" Is most of this tem expendable ? "
Last night’s game against the Rockies in my opinion was a must win game for Mike Pelfrey. He started off strong before allowing two solo homers. But he was able to buckle down and only surrendered one more run to the the team from Colorado for the next four and a third innings after that while K-ROD was able to secure the win. Big Pelf is now 3-3 with a ERA of 5.74, but the question that needs to be asked is if the Mets front office are willing to deal him or for that matter most of the Mets roster.
So I ask the question – IS EVERYBODY EXPENDABLE ?
We all know the rumors and reports that expect Beltran, Reyes and possibly Francisco Rodriguez to be gone by the time the trade deadline rolls around this July, but what about fan favorites such as David Wright and Ike Davis ? Would Sandy Alderson unload Jason Bay’s bloated contract to a willing partner ? What about R.A Dickey or Jason Isringhausen – last year and this years feel good stories ? If the Mets are totally out of it by the time the All Star Break comes and goes will we see a fire sale of the like we haven’t seen since the ’97 Marlins ?
If the answer to these questions is yes one more question has to be asked – Will the fans stand for it even if it means that fresh young talent will be imported, and it might help this team get back to contention quicker ? Will the Wilpons be able to stomach crowds the size of Foghat concerts? Because Citi Field will be just as empty as Shea was during the dark times that were the late ’70′s and early ’80′s. We already know that their bottom line is already hurting and a new minority partner will be named rather soon, but if a partial sell off of their top major league players do come to fruition , will it signal the 32 year reign of the Wilpon’s ?
It’s just something to ponder.
And with that said… HERE COMES THE INFAMY !!!!
Mets alumni celebrating a birthday today includes:
Back up first baseman from the ’84 season, Jerry Martin is 62 (1949) .
Mets pitcher from ’82-’84, Walt Terrell is 53 (1958). Walt is the only Mets player to hit a grand slam in both ends of a double header.
The New York Mets purchased the contract of utility man, Chuck Hiller from the San Francisco Giants on May 11, 1965. Chuck would go on to play three season with the Mets.
The New York Mets traded pitcher, Charlie Williams to the San Francisco Giants for Willie Mays on May 11, 1972. Although the Mets lost a good pitcher in Williams, it was the right thing bringing the ” Say Hey Kid” back the New York to finish out his career.
The New York Mets traded minor league outfielder, Ricky Nelson to the Cleveland Indians for once dominant relief pitcher, Don Schulze on May 11, 1987. Don was brought into help strengthen the Mets bullpen when it was racked by injuries that season.
The Pittsburgh Pirates claimed middle reliever, Mark Dewey of the New York Mets on waivers on May 11, 1993.
The New York Mets traded middle reliever, Mike Remlinger to the Cincinnati Reds for minor league outfielder, Cobi Cradle on May 11, 1995.
Mo Vaughn is very upset. He thought being in the higher altitude of Denver Colorado would make him weigh less on a scale – he was dead wrong !!
113 comments
stickguy
5/11/2011-9:23am at 9:23 am (UTC -4)
OK, I will play. Let’s assume no deals are happening for another 6 weeks or so (around July 1). And at that time, the Mets are ~10 below .500 and way off the playoff pace (IOW, not even fringe contenders).
in that case, about the only guys not on the table will be Davis (makes no sense to deal him), and probably Neise. Wright, also doubtful.
beyond that, I expect Sandy to listen (if not shop) every other body on the roster.
I actually would not be surprised to see Reyes stay, and trading wright as I said probably not.
Bay he would trade for a used banana peel, if you take most of the salary. K Rod, happy to move him. And of course Beltran will be shopped hard. They are the obvious ones.
beyond that, while they can’t trade all of them and still field a team, he will move some of hte rest to bring bodies back. If you are on a 1 year deal and not young and cheap, you are fair game. Buch, izzy, capuano, pagan, etc., make an offer.
The tricky one is actually Pelfrey. I think they keep him, but it would be a bold move to cut bait now.l Would have to be a surprisingly good return though. Dickey, not quite the same question. he is probably more available.
darknova306
5/11/2011-9:34am at 9:34 am (UTC -4)
It’s hard to imagine that Beltran won’t be traded, simply because letting him walk at the end of the year returns nothing to the team with that contractual inability to offer arb and get draft picks.
njstuckintx
5/11/2011-9:51am at 9:51 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, I with Stick on this. Ike is not for sale, and I’d hold onto Niese as much as possible (potential, salary, age).
From there, you make a list. Worst to Best. Wright probably tops the list of best, right on down to Willie Harris at the bottom. They are all available, and as you go up the list, the cost goes up. So, the Mets can’t find a decent deal for Wright, no biggie, you hold onto him as he has value. But, as used in example on MLBTR, the Tigers need a bat at 3rd, and they are willing to part with 2 major pitching prospects, a AA prospect, and A ball prospect and Inge with his contract. I don’t like Inge (I can see Fatcessa LOVING that move) all that much, but it gets you prospects and a ML body at 3rd for the time being, you need to make that move for the better of the club. Now, you start applying that theory right on down the line for every player, minus Ike & I guess Niese.
