRS86
3/28/2011-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
Also, as for the point? I think I answered that already.
“One thing that it may point out however, is that regardless of if the Mets can do anything to challenge, the Phillies currently have some holes and are not as invincible looking as they were in December.”
kingman 26
3/28/2011-12:36pm at 12:36 pm (UTC -4)
TRS, I made a smiley-face-joke to Stick, and you responded with a treatise.
Sure you started it.
And we can indeed go back and forth all day; let’s agree to disagree and move on, shall we?
I PROMISE I will be here eating crow all year if Pagan indeed shows he is as good as many seem to think he is.
TRS86
3/28/2011-12:43pm at 12:43 pm (UTC -4)
Nah, I have seen this debate on here for a few days. Just thought I would take a look at it myself. As kind of the middle ground between you and Stick.
Also, I am not saying Pagan is great. I am saying he is comparable to Vicki. Unless in turn you think Vicki is great?
kingman 26
3/28/2011-12:54pm at 12:54 pm (UTC -4)
No sir, I certainly do not think Vicky is great, and I think the team he is on has clearly made him better than he might be otherwise.
I do, however, think, that looking at their careers today, it is hard for me to say that Vicky is not clearly a better overall player than Pagan.
I certainly hope that is no longer the case in 6 months!
TRS86
3/28/2011-1:04pm at 1:04 pm (UTC -4)
Who is currently the better player? Push. Career? No doubt Vicki.
Again, for Vicki to be better than Pagan currently would mean that Vicki would have to rebound from last year and Pagan would have to fall off? Isn’t that as accurate as possible?
oleosmirf
3/28/2011-11:51am at 11:51 am (UTC -4)
everytime you mention Pagan at the end of last season you fail to mention how he batted .300 in the last 6 series to end the season…
one month of bad baseball does not override the other 5 months where he was fantastic and the fact that he finished strong gives more evidence to a bad slump then a fluke…
TRS86
3/28/2011-11:53am at 11:53 am (UTC -4)
or the 1000 PA?
kingman 26
3/28/2011-12:05pm at 12:05 pm (UTC -4)
It wasn’t one month, it was 2+ months.
We will soon see how great Pagan is.
kingman 26
3/28/2011-12:11pm at 12:11 pm (UTC -4)
Oleo, which of either April, August or Sept/Oct was he “fantastic”??
April: .257 .329 .365
August: .231 .257 .315
Sept/Oct: .274 .305 .336
Fantastic??
As Iniego Montoya once said, “I don’t think that means what you think it means.”
kingman 26
3/28/2011-12:14pm at 12:14 pm (UTC -4)
What the hell is it about Pagan that makes people write more nonsense hyperbole about him than any other player??
He was not CLOSE to “fantastic” except in May and July, and he was very good in June.
Have we become so downtrodden as fans that we must elevate a good player with ONE pretty good full year under his belt at almost age 30 into something he most clearly has not yet shown that he is??
metsfan4decades
3/28/2011-12:21pm at 12:21 pm (UTC -4)
How many ABs contributed to those Pagan numbers in April?
Just asking b/c he wasn’t the starting anything until we got rid of a couple of players.
I wanted to respond to one of Wanny’s comments but I’ve lost the thread of where we are at b/c these are so nested.
Again, I’m not going to speak for real but my purpose was to point out IMO, the Phillies are no where near a lock for this division. I think the race is going to be a lot closer than was first predicted. I think the Braves have a very good shot at winning this division.
I was by no means saying the Mets right now are better than the Phillies.
oleosmirf
3/28/2011-12:23pm at 12:23 pm (UTC -4)
now break up the months in two and you will see he was very good in early august, very bad in late august, very bad in early september and very good in late Sept/early October.
you are assuming he was bad for all of august when in reality he was just out of sync for 35 game stretch that just so happened to be most of august and early september
oleosmirf
3/28/2011-11:34am at 11:34 am (UTC -4)
Havens would be starting in AA no? doesnt really make sense to start him AAA when Turner is there (with Satin backing up) and he’s only had a handful of AB at AA.
He should be in AA for 4-8 weeks and then hopefully he plays well enough (and long enough) to be called up to AAA and by the all-star break we will have our franchise 2B…
TRS86
3/28/2011-7:21am at 7:21 am (UTC -4)
They have a lot of depth not usually seen at the AAA level. Would not be surprised to see Havens start in AA. Actually that may be best anyway.
