With Carlos Beltran’s historic day now in forefront many including myself are hoping the Mets can take advantage of what a healthy Carlos Beltran can bring. Not just in terms of the multitude of trade Beltran proposals but also in the standings.
However, this morning I am choosing to take a path of reflection. Beltran during his tenure with the Mets has been one of the most polarizing figures to don a uniform. After signing a large 7 year 119 Million dollar deal Beltran did not endear himself to the fans quickly. Like many before and a significant number afterward Beltran struggled in his first year in Queens. A 2005 slash line of .266/.330/.414/.744 with an OPS+ of under 100 Beltran was often booed for his lack of production. Seeing Beltran as already a guy who just cashed in on a hot playoff performance in 2004 many fans by the time 2006 rolled around had already written him off like this year’s Jason Bay. (No I am not making ability comparisons here).
However in 2006 Beltran silenced many of his critics posting what could be regarded as the best offensive season in Mets history. With 41 HR (tied for Mets record), 127 Runs (Mets record), 116 RBI, 18/21 in steals, 150 OPS+ a definite case can be made. Beltran was ready to take the stage as the dominant player that all Mets fans could love until…. the post season. What many forget is that after struggling in the divisional series vs the Dodgers, Beltran responded with 3 HR vs the Cardinals with an OPS of 1.054. Ultimately with the series on the line and Adam Wainwright on the mound there was no other Mets hitter that I would have wanted up.
We know what happen from there but perhaps here is where the Mets fans cursed themselves. Instead of celebrating a great 2006 season, many Mets fans sought someone to blame. Enter the 120 million dollar man. Labeled now as a choke artist, the same guy who has a career 1.302 OPS in the playoffs, Beltran was booed by many on opening day for falling victim to what may have been one of the nastiest curveballs of our generation. Perhaps many Mets fans got what they deserved in 2007 and 2008.
Over the course of the next 2 seasons Beltran continued to prove his worth even though the Mets as a whole could not get the job done. With an average OPS+ of 127 while playing a flawless CF Beltran produced even during the two “collapses” hitting 8 HR in September of 2007 amassing 23 RBI during that time. During 2008 Beltran bettered those stats with an astounding 1.086 OPS+ during September that featured a .440 OBP and SLG of .646. Yet Beltran could not seem to shake the moniker of soft or a choke artist.
Enter 2009, here is where the Beltran haters get more fuel. While contributing at a rate that would have been one of his finest seasons with a .336, .425, .527, .952 line through June 21st Beltran could take the pain of his damaged knees no longer and was placed on the DL. Wanting to be back with the team as quickly as possible Beltran rushed himself back for September in a season already lost. While his OBP stayed high, you could tell his defense and power struggled. Rumors of surgery being needed surrounded the Mets circles.
However, it appeared that Beltran could be ready for 2010 only for the Mets and their fans to be surprised with Beltran choosing to have surgery early in 2010. Carlos would miss 88 games to come back on July 15th. Many viewed Carlos’ comeback as rushed as he did not spend significant game time in the minors before his return. Beltran struggled in July and August producing his worst numbers of his tenure. Dejecters viewed this as the end for Beltran proclaiming him washed up. In September he was able to rebound to a .967 OPS. Of course Beltran continued to be a question mark most of the past off-season and his availability for the start of 2011 was in question.
Terry Collins proclaimed that Beltran would get plenty of days off and would most assuredly not play in day games after night games. Thus Carlos sat out games 3, 6, 9, 12. Since game 13 Beltran has started every game including both ends of a double header. During this span Beltran has had a .996 OPS with 6 HR, 8 2B and a SLG% 2 points from .600. In a year that the Mets have struggled with RISP Beltran has a .963 OPS in that situation.
So where does Beltran rank all-time with the Mets? Take a look:
Season rankings all-time:
3rd WAR (8.0 trailing 1st place by .1)
4th Offensive WAR
5th OPS
One of only 5 Mets to play 161 or more games in a season.
1st in runs scored
Tied for 1st in HR
6th in RBI
Career:
3rd WAR
5th Offensive WAR
3rd Defensive WAR
6th OBP
5th SLG
5th OPS
10th Runs Scored
10th Total bases
7th 2B
6th HR
8th RBI
7th Extra Base Hits
You can see these stats and others I omitted because I don’t know what the hell they are at Baseball-Reference.
Soon, and we think it’s bad now, Beltran trade rumors will heat up. Of course there is little reasoning for the Mets to keep Beltran unless they are truly in contention. However, for now lets enjoy watching one of the greatest Mets of all-time spend his last days as a Met with pride in his accomplishments. For when he is gone he will be surely missed.
97 comments
metsfan4decades
5/13/2011-10:44am at 10:44 am (UTC -4)
If you don’t know what those omitted stats are all about, I sure as hell won’t.
Nice analysis, real.