Regarding said tradeable list, what comes to mind is how high up Reyes would sit. Is he right below Wright, because he’s that good, or is he a little farther down as the Mets want to get something a little more than the 2 picks, but since they know they probably wont re-sign him (and i’m just guessing here, as I hope they do), maybe they are willing to move him for just the Moon and not the Moon, Stars and the Sun.
stickguy
5/11/2011-10:24am at 10:24 am (UTC -4)
wright would be tough to move, but if nothing else, it would certainly show that Sandy isn’t afraid to do something bold.
depending on who the prospects are, you have to seriously consider making that deal. I would even say you take some of the masive savings and redirect it to Reyes. Then you build the new core around reyes and Ike.
Inge would be a serviceable 3B stop gap. Not sure though how the couple of 3B prospects are doing these days (is it Lutz that looks like a real player, except he keeps getting hurt?
njstuckintx
5/11/2011-10:31am at 10:31 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, that’s kind of my point. I love Wright, with all his strengths and faults. But I think that the ups and the downs from the 80′s on up to today has taught me to root for the name on the front, not the name on the back. I’d be a pig in slop if somehow ‘Met Dynasty’ was followed by ‘Wright & Reyes’, but I’d take ‘Met Dynasty” followed by Milton Bradley & Brett Myers…
I’m not sure what to think of the Trade Wright, Re-Sign Reyes school of thought that is developing steam. Have to think on that one.
We can always have Go Big Murph at 3B…
darknova306
5/11/2011-9:29am at 9:29 am (UTC -4)
With Santana’s impending return next season, even if the team is in complete rebuild mode (as it should be), people will show up to Citi every fifth day. That said, whatever it takes to get the team back to contention is what needs to happen regardless of whining from the fans. Winning teams fill seats, and the Mets are not close to winning. Do what needs to be done, Sandy.
And I consider every major league player on the roster expendable outside of Ike. He’s the future face of the franchise in my eyes.
stickguy
5/11/2011-10:21am at 10:21 am (UTC -4)
winning helps. But people will also get sucked in by a young, building, energetic team. I think plenty of fans want a fresh start, and will respond to a few more guys along the lines of an Ike, Harvey if he comes up and looks like the real deal, etc.
rustyjr
5/11/2011-10:01am at 10:01 am (UTC -4)
I honestly want to see very little of the roster gone – just Beltran because we get no compensation when he turns f.a & bay because Bay at this point is a albatros
Dirtysanchez
5/11/2011-10:20am at 10:20 am (UTC -4)
I believe Sandy would definitely kick the tires on just about everyone except wright and ike. Beltran should be on his way out because as most have said, we dont get anything for him when he goes into FA. The good news about this is that beltran is playing VERY well and is pumping up his value. If sandy can find a dumb enough team to take bay, he needs to be gone too. I know the stats with him in the lineup yadda, yadda, yadda. Bay sucks and is not worth the 16 mil he is going to get every season. I see bay staying here…his contract is not marketable at all. Jose is the biggest cog in this thing. His value is literally sky high right now. If he keeps playing the way he has, he will command a nice return come the trade deadline.
The bottom line is, it all depends on sandy’s plan. He is not tipping his hand but im sure as we get closer to the trade deadline, we will get a peak.
metsfan4decades
5/11/2011-10:21am at 10:21 am (UTC -4)
I theory sure, everyone is on the list – everyone is expendable.
I’m willing to bet Sandy is listening to any and all offers that come in.
Doesn’t mean he’ll take any and all offers though.
Beltran is as good as gone.
I wish to god Bay was as good as gone.
I’m doubting Wright and Ike are traded.
Reyes is anyone’s guess right now. Same with Pelf and Niese, IMO – although I’m willing to bet we hold onto Niese.
KRod will probably be seriously shopped.
The SP is way too thin now and going into next year.
Trading established players for prospects can be a crap shoot.
I have absolutely no idea what types of moves are coming down the pike to make this team a contending one sooner rather than later. I think we’re going to find out soon enough though.
stickguy
5/11/2011-10:42am at 10:42 am (UTC -4)
neise can’t go. They need more talented, young, cheap pitchers with upside and years of controllable service time.
If anything, they are hoping to trade for a couple more Neises.
metsfan4decades
5/11/2011-10:31am at 10:31 am (UTC -4)
Alderson goes on record saying if they do trade Reyes it’s highly unlikely they enter the FA sweepstakes for him at the end of the year.
‘General manager Sandy Alderson said if the Mets intend to re-sign Reyes, they probably won’t trade him. “I think that’s unlikely,” Alderson said. “I think if you go back and look historically at similar cases, you’ll probably find very few examples of that.”
“I don’t think you really approach [potential trades] in a serious fashion until sometime in early June,” Alderson said. “There are exceptions to that, but as a general rule, you’re talking about an evaluation process the first couple months of the season….I think it’s still less likely that something of any significance would happen early in June. The probabilities will continue to increase through the end of July.”
So says Brian Costa in the Wall Street Journal this morning.
darknova306
5/11/2011-10:52am at 10:52 am (UTC -4)
So we’re looking at having the same trade discussion on here everyday until July. Awesome.
stickguy
5/11/2011-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
you were expecting otherwise?
actually, I don’t think it will become an everyday occurrence until closer to July 1, when all trade talk starts to heat up.