TRS86
3/28/2011-7:26am at 7:26 am (UTC -4)
“more industry sources believe he (Evans) will clear than be claimed — especially if the Mets wait until in-season to place Evans on waivers, because other teams’ 25- and 40-man rosters are largely full at that point. ”
I tend to agree
metsfan4decades
3/28/2011-7:35am at 7:35 am (UTC -4)
I just read that too. Good for the Mets but probably bad for Evans. I’m sure he’d like the chance to actually make a big league club this spring. Given half a chance, I still think Evans could make a nice utility player.
TRS86
3/28/2011-8:30am at 8:30 am (UTC -4)
I just think we are overrating him a little. The guy has had almost no success above the AA level. AAA (.249 .319 .467 .786)
And while the BA was pretty in his time in the big’s last year there was little more than the BA with 1 HR and 1BB in 37 PA.
metsfan4decades
3/28/2011-8:34am at 8:34 am (UTC -4)
Maybe. I don’t want to go much by last years big league numbers as I don’t think Jerry gave him half the chance he could have.
If we do lose him through waivers than so be it, not much you can do about it.
TRS86
3/28/2011-9:14am at 9:14 am (UTC -4)
While I would prefer to keep him, honestly there is just no spot for him on the team.
TRS86
3/28/2011-8:39am at 8:39 am (UTC -4)
We also have to keep in mind that not all players (especially rookies) can adapt to being PH. I still think the best thing for Evans and the Mets would be a trade.
Ceetar
3/28/2011-11:02am at 11:02 am (UTC -4)
Is it worth the risk to just let him go though?
I think Evans has something to contribute, I’d hate to just lose him for nothing. All these industries sources have done, at best, is look at rosters and project that Evans probably wouldn’t fit in, but they don’t actually know the thinking of 29 other GMs (and assistant GMs you might see Evans on waivers and say ‘hey, I think that might help’) about a 26th guy on a roster.
TRS86
3/28/2011-11:27am at 11:27 am (UTC -4)
As far as I know they could pull him back if another team claimed him.
Ceetar
3/28/2011-11:35am at 11:35 am (UTC -4)
if they pull him back they have to keep him on the major league roster the entire year. Can’t place a guy on waivers again if you pull them back. As much as I wouldn’t want to lose him for nothing, creating that type of inflexibility might be worse.
TRS86
3/28/2011-11:41am at 11:41 am (UTC -4)
What’s the difference? If they place him on waivers and he gets claimed and they let him go he’s gone. If they don’t place him on waivers now then he has to be placed on waivers to be sent down. Eventually a guy out of options is out of options and will have to be exposed unless he has a spot on the team.
Ceetar
3/28/2011-12:05pm at 12:05 pm (UTC -4)
because if you wait say 2-3-4 weeks you have more information to judge on. Without losing anything. Or more time to trade him without waivers.
oleosmirf
3/28/2011-12:26pm at 12:26 pm (UTC -4)
and who should go down so we can “evaluate” Evans???
the guy is never going to be a starter here and bench players with pop that only hit LHP are easy to find…
Ceetar
3/28/2011-12:27pm at 12:27 pm (UTC -4)
Murphy? ditch Harris? *shrug* whatever works out best. This is hardly a clear cut and obvious solution, or it’d already be done.
TRS86
3/28/2011-12:35pm at 12:35 pm (UTC -4)
He’s here in case Beltran has to go on the DL or in case he can clear waivers. Harris and Hairston have already made the team.
metsfan4decades
3/28/2011-7:33am at 7:33 am (UTC -4)
I didn’t know these guys referred to Terry as ‘TC’.
Thanks for the links. I listened to all the interviews. Learned alot. Didn’t pay much attention to most of the guys down there last season so I didn’t know that Stoner and Pridie were hurt to that extent. I knew Stoner was struggling big time but thought well….he just wasn’t panning out. Turns out he wound up with surgery.
Will this be the year FMart actually stays on the field all season? Stay tuned….
metsfan4decades
3/28/2011-11:18am at 11:18 am (UTC -4)
ST game rained out today.
On that note….the weather up here better start warming up soon. I know we open in FL but we’re in Philly on the 4th and home on the 8th.
Wish I had Citi opening day tickets but if I did, can’t say I’d look forward to sitting in 40 degree weather that night.
Ceetar
3/28/2011-11:26am at 11:26 am (UTC -4)
Honestly I just hope it’s still as warm as 40 at 7pm.
metsfan4decades
3/28/2011-11:29am at 11:29 am (UTC -4)
Bundled up! I’d suggest a flask full of brandy.
Ceetar
3/28/2011-11:36am at 11:36 am (UTC -4)
Brandy’s not my thing. heh. I do own a flask though. wonder if that would be a no-no through the gates.
TRS86
3/28/2011-11:40am at 11:40 am (UTC -4)
Then you have not had a good peach brandy then.
metsfan4decades
3/28/2011-11:43am at 11:43 am (UTC -4)
I’m a big, all day coffee drinker and I routinely spike my after work mug with brandy. Hmmm…nothing better.
stickguy
3/28/2011-12:35pm at 12:35 pm (UTC -4)
our tax dollars at work!
Ceetar
3/28/2011-12:07pm at 12:07 pm (UTC -4)
Well, that’s true. I actually haven’t had a lot of brandy period.
metsfan4decades
3/28/2011-11:42am at 11:42 am (UTC -4)
I haven’t been to Citi yet so I really don’t know.
I was kind of being facetious there as I thought any liquid filled container/bottle was a no-no.
Ceetar
3/28/2011-12:06pm at 12:06 pm (UTC -4)
the rule is unsealed containers not allowed (and I don’t think booze at all), but they’re not often that hardcore about searching.
Ceetar
3/28/2011-12:08pm at 12:08 pm (UTC -4)
I’m glad Pagan will officially be on the All-Star Ballot this year.
kingman 26
3/28/2011-12:15pm at 12:15 pm (UTC -4)
He’s almost as overrated as Mariano Rivera!
Ceetar
3/28/2011-12:20pm at 12:20 pm (UTC -4)
Pagan will have a better year, although it’s not easy to compare the two.
kingman 26
3/28/2011-12:21pm at 12:21 pm (UTC -4)
It is VERY easy to compare the two.
Prismo
3/28/2011-12:24pm at 12:24 pm (UTC -4)
I can’t tell, but I’ll assume Ceetar’s being sarcastic?
Ceetar
3/28/2011-12:26pm at 12:26 pm (UTC -4)
I meant in a WAR sense. Rivera’s 50IP max is probably not going to provide the value of a full time center fielder. It’s just the nature of the positions.
Prismo
3/28/2011-12:28pm at 12:28 pm (UTC -4)
WAR – what is it good for?
Prismo
3/28/2011-12:29pm at 12:29 pm (UTC -4)
But on the other hand, if you’re predicting Rivera will decline due to age or injury, you have the right to that opinion. So in that case, I could see Pagan having a better year.
Ceetar
3/28/2011-12:37pm at 12:37 pm (UTC -4)
WAR is probably the best stat we have to compare something like an AL closer on what’s likely to be a strong offensive team to a CF on a NL possibly weak pitching team.
And yes, I’m suggesting Pagan will have more value to the Mets than Rivera has to the Yankees.
metsfan4decades
3/28/2011-12:28pm at 12:28 pm (UTC -4)
How is Mariano overrated?
Prismo
3/28/2011-12:28pm at 12:28 pm (UTC -4)
Kingman was DEFINITELY being sarcastic.
I can’t remember if it was Ceetar or someone else, but awhile back someone said he was overrated.
Ceetar
3/28/2011-12:30pm at 12:30 pm (UTC -4)
I said ALL closers are overrated, which obviously includes the best. It doesn’t matter how good said best closer is, he’s a closer, the position is overrated, therefore the best closer is overrated.
kingman 26
3/28/2011-12:34pm at 12:34 pm (UTC -4)
Wrong!
TRS86
3/28/2011-12:37pm at 12:37 pm (UTC -4)
Not this again. Yes in general all closers are overrated. However there are exceptions to every rule and Mo just happens to be one GIANT exception to that rule.
Ceetar
3/28/2011-12:39pm at 12:39 pm (UTC -4)
that defies the very laws of logic. It’s not an arguing point. it’s a fact.
there aren’t exeptions to fact. if there is a case that there are closers that are not overrated, then the position is not overated, most of the players are. If you want to argue that, that’s a different point, and one most advanced analysis people would disagree with.
TRS86
3/28/2011-12:45pm at 12:45 pm (UTC -4)
Are you seriously arguing that there are not exceptions to the rule?