I also suspect that the first deal to go down might sneak completely under the radar. This FO seems to be a play it close to the vest, minimal leaks type of operation.
darknova306
5/11/2011-11:03am at 11:03 am (UTC -4)
No, this is what I expected. Just noting my displeasure.
kingman 26
5/11/2011-10:50am at 10:50 am (UTC -4)
The really cool thing will be once Beltran is traded and Pagan is healthy and Duda’s back, we might really have a shot at an outfield where ALL THREE guys are hitting below .200!!
metsfan4decades
5/11/2011-10:54am at 10:54 am (UTC -4)
On that note, I’m reading Duda is also suffering from back problems. Don’t think he’s on the DL though.
njstuckintx
5/11/2011-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
His back hurts from the weight of Stick’s expectations.
stickguy
5/11/2011-10:58am at 10:58 am (UTC -4)
It’s tough being the savior of a franchise. Lot’s of weight to carry.
so what is this, backs are the new obliques?
metsfan4decades
5/11/2011-11:11am at 11:11 am (UTC -4)
I really have to wonder why today’s players in general seem to have way more injuries when they have access to all kinds of better info concerning health and fitness.
I saw we go back to the 1930s era and look for players on the farm. The big strong kids who worked before and after school as well as played ball. Ate what they grew, not at Mickey Ds and never sat their fanny’s down in front of a TV for hours a day growing up.
TRS86
5/11/2011-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
Actually I have been reading that a lot of it comes from supplements AND over lifting. These guys are all subconscious about their looks and want the most muscular body around while in fact studies are now showing they should allow more recovery time AND focus more on core strength and conditioning.
metsfan4decades
5/11/2011-11:20am at 11:20 am (UTC -4)
If they focused more on core strength and conditioning, probably wouldn’t see as many injuries – pitcher’s arms aside.
The time to develop a healthy body though is while growing up. Which is probably the years most kids are least likely to pay much attention to that sort of thing.
There’s a reason Mama saying ‘eat your vegetables’ was right on the money. Not going to notice it much at 15 but it will come back to haunt you as you move into your 30s.
kingman 26
5/11/2011-11:26am at 11:26 am (UTC -4)
Into the 1960s players often had winter jobs to supplement their income.
Today’s bench players make well into the six figures, if not over a million, and every cent in baseball is guaranteed.
Until the 1970s, players had no freedom to move teams with free agency, and if they sat out most of a year, they wouldn’t have 16 million waiting for them the next year like Beltran and Bay.
They HAD to play unless seriously injured.
Today’s players simply don’t; that surely is a large part of why there are so many injuries that did not exist years ago.
TRS86
5/11/2011-11:30am at 11:30 am (UTC -4)
Obviously players played through more minor injuries, sure. That is not to say that certain injuries have not increased. These guys work harder in the off-season and even during the season than their processors. Just listening to Keith talk about what they did in the off-season/ workouts during the season.
kingman 26
5/11/2011-11:46am at 11:46 am (UTC -4)
Absolutely true.
But players’ incomes, benefits, and lives were vastly different before the mid-1970s and onward.
They did not have the choices players today have: the union support, the massive income, and the ability to choose what injury they can play through.
Jason Bay would have been playing last year by mid-August in the 1950s. Not saying it’s right, but he would not have been able to sit home and collect millions for 2+ months over a concussion.
kingman 26
5/11/2011-10:59am at 10:59 am (UTC -4)
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
kistics
5/11/2011-11:15am at 11:15 am (UTC -4)
Assuming that Bay is on the bench?
metsfan4decades
5/11/2011-11:09am at 11:09 am (UTC -4)
I’m seeing they called the game already today and will play tomorrow at 3:10 instead.
stickguy
5/11/2011-11:11am at 11:11 am (UTC -4)
well, not a bad thing I guess. Wright gets his day off without missing a day (but not a 2 in the row), and Ike has a day to rest up before having to make a decision on him.
kistics
5/11/2011-11:16am at 11:16 am (UTC -4)
I would assume he’ll still get the day off Thursday… but it buys a day for Ike though.
TRS86
5/11/2011-11:11am at 11:11 am (UTC -4)
While I don’t want to trade Reyes or Wright, those saying that you should trade Wright and build around Reyes have got me a little irked. You can’t build around a leadoff hitter. Especially one that shows no true leadership skills and has tanked every September of note. He can be a piece of the solution but he can’t be the primary building block. Obviously you can make an argument that Wright can no longer be a primary building block and that might be true. However, lets ask the question. Why is Jose not the “face” of the franchise? Why is it that there are not tons of articles on the web about making Jose a captain? Why is it that there are not 1,000 great quotes from Reyes on every Met issue from 2006-2011?
I really want Jose to stay along with Wright. Obviously some changes in culture are going to have to be made, hopefully not involving those two. I just think we are asking a lot of Jose to saddle him with a huge contract and make HIM the new face of the franchise.
metsfan4decades
5/11/2011-11:14am at 11:14 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, I have to agree with this.
IMO, neither one are capable of carrying the team. Wright seemed to be so much better in a line-up with the likes of Delgado and Beltran in his prime.
Power HR hitters are apparently harder to come by these days. Maybe we have one in Ike, time will tell. But I’d really like to see them hold onto both Reyes and Wright and Davis and build around them.
kingman 26
5/11/2011-11:27am at 11:27 am (UTC -4)
“Especially one that shows no true leadership skills and has tanked every September of note.”