Ceetar
3/28/2011-12:55pm at 12:55 pm (UTC -4)
There is no such thing as expections to the laws of logic. I’m not Lewis Carroll, but I’ve studied this stuff some. Maybe you’re misinterpreting what I”m saying, but I don’t know how much clearer I can make it.
Simply, the amount of value that can be obtained from a 1 inning closer that pitches say 60-70 innings the entire season is limited, and the value of those innings is overstated by many/most. Even if those innings were completely perfect.
Can one person do a REALLY REALLY GOOD job in those innings? yes. Sure, but that doesn’t make those innings more valuable than 60 innings can be.
And if their is an exception to that rule, than there will also exist the possibility to find an exception to the rule. the “next Rivera” if you will. There exists the potential to sign a player that is more valuable and therefore not overrated. Therefore the position is not overrated since there exists the possibility to put a player there that makes it not overrated.
But to go back to my Pagan point, a CF is almost always going to be more valuable due to his position and his playingtime. Bernie Williams, not a hall of famer, put up post 5 WARs with the Yankees 5 times, Rivera did it once, in ’96 (and he wasn’t even a closer!)
stickguy
3/28/2011-1:03pm at 1:03 pm (UTC -4)
in this particular type of debate, I think what gets overlooked most times is the replacement factor.
That is, if either player was not there, who capably would you be able to replace them with another one, and how much difference would there be in results?
TRS86
3/28/2011-1:08pm at 1:08 pm (UTC -4)
“is almost always going to be more valuable due to his position and his playingtime. ”
Agreed and meet almost always…. HOF Rivera.
Of course there could be the “next” Mo. There could also be the “next” Babe.
You can make a clear case for Mo to have been the best pitcher of this entire generation.
TRS86
3/28/2011-1:10pm at 1:10 pm (UTC -4)
Also, one thing that WAR can’t take into account is how valuable that person is because of the situation. It treats a closer just as another non-starting pitcher. A closer in NY will never be just another non-starting pitcher.
Prismo
3/28/2011-12:58pm at 12:58 pm (UTC -4)
Haha, definitely not getting into any of these arguments again. Been there, done that. What else can we talk about?
kingman 26
3/28/2011-12:34pm at 12:34 pm (UTC -4)
+ many for Prismo!
metsfan4decades
3/28/2011-12:38pm at 12:38 pm (UTC -4)
Oh. lol, right over my head.
stickguy
3/28/2011-12:39pm at 12:39 pm (UTC -4)
I see you people spent much of the morning arguing about Knog’s BFF team.
Geez, a simple statement that the Phils lineup is a shell of what it used to be, and that the Mets have better players at many positions (and the lineup, 1-8, for the Mets is better) got 2 days of play!
Mr North Jersey
3/28/2011-12:41pm at 12:41 pm (UTC -4)
kingman 26
3/28/2011-12:42pm at 12:42 pm (UTC -4)
Because it is so meaningless!!
Mr North Jersey
3/28/2011-12:47pm at 12:47 pm (UTC -4)
Imagine all the comments if it had meaning?
TRS86
3/28/2011-12:53pm at 12:53 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, as meaningless as it all is, guess what MLBNetwork basically did all off-season. Just that. Whose lineup would you take?… whose is the best in the division? Whose bp…
kingman 26
3/28/2011-12:57pm at 12:57 pm (UTC -4)
TRS—What exactly is the MLB network going to do to fill airtime all offseason?
Seriously—in baseball these things mean so much less than, say, football or basketball.
TRS86
3/28/2011-1:12pm at 1:12 pm (UTC -4)
Kingman, what exactly are we going to do to fill airtime all off-season?
Also, I would beg to differ on the comparison to football. It’ is very difficult in football for one player’s advantage over another at the same position to ever make any difference at all in football.
Basketball? No doubt as the SG is actually guarding the SG more times than not.
kingman 26
3/28/2011-12:56pm at 12:56 pm (UTC -4)
HAHA!!!
stickguy
3/28/2011-12:43pm at 12:43 pm (UTC -4)
also, you can not overlook the fact that rosters are fluid. They often look quite different at the end of the year than the beginning, so you can’t predict what a team does based on 1 articular guy sucking.
so if Emaus is a total dud, he won’t be around long. The mets won’t have 6 months of him playing worse than Castillo last year, there will be someone else in the job.
Same argument last year about the SP. Many people wrote off the chances of the Met rotation being any good because Maine and Ollie were in it, ignoring the fact (that happened) that if they were as bad as feared, they would disappear quickly!
TRS86
3/28/2011-12:47pm at 12:47 pm (UTC -4)
While true, the same could be said about the Phillies. As a win now team even if they have to completely mortgage the future they will be looking to fill these big time holes. Otherwise they are wasting a lot of talent.
metsfan4decades
3/28/2011-12:51pm at 12:51 pm (UTC -4)
Speaking of Castillo, I hope he’s the Phills starting 2nd baseman all year.
Ceetar
3/28/2011-12:55pm at 12:55 pm (UTC -4)
I hope they don’t take him north and go with Wilson Valdez and then desperately sign Eckstein in May.
metsfan4decades
3/28/2011-12:44pm at 12:44 pm (UTC -4)
wow…you want to change the subject? For a change of pace….
Let’s start debating the Yankees vs. the Mets. I’ll bet Kingman won’t use the word ‘respect’ in any debate having to do with the Yankees.
Ceetar
3/28/2011-1:00pm at 1:00 pm (UTC -4)
I like the moves the Yankees did to round out their rotation, mostly, but I don’t think anyone’s gonna return to former glory and I don’t like Nova much. I doubt Burnett has much of a bounceback year either.
They’ll still hit, and their bullpen is certainly nice, so I expect a lot of slugged out wins with occasional bouts of losing when the offense slumps or they run up against a couple of quality pitching performances.
kingman 26
3/28/2011-1:02pm at 1:02 pm (UTC -4)
HA!!
Well, I do respect this: I respect how the 1996–2000 teams were largely based on the amazing core they developed from great scouting and drafting—Jeter, Bernie, Posada, Pettitte, and the greatest clutch player of our time, Mariano “The Overrated” Rivera.
I respect George for taking risks and spending money to try to win. I respect the amazing job George did as a businessman.
However, I do NOT respect the 2009 title; I feel it was totally bought. And I feel the Yankees today make a mockery of the sport with their payroll.
The 1996–2000 teams were not even always the number one spender, and when they were, it was barely….nothing like the last few years.
Nothing in US team sports history has been like the way the Yanks have outspent everyone the last few years.
And Hank makes his father look like a cross between Einstein and Gandhi.
stickguy
3/28/2011-1:05pm at 1:05 pm (UTC -4)
On this, I agree with you 110%.
I still hate them of course.
metsfan4decades
3/28/2011-1:50pm at 1:50 pm (UTC -4)
+1
I’ll be curious how Nova does. He’s got like 50 innings of ML experience. They’ll be a lot of pressure on him.
wannybackstra
3/28/2011-2:06pm at 2:06 pm (UTC -4)
He only has to survive long enough for Kevin Millwood to get in shape.
stickguy
3/28/2011-2:35pm at 2:35 pm (UTC -4)
millwood pitching in that park. Should be fun!
Ceetar
3/28/2011-2:37pm at 2:37 pm (UTC -4)
I can’t see Millwood getting called up to be a good thing for the Yanks in any way.
TRS86
3/28/2011-1:16pm at 1:16 pm (UTC -4)
I really don’t have a problem with their 2009 championship. Did they or did they not play by the rules given to them? They went over the luxury tax and paid the consequences while reaping the rewards. To me to be mad at the Yankees for that would be to be mad at a child misbehaving in front of his parents while they do nothing to stop it.
If the consequences for robbing a bank were 1,000 fine and would increase each time you robbed a bank with no other repercussions what would you spend your time doing?
Ceetar
3/28/2011-2:08pm at 2:08 pm (UTC -4)
My problem is not ‘with them’ it’s with baseball and it’s inbalance.
TRS86
3/28/2011-2:16pm at 2:16 pm (UTC -4)
True but then again it has produced a system where even the Marlins and Rays can still be competitive and has actually had the most changeover in championship winners as any other major sport.
Ceetar
3/28/2011-2:25pm at 2:25 pm (UTC -4)
The way baseball works is you can spent to raise the probability you’ll win a championship, or you can draft wisely for a better shot. But it’s merely probability. But luck and unforseen things will never allow any team to purchase anything with a certainty (hey, doesn’t even look like that worked for the Miami heat)
The Yankees toss so many more balls into the chinese auction that it’s hard for them not to make it to the playoffs, and even though the Rays only tossed a handful in there, not impossible for their number to come up.
wannybackstra
3/28/2011-2:18pm at 2:18 pm (UTC -4)
What TRS said.