+ Infinity
TRS86
5/11/2011-11:34am at 11:34 am (UTC -4)
Honestly can you think of one leadoff hitter that was the face of the franchise and the building block? As good as Henderson was I am not sure he was ever the face of the franchise or THE center piece. I know Jose is special but it’s hard to build around a guy that hits at the top of the lineup and obviously he can’t be moved to the 3rd spot.
kingman 26
5/11/2011-11:51am at 11:51 am (UTC -4)
Well, you certainly don’t expect me to argue this!!
Rickey was a truly great player, but the WS teams he was on were loaded with talent in OAK and TOR.
Reyes is nowhere close to what Rickey was. Not by a longshot.
Rickey’s CAREER OBP was .401.
I go back and forth on Reyes every damn day; seriously I do.
As much as I detest his childish behavior, lack of leadership, true unclutchness, softness, and mindlessness, I definitely also understand how rare his combo of speed and extra base ability are.
Still though, he can lead the league in every offensive category for the next five years, and if we do not significantly improve our pitching, we’ll never climb above 3rd or 4th place.
metsfan4decades
5/11/2011-11:58am at 11:58 am (UTC -4)
‘if we do not significantly improve our pitching, we’ll never climb above 3rd or 4th place.’
This I couldn’t agree with more – at least not anytime soon.
The sticking point for me is why we have to trade Reyes to get that improved pitching. Damn Omar…
TRS86
5/11/2011-12:01pm at 12:01 pm (UTC -4)
I agree, the situation sucks. HOPEFULLY, Familia and Harvey will continue to have good seasons, Pelfrey and Niese will turn things around AND they have a good draft. Maybe that will be enough to convince Sandy there is another way.
metsfan4decades
5/11/2011-12:02pm at 12:02 pm (UTC -4)
I’m sincerely hoping.
That and maybe we get back a decent pitching prospect for Beltran as well.
TRS86
5/11/2011-12:00pm at 12:00 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed on your last paragraph. Watching Reyes the last few weeks, while hot, make me realize just how important he is to the offense WHEN he is on. However, a lead-off hitter can’t carry a team and has little control over the rest of the lineup.
I still get irked about how so many clamor for the stats about if Reyes scores the Mets win. How come we don’t see stats about if Wright scores or if Beltran scores? How about some stats showing how other teams do when their leadoff hitter scores?
kingman 26
5/11/2011-12:13pm at 12:13 pm (UTC -4)
“How about some stats showing how other teams do when their leadoff hitter scores?”
I think about this every damn game, and imagine teams ALWAYS do better when their leadoff hitter scores, especially in the first inning.
Wish I had the time to do a Grave-style research piece on it.
kistics
5/11/2011-12:24pm at 12:24 pm (UTC -4)
I remember the Phillies had similar stats on Rollins back in ’09 or ’10. I agree Reyes scores = Mets win is way over blown.
kistics
5/11/2011-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
I would assume Sandy would make everyone expandable. Ike would be the only ‘untradeable’ guy on the list.
But it really depends on who is offered. If you were offered Felix for Ike and Niese, you have to pull the trigger…
TRS86
5/11/2011-11:15am at 11:15 am (UTC -4)
Hmmm, so you are going with the idea of inflating all the players in an attempt to produce more offense?
kistics
5/11/2011-11:22am at 11:22 am (UTC -4)
If they can hit in RISP spot, I would use helium to inflate their asses..
TRS86
5/11/2011-11:25am at 11:25 am (UTC -4)
Perhaps we can turn them all into blow fish and when scared they can all expand and try to scare off the opponent!
TRS86
5/11/2011-11:18am at 11:18 am (UTC -4)
Of course in baseball there really is no such thing as an untouchable. I think what is actually meant by that phrase is that it’s just not likely that they would ever get the return to justify even thinking of trading them. Not just return on the field but in terms of the impact on the entire organization.
Thus guys like Niese, Davis and Wright become untouchable in my opinion.
metsfan4decades
5/11/2011-11:28am at 11:28 am (UTC -4)
Interesting comment from a fan on the WSJ story concerning trading Reyes:
‘I got the sense after reading the WSJ piece that Alderson is hoping that Reyes could bring in two to three high level prospects. We have worked out scenarios ad nauseum, and it just doesn’t add up. At most we could get one A prospect and a few B to C prospects. Of course, some team could get desperate. Outside that scenario he will just be filling one hole while creating another.’
‘I got the sense that Alderson is doing his due diligence to see if he can rob a team blind.’
****************************************
I’m wondering how much ‘sense’ will play into this. If they’ve already decided to trade Reyes regardless, then he’s going to the team who will give up the most – even if it’s not that good of a return.
TRS86
5/11/2011-11:37am at 11:37 am (UTC -4)
It will have to be at least the equivalent of 2 high draft picks.
Think of the center piece of the Cliff Lee deal just last year. Justin Smoak:
.291 .398 .524 .923
so far this season.
Yeah I know teams often get desperate for pitching but they could get just as desperate for Jose Reyes.
Prismo
5/11/2011-11:46am at 11:46 am (UTC -4)
That’s only if it’s a sign & extension.