And “imbalance.”
kingman 26
3/28/2011-2:55pm at 2:55 pm (UTC -4)
“To me to be mad at the Yankees for that would be to be mad at a child misbehaving in front of his parents while they do nothing to stop it.”
Totally agreed; I would be frigin pissed at the a-hole parents, just as I think the structure of a sport which allows the Yanks to do what they do is weak and pathetic. Did not say I was “mad” at the Yanks; but I do think baseball is run very poorly, and there’s no way anyone can convince me that they “earned” their 2009 title on the field the same way they did in 1996 and 1998-2000, or how most teams do.
I don’t respect their title at all. If Omar had another 60 million to spend each of the last few years, I bet we would have more than one playoff appearance.
And this is why the NFL takes a larger market share of the US attention span/market for major US pro team sports every year and has been for 25 years now.
Because baseball (and to a lesser extent basketball) is run so very poorly.
Ceetar
3/28/2011-2:56pm at 2:56 pm (UTC -4)
yeah..football is run so smoothly?
Football is so interwined with a Sunday holiday and gambling that it doesn’t matter what they do.
kingman 26
3/28/2011-4:08pm at 4:08 pm (UTC -4)
Well Ceetar, I should know better than to argue with you, but the NFL has a salary cap see, and revenue sharing see, so in the NFL, throughout the Super Bowl era, teams from smaller markets such as Green Bay and Pittsburgh have won multiple titles in different eras.
The Jets played in their one Super Bowl over 40 years ago.
Los Angeles does not even have a team.
Yes, the national nature of the TV contract does somewhat make it easier to share revenue, but there is one MAJOR reason why the NFL shares revenue as it does, over the objections of the greedy selfish owners like Dallas’ Jerry Jones:
Because the league consists of owners who actually CARE about the sport, the sport having parity, and the sport’s popularity.
Football has many owners who gladly sacrifice some millions here and there for the betterment of the league overall.
This used to be an ethos much more popular in America than it is today, in sports and all kinds of businesses.
Saying “it doesn’t matter what they do” is such quintessential Ceetar.
If they ended revenue sharing and had a handful of teams control every free agent, the popularity of the NFL would definitely suffer.
In addition, in the NFL (and the NBA to a large degree) players like the true greats generally stay with their original team throughout the prime of their careers. There’s no such thing as a superstar carpetbagger like ARod who goes from team to team and ultimately has just one place to wind up.
The Mannings and Bradys of the league—the superstars–stay with their teams.
This, combined with parity, are the reasons why places like Green Bay and Pittsburgh can win AND keep their players and fans stay interested, while the Pittsburghs and KCs of baseball lose all of their players as well as their fans.
Learn some new things—I swear, it’s fun to learn!!!
TRS86
3/28/2011-4:11pm at 4:11 pm (UTC -4)
While true, they still have more repeat champion winners than baseball.
TRS86
3/28/2011-4:12pm at 4:12 pm (UTC -4)
Of course meant to preface that by saying in the last 20 years.
TRS86
3/28/2011-4:15pm at 4:15 pm (UTC -4)
To me there is no perfect pro system. The football system might care about the fans to some extent but their own players have about a 1.2 years life expectancy with very little guaranteed contract money. The basketball system still allows for mega teams like Miami and what will soon be a growing trend. Think of the legacies in basketball.
Also we can’t forget the fact that less games= more interest. Which is why football is not wise in extending the schedule and why Basketball and Baseball should both reduce their schedules.
kingman 26
3/28/2011-4:27pm at 4:27 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, and thank you for supporting my side!
If a team does things the right way, they are able–thanks to revenue sharing and the salary cap—to KEEP the team together.
Nothing happens like where the 1990s really good Pirates lose everyone due to money, or the current Pirates pocket revenue sharing dough and trade everyone away, or the Twins who under old ownership let everyone get away, or the old Expos who were a farm system for other wealthier teams.
Or when a player like Beltran reaches free agency, there’s zero chance the Royals keep him.
In the NFL, a small market team like Indy or GB or Pitt can afford to keep their stars and be competitive at a high level for years.
kingman 26
3/28/2011-4:31pm at 4:31 pm (UTC -4)
In the last 20 years I think 3 teams have won WS titles and 13 teams have won Super Bowls.
My point is that in baseball, almost all are won–especially more recently–by high spending teams.
Yankees and Red Sox have 7 of the last 15. Throw in Chicago, St Louis, Philly, Anaheim, SF.
And then Florida—again my point precisely—both title teams were broken up over money. And the first one was totally bought due to free agency, and the second one could not be kept together due to money.
Look at the NFL titles—New Orleans, Pittsburgh, Green Bay, Indianapolis, Tampa Bay, Baltimore….
The Marlins are the only small-market to win in the last 20 years in baseball, and they had their team broken up over money.
kingman 26
3/28/2011-4:32pm at 4:32 pm (UTC -4)
And I agree 100% over schedule length.
metsfan4decades
3/28/2011-1:55pm at 1:55 pm (UTC -4)
IDK…respect and George don’t mesh, IMO.
This is the same man who tried to pay an underworld figure to dig up dirt on Winfield.
George made a lot of money in his lifetime. I’m just not sure how much of it was from being smart as opposed to having the you-know-what to sink his own money into taking a chance.
kingman 26
3/28/2011-2:56pm at 2:56 pm (UTC -4)
Oh, I don’t disagree….I was perhaps listing the ONLY things I respect about George!
He could be hugely forgiving and hugely charitable, and he could be a slimy, lying, petty, vindictive SOB as well.
No doubt there.
Prismo
3/28/2011-1:03pm at 1:03 pm (UTC -4)
So..what’d you guys think of the fantasy draft last night?
I can’t say I’m thrilled with my team, but with 12 teams, it’s hard to be solid all-around.
TRS86
3/28/2011-1:14pm at 1:14 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, I have a lot of holes but came away feeling pretty good. Not as versatile as I would like but the key now is taking the tons of talent on the FA market and replacing some of what you just drafted. Risky but often rewarding.
Prismo
3/28/2011-1:27pm at 1:27 pm (UTC -4)
Well we face off week 1!
I can’t believe you have 4 starting Mets on your roster!
TRS86
3/28/2011-1:33pm at 1:33 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah that could change but when we were drafting everyone was staying away from them because they were Mets. Myself it has never bothered me. I thought I got good spots with them. Also if you are going to do it then 3B and SS are the places to do it. Not much talent there really. As for Pagan, I got him to be my backup OF. He can go on spurts and really help your team. Lets see, who else is on there?
Prismo
3/28/2011-1:51pm at 1:51 pm (UTC -4)
Well, I have Ike and Dickey, so I can’t really talk. They were two of my last picks though, and Dickey might be a goner at some point.
TRS86
3/28/2011-2:06pm at 2:06 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah I accidentally picked Thole. Was making a list of potential backup catchers when “your connection is off-line” and bam, Thole.
saltygary
3/28/2011-1:28pm at 1:28 pm (UTC -4)
Yea there is no versatility with a 12 team league. I would rather be offense heavy but all the talent was flying off the boards so I ended up grabbing pitchers.
MY biggest worry is Jeter. I have historically never drafted him because Yankee fans can never help themselves and he always goes too early. Last night if I didn’t grab Jeets the next in line was probably HU. I actually think Jeter will have his last good year. He is all pissed off and I feel he will put all his energy into proving the FO wrong. Just have to see if his age has another plan for him.
TRS86
3/28/2011-1:35pm at 1:35 pm (UTC -4)
Sure there is. You just need to pay more attention to guys like Zobrist who is listed at about 9 positions.
saltygary
3/28/2011-1:37pm at 1:37 pm (UTC -4)
Zobrist is my 2nd…Me payee attention
TRS86
3/28/2011-1:41pm at 1:41 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah I had him on the board and thought I could make it one more round.
tkfj2
3/28/2011-2:00pm at 2:00 pm (UTC -4)
http://vimeo.com/15445315
In response to all the Pagan drama
Pagan is not overrated, I don’t know anyone who said he was an All Star, yet. We were merely comparing him to another player, and then hyperbole ensued.
Watch the video.
TRS86
3/28/2011-2:27pm at 2:27 pm (UTC -4)
Nice highlight video. That should be used to get his next contract. LOL.
metsfan4decades
3/28/2011-4:38pm at 4:38 pm (UTC -4)
Very nice. Pagan more than deserves to be on the AS ballot this year.
Gee….I noticed with all those stat lists put up – and there were many, Victorino only made 2 of those, both behind Pagan.