Jose just for this year is worth SO much less than Jose with an extension. A ridiculous amount less.
If he doesn’t want to sign with a team this year, and wants to test out free agency, the Mets may not get an incredible amount for him in any scenario.
TRS86
5/11/2011-11:53am at 11:53 am (UTC -4)
Lee did not sign an extension.
Prismo
5/11/2011-12:06pm at 12:06 pm (UTC -4)
Oh, you’re right. Haha, not sure what I was thinking. Sorry.
kistics
5/11/2011-11:49am at 11:49 am (UTC -4)
I have been hearing that the Comp pick could go away after this season.
TRS86
5/11/2011-11:57am at 11:57 am (UTC -4)
I just don’t think it will THIS off-season. Could soon though.
kistics
5/11/2011-11:47am at 11:47 am (UTC -4)
I can’t see them trading Reyes for the sake of just trading. I think they can get two A level prospects for Reyes.
I know this is little different since Tex had 1.5 years left on his contract, but look what the Rangers got from the Bravos.
July 31, 2007: Traded by the Texas Rangers with Ron Mahay to the Atlanta Braves for Beau Jones (minors), Elvis Andrus, Neftali Feliz, Matt Harrison and Jarrod Saltalamacchia.
July 29, 2008: Traded by the Atlanta Braves to the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim for Steve Marek (minors) and Casey Kotchman.
Bravos really got hosed in Tex trade…
TRS86
5/11/2011-11:54am at 11:54 am (UTC -4)
Braves were trying to get someone to replace him immediately and failed. Not many failures for the Braves.
Best example to me of getting a steal for a rental right now is indeed the Lee for Smoak+
TRS86
5/11/2011-11:56am at 11:56 am (UTC -4)
Justin Smoak, Blake Beavan, Matthew Lawson and Josh Lueke.
That’s a haul.
kistics
5/11/2011-12:33pm at 12:33 pm (UTC -4)
I guess for a chance to go to WS, you would trade big pieces for a rental.
That makes the Giants, Cards, A’s very likely candidate for him.
kistics
5/11/2011-12:35pm at 12:35 pm (UTC -4)
I’ll be honest here. When Ike got hurt last night, I was pissed at Wright… He just can’t get anything right
kingman 26
5/11/2011-12:46pm at 12:46 pm (UTC -4)
People are really missing the fact that this play is 100% the catcher’s play.
It is the job of the catcher to get out there and shout at who is supposed to catch the ball.
Newcomer to the team? Language barrier? Another Met sleeping during the game?
I have no idea.
But it is the pitcher’s job to get the hell out of the way (one thing Pelf SHOULD be able to handle) and the catcher’s job to take charge and tell the infielders what to do, so that what happened last night does not happen.
kistics
5/11/2011-1:00pm at 1:00 pm (UTC -4)
When Gary asks Keith if it’s the pitcher’s responsibility to call who gets the ball, Keith does point to the catcher.
kistics
5/11/2011-12:53pm at 12:53 pm (UTC -4)
http://atmlb.com/kgZVSh
Watch Ike’s left ankle during the collision. Ouch…
metsfan4decades
5/11/2011-1:03pm at 1:03 pm (UTC -4)
I watched the game too and I don’t see how any blame could be laid at Wright’s feet for that.
The ball was more on the left side of the IF than the right side to begin with. It started drifting right in front of the mound b/c of the winds last night. Wright had a bead on that ball from the minute it was hit. I assume Ike did too but he wasn’t shown on screen until the two were coming together in front of the mound.
I’m not sure what the rule of thumb is there – some say it was the catcher’s job to make the call, some say pitcher, heck a few even said it’s the SS’s responsibility (although Reyes was playing way too deep to factor into him guiding whoever to catch it).
I can only assume neither Wright nor Ike heard each other nor saw each other that close. Just a freak accident. I do know that Pelfrey just stood there watching that whole thing unfold. I’m not sure about Paulino.
metsfan4decades
5/11/2011-1:06pm at 1:06 pm (UTC -4)
O.K., I just watched the replay. It appears Paulino just stood there watching that play as well.
I’ll bet that’s one thing Collins goes over to make sure that never happens again.
kingman 26
5/11/2011-1:31pm at 1:31 pm (UTC -4)
Well, sorry to beat my badly worn and overused drum here, but it’s par for the course, and is classic current and recent Mets.
Pitcher and catcher stand around while infielders run into each other.
Exhibit 987,304 of why this village must be destroyed before we can save it.
Everything and everyone must go.
Chip Hale? Infield coach?
kistics
5/11/2011-1:46pm at 1:46 pm (UTC -4)
But to be fair, there are plenty other teams/players that lack fundamentals and/or brain farts like this.
Here’s something I have problem with (and this is not directed to you Kingman.. kinda
)… Reyes gets criticized a lot because of his handshakes, and the high fives. What I want to say is that these behaviors are now very common in every other team. Not only the Mets, but every other team does this. The proud Yankees do this all the time. ARod points to the dugout every time he hits a HR. All the HR hitters like Pujols, Howard, Fielder stand on the batter’s box for 2 minutes admiring their HRs before slowly jogging around the bases. And I don’t see anyone criticizing them for what they do.
I’m not saying what Reyes does is right or wrong, but if we’re going to criticize this guy for what he does, we should do it to all the other players as well.
TRS86
5/11/2011-1:51pm at 1:51 pm (UTC -4)
Hey I criticize those other guys as much as possible!!!
I think the point with Reyes is that people want to see a guy focused on not losing focus and doing whatever it takes to move the team to the next level. Fair? Most likely not but when has NY ever been accused of being fair?
kistics
5/11/2011-2:04pm at 2:04 pm (UTC -4)
I agree. Does Reyes lose focus and makes bone headed mistakes? Sure. But I think they are way too over blown (anything in NY media is over blown) for what its worth.
TRS86
5/11/2011-2:08pm at 2:08 pm (UTC -4)
Hmmm, do I think they are overblown? I am not sure about that. Of course the NY media takes things and runs but we are talking about a guy that it has been said we can’t win without, we should keep and build around him instead of Wright making him the next face of the franchise AND pay 100M+.
kingman 26
5/11/2011-2:21pm at 2:21 pm (UTC -4)
Sorry, unfocused players on last place teams should be focusing on staying on the bases, not dancing.
Reyes is style over substance, hair over fundamentals, nonsense over leadership and always has been.
Ryan Howard had more clutch hits by the time he was 5 years old than Reyes will ever have.
ARod? First ballot HOFer and all-time great.
Pujols? Nothing to even say here; ring-wearer and best player of his generation.
Sorry. Jose’s a laughingstock for a reason. As is the whole team.
metsfan4decades
5/11/2011-3:11pm at 3:11 pm (UTC -4)
Eh….it’s just all over blown, IMO.
It boils down to if you’re a fan of Reyes or not. That determines what side of the fence you sit on, on this issue.
For example: I’ve got no problem with most of what Reyes does out there – that some call ‘showboating’. As long as he’s not showing up the opposing team, it’s fine with me.
However, go cross town and watching in years past Joba roaring and fist pumping every time he threw a strike just made me think ‘what a jerk’.
I’m sure my opinion has something to do with the fact that Reyes is currently a Met and Joba is a Yankee.
Dirtysanchez
5/11/2011-4:17pm at 4:17 pm (UTC -4)
My thing is that line of “not showing up a team” has been so moved in that a player coughing could be construed as “showing up the other team”.
Ive never had a problem with reyes or any player for that matter who celebrates an accomplishment. There is an entertainment factor to baseball that has gotten lost over the years imo. I dont think any player will go all Kenny Powers but getting all worked up over high fiving fans after hitting the game tying home run going while going back out to RF(Milledge reference)…give me a break.
Im totally with you on this kis and thats why I hate that hypocritical Victorino so much…talking smack about reyes’ handshakes when he got people on his own team that show boat. How about Alfonso Soriano’s John Cena impression when he hits a HR? Josh Hamilton swinging his hand over his head when he gets a hit?
Players are way to sensitive these days…buck up.
kistics
5/11/2011-4:50pm at 4:50 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed. I don’t understand how it’s perfectly fine to do a crazy touchdown dance or stare someone down after a nasty dunk, but it’s not okay to high-five above the dugout.
How is it okay to mock someone for their post game celebrations, but not okay to actually do the post game celebrations. Or that nobody criticizes Brian Wilson’s weird signs, but if KRod does his thing, he gets killed for it.
kingman 26
5/11/2011-5:02pm at 5:02 pm (UTC -4)
I actually generally ONLY have a problem with Reyes in this regard.
As many fans and many players agree, Jose is in a class by himself in this regard.
metsfan4decades
5/11/2011-7:52pm at 7:52 pm (UTC -4)
Um…I’m willing to bet those ‘many fans and players who agree’ are not NY Mets and mainly not NY Met fans.
kingman 26
5/11/2011-5:10pm at 5:10 pm (UTC -4)
I just see it differently.
Jose doesn’t “show up the other team”—they all think he is a childish ass.
They are not intimidated by Jose, they think he is an ant needing to be squashed.
I just will never agree that frigin dances for last-place teams hitting 3rd inning HRs are appropriate.
I hate Chad Ocho Cinco for the same reason, and he too is a laughingstock.
Showboating should be for winning players and winning teams, not players like Jose, who is right now as far from a winning player as exists. The 1986 Mets could do no wrong, because their play backed it up. The 2002-2003 Nets were unreal fast-breaking showboats–but they won 2 straight conference titles.
And I still go back—among so many instances–to the last game with the Marlins in 2007—I think it was Olivo who charged towards Reyes and Jose literally cowered behind Alomar Sr and let the 65 year old man take the punch.
Jose is a GREAt talent, as I never dispute, but he is a preening little softy.
And I guarantee you—were you to take a survey of MLB players, how many would disagree with my analysis here? My guess would be very few.
That being said, I hope he re-signs for 6 years with the Mets and is able to dance around CBPark when we clinch a division in 3 years.
That would be as sweet as he and Wright’s on-field celebrations in 2006 were.
But when he dances when we haven’t been above 4th place in 3 years? Revolting, inappropriate, and weak.
metsfan4decades
5/11/2011-7:54pm at 7:54 pm (UTC -4)
Marlins/Phils game tonight.
Hanley Ramirez just hit a solo bomb off Cliff Lee.
Apparently the Phils booth took exception of him ‘show boating’ on that HR.
I don’t know if he did or did not as I didn’t actually see it but I’m just pointing out…it’s not 1950 anymore. Many players are just more animated than their counterparts of years gone by.
TRS86
5/11/2011-1:26pm at 1:26 pm (UTC -4)
More to come on this. Not doing enough to make it into a post yet.
Record
Reyes Scores: 11-8
Reyes Scores in 1st: 6-2
Wright Scores: 9-7
Wright Scores in 1st: 3-0 (of course if the # 3 hitter scores in the 1st you are doing well….)
So I started looking at other teams.
First the Brewers with Weeks
Weeks Scores: 10-9
Weeks Scores in 1st: 3-3
More to come.
kingman 26
5/11/2011-1:29pm at 1:29 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks for this; this would be HUGELY valuable to know the facts on.
TRS86
5/11/2011-1:41pm at 1:41 pm (UTC -4)
I wish I had time, or a system, to do more of these.
TRS86
5/11/2011-1:40pm at 1:40 pm (UTC -4)
Astros’ Bourn
Overall Record 13-23
When Bourn Scores 9-12
When Bourn Scores in 1st 4-1
I am only looking at teams with a normal lead-off hitters that have similar records to the Mets.
saltygary
5/11/2011-1:52pm at 1:52 pm (UTC -4)
Ike Davis’s foot has fallen off his body and he will be out for the season. You heard it here first.
kistics
5/11/2011-1:56pm at 1:56 pm (UTC -4)
that’s not nice…
saltygary
5/11/2011-2:45pm at 2:45 pm (UTC -4)
What’s not nice is how that trade worked out for you in our fantasy league. I thought Jeet’s was going to play the fu card and have one last good year. Also carpenter finally getting his first win is a little shocking.
kistics
5/11/2011-2:53pm at 2:53 pm (UTC -4)
yeah that’s why I traded for Jeter… and thought that Scherzer is still wild..
I just gotta hope these old farts would pick things up with warm weather….
stickguy
5/11/2011-3:30pm at 3:30 pm (UTC -4)
not true. ask MF, in the dugout last night I predicted an amputation. and a 20% chance Ike did not make it through the night.
metsfan4decades
5/11/2011-7:43pm at 7:43 pm (UTC -4)
LOL….and I’m sure you weren’t the only thinking ‘that’s it, he lost for the season now’.
kistics
5/11/2011-1:52pm at 1:52 pm (UTC -4)
Ike flying to NY to be checked out by the team Docs…
Kevin Burkhardt
@KBurkhardtSNY Kevin Burkhardt
Ike Davis flying to NY to be looked at by team Drs….
1 hour ago via ÜberSocial Favorite Retweet Reply
TRS86
5/11/2011-2:10pm at 2:10 pm (UTC -4)
Could be anything from bumps and bruises to strained calf to torn Achilles .
saltygary
5/11/2011-2:52pm at 2:52 pm (UTC -4)
All bummed because I just found out that I have to go to Greensboro GA the week of 06/13. Of course the first thing I do is check to see if the Mets are in town and they are, so now I am pumped.
kistics
5/11/2011-2:57pm at 2:57 pm (UTC -4)
You should buy a seat right behind the home plate and be like that guy who was sitting right behind the home plate the past 2 games.
kistics
5/11/2011-3:07pm at 3:07 pm (UTC -4)
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2011/05/11/2011-05-11_frenchys_checks__balances.html
“I wrote him a $35,000 check and he gave me cash for it and I bought a car for my mom and dad. And that’s what it was all about. That’s the whole thing,” Francoeur said. “My parents help pay our bills and stuff while we’re away during the season. I didn’t want them to see what I paid for the car.
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2011/05/11/2011-05-11_frenchys_checks__balances.html#ixzz1M4YADj4C
Frenchy wrote another check for $15k for the Mets staff tips…
kistics
5/11/2011-3:08pm at 3:08 pm (UTC -4)
$35k in cash to buy a car?? Little weird….
saltygary
5/11/2011-3:20pm at 3:20 pm (UTC -4)
That’s what I thought but I’ve been too busy to really think about why that makes sense. Speaking of 35g for a car, there is a lotus south of me going for that much with only 7000 miles on it. 40 mpg but wife still said no.
Shit just went to get the link and it’s sold. This is the same one just 2 years newer with no mileage:
http://www.carsdirect.com/used_cars/vehicle-detail/ul292029931/lotus/elise?source=UsedCarListings
stickguy
5/11/2011-3:35pm at 3:35 pm (UTC -4)
where did this comment pop up from?
stickguy
5/11/2011-3:34pm at 3:34 pm (UTC -4)
about Reyes, I don’t really see keeping him as building a team around him, as in expecting him to be the centerpiece, main run producer, star of the team (face of the franchise?). It would just be paying a lot of money for a very talented player that makes the team better.
same with leadership. Still overblown IMO for baseball. Not like he has to lead them into battle. Can’t the manager set the overall tone of leading the team, and let the natural leaders rise to the surface? And quite often, these guys are far from the best or highest paid players.
metsfan4decades
5/11/2011-4:00pm at 4:00 pm (UTC -4)
Per Heyman:
Heyman hears that it’s “highly unlikely” that the Red Sox would be willing to meet the Mets’ asking price for Jose Reyes this summer.
I have to assume the asking price set by Sandy is high. Might as well, you never know what some team would give up.
If trading Reyes is what he has in mind, wonder if he pulls the trigger on the best deal he can get, regardless.
metsfan4decades
5/11/2011-4:02pm at 4:02 pm (UTC -4)
Strange….this later comment by me was posted higher than later comments below.
Prismo
5/11/2011-8:20pm at 8:20 pm (UTC -4)
Which is funny, because they don’t even have a great prospect system right now after making some significant trades the last couple seasons.
Even their top prospect isn’t as highly rated as Smoak was last season before his trade.
Prismo
5/11/2011-8:28pm at 8:28 pm (UTC -4)
Baseball America did their top 100 prospects in February, here are the Red Sox players:
52. Jose Iglesias (ss),
Best Tool: Defense.
BA Grade: 70.
Opening Day Age: 21
ETA: 2012
67 Anthony Ranaudo (rhp)
Best Tool: Fastball.
BA Grade: 70.
Opening Day Age: 21
ETA: 2013
97 Drake Britton (lhp)
Best Tool: Fastball.
BA Grade: 65.
Opening Day Age: 21
ETA: 2013
Prismo
5/11/2011-8:31pm at 8:31 pm (UTC -4)
In 2010, here are the prospects the Mariners got for Lee:
13 JUSTIN SMOAK (1B)
Best Tool: Bat.
BA Grade: 70.
Opening Day Age: 23
ETA: Mid-2010
And none of the other prospects in the deal were in the top 100 prospects.
metsfan4decades
5/11/2011-8:48pm at 8:48 pm (UTC -4)
Interesting because all I usually hear is how great the Red Sox farm system is.
Prismo
5/12/2011-12:05am at 12:05 am (UTC -4)
I think it was (and it may be at lower levels)…but then they traded for Victor Martinez and Adrian Gonzalez! Almost no team would have top prospects after those trades.
kistics
5/12/2011-9:18am at 9:18 am (UTC -4)
yet they still have more prospects in the top 100 list than the mets. thank you Omar and your scout background!!
metsfan4decades
5/11/2011-7:45pm at 7:45 pm (UTC -4)
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ys-forbes_most_underpaid_baseball_players_051111
According to yahoo sports, Wright is the most underpaid 3rd baseman in the league.
metsfan4decades
5/11/2011-8:12pm at 8:12 pm (UTC -4)
This:
http://www.amazinavenue.com/2011/5/10/2163273/whos-your-least-favorite-philly#comments
was just too funny. The comments on this post are even funnier.
So far it’s Victorino by a landslide.
I forgot all about him being ejected in CF yammering about balls and strikes being called by the home plate ump.
metsfan4decades
5/11/2011-9:54pm at 9:54 pm (UTC -4)
I cannot believe I was bored enough tonight to get into a debate with the infamous Bayonne on MMO who had the nerve to imply that ‘chicks who dig cute WHITE guys with dimples’ will just have to get over trading Wright in favor or resigning Reyes.
Obviously to him, baseball is a MAN’s sport only and the only females who might tune in are considered groupies.
Surely, I thought – he must be joking. Comically – or maybe more to the point sadly – he was not.
darknova306
5/11/2011-10:08pm at 10:08 pm (UTC -4)
Wow, you must’ve been pretty bored. I equate the comment sections of most sports blogs with the comment sections on yahoo news articles: full of useless idiots talking hate and nonsense.
metsfan4decades
5/12/2011-7:55am at 7:55 am (UTC -4)
I occasionally read comments on mets.com stories but even those posters are not this out of touch.
Prismo
5/12/2011-12:10am at 12:10 am (UTC -4)
I got your back 4D.
metsfan4decades
5/12/2011-7:58am at 7:58 am (UTC -4)
LOL. Thanks, Prismo.
I honestly could not believe someone in this day and age can possibly have a mindset so socially antiquated. Then again, I shouldn’t have been so surprised. He’s forever railing at knowledgeable baseball fans over there, calling them out for using advanced stats to make a point, saying they’re a waste of time. He KNOWS better because he has eyes and that’s all you need to evaluate a player.
Like I said, I should have known better but it was a slow baseball night….
TRS86
5/12/2011-8:34am at 8:34 am (UTC -4)
I am still laughing at the argument in general that we should trade Wright and make Reyes the new face of the franchise.
metsfan4decades
5/12/2011-9:24am at 9:24 am (UTC -4)
Well, y’all know where I stand on this. I want to keep both.
kingman 26
5/12/2011-8:57am at 8:57 am (UTC -4)
LOL!!
I got news for him, I bet a LOT of chicks dig Jose’s really pretty hair as it sways in the breeze as he runs the bases!
It is funny, the ONLY other place I comment on occasion, the Star Ledger, has a guy like that—he knows NOTHING and is always whining at people who use stats and rational arguments; he mocks anyone who tries to cite Wright’s great Sept #s in 2007 and 2008 as a “sabermetrician” who doesn’t know the game.
David Wright has a “consistent resume of choking.”
I know he comes here and reads, as I sometimes post links to pieces here, and people there comment on them over there, but he would NEVER comment here–nor would someone like Bayonne–as he knows he would get roundly reamed.