Not sure what the problem was in 2005. Acclimating to NY and Shea is just as likely a reason as others. I remember being very disappointing but not to the point of ever booing. He was young, there was no reason to believe he suddenly lost it all.
Come 2006 we all knew he didn’t lose it. Watching Beltran at bat was almost as good as watching man CF and glide around the bases. He’s truly a 5 tool player. One his dectractors aren’t going to realize until he’s gone, if ever.
I’ve watched Met baseball now for over 40 years. We’ve had plenty of CFs. Somehow though, I can’t wrap my brain around Beltran no longer being out there (even though he’s now in RF). Seems like he’s been in a Met OF forever.
I know there is no good reason to remotely think about Beltran staying, other than sentimentality. His time here is shortly coming to an end. I’m with you in settling in to enjoy whatever time is left watching Beltran in a Met uniform. I just have to keep reminding myself that all good things come to an end.
stickguy
5/13/2011-12:21pm at 12:21 pm (UTC -4)
can’t remember exactly what it was, but he supposedly had some sort of injury (muscle pull maybe?) that he played through all year. That probably had more to do with it than the NY factor
kingman 26
5/13/2011-10:55am at 10:55 am (UTC -4)
Beltran’s one of the all-time great Mets, this cannot be debated.
He IS clutch, he can hit, hit for power, run, field, and throw. From 2006–2008 he was one of the best players in baseball.
Babe Ruth probably would have not hit that Wainwright curve.
But let’s not let the afterglow of a 3-HR game cloud the big picture here.
The timing of his 2010 surgery made him basically sacrifice an entire year, for which he was paid a hell of a lot of money. Partially the fault of inept team management? Maybe. Partially Carlos sacrificing the year as he knew he would be back and healthy for 2011? Maybe.
And while he may indeed be tough, he also often goes out of his way to avoid contact on the bases, as is clearly evident and simply not debatable.
Insisting on the clause in his contract which prevents the Mets from receiving a pick like the ones they received in the past which became David Wright (Hampton) and Ike Davis (Glavine)? Incredibly selfish and greedy on top of his already mammoth contract. A classic example of a player’s greed being really overreaching.
While calling him a “choker” is inane and meaningless, calling him soft is sometimes unfair and sometimes right on the money.
Like most things in the Minaya era, Beltran’s a mixed bag.
7 years—of the 6 completed we received three MVP years from 2006–2008, half of a real good year in 2009, a total Foster/Bay bust in 2005, and nothing in 2010.
Would we do this deal again if we had it to do over again?
Now that’s a great question.
So, while Carlos is indeed a great Met, some of what the detractors say is indeed accurate; like most issues, reality lies somewhere between the extremes.
kingman 26
5/13/2011-10:59am at 10:59 am (UTC -4)
Also I must say that by ALL accounts Carlos is a fine human being, a generous, charitable, family man, and a great example for kids and young players.
This also seems beyond debate.
TRS86
5/13/2011-11:04am at 11:04 am (UTC -4)
We have already debated our disagreements with his surgery, timing and reasoning so I will no slow down the page with that again. Nor will I debate the unmeasurable “soft” label as it can not be proven one way or another.
What I will choose is the decision to deny arbitration. That my friend is due to Scott Boras and his foresight more than any greed from Beltran. Boras saw the issue with the current broken system long before anyone else. Many players have indeed been hurt by the Type A label in terms of their next contract. If Beltran were indeed a Type A at the end of the year and could be offered arbitration, and assuming the Mets were foolish enough to do it, it for sure would lessen his value on the open market. Not only would the newly acquiring team be taking a risk on Beltran’s health but also giving up a draft pick.
Today we see many contracts with this stipulation attached. This is one of the primary reasons that you may see an end to draft pick compensation as we know it.
TRS86
5/13/2011-11:07am at 11:07 am (UTC -4)
Also you make it sound like he missed 2 years. In fact he missed what amounts to be 1 season playing 145 games in 2009 and 2010. Honestly when signing a 7 year deal, wouldn’t most GM’s take that percentage?
TRS86
5/13/2011-11:09am at 11:09 am (UTC -4)
.280 .367 .502 .869 127 slash line in his career as a Met.
kingman 26
5/13/2011-11:12am at 11:12 am (UTC -4)
Well, we can go back and forth forever on this; production-wise, 2010 was basically lost.
He missed 18 games in 2007—if he misses 5, maybe we make the playoffs?
And as I said, I can see both sides.
Great player? Absolutely.
Player who chooses to walk into home instead of sliding and almost never slides hard into second to break up a DP? Also absolutely.
As you often say, both sides of many arguments have merit; this is a classic case of the rectitude of that idea.
TRS86
5/13/2011-11:37am at 11:37 am (UTC -4)
Not really getting into the softness debate as I said. My point is that he only missed 1 year in terms of games in 6 years.
kingman 26
5/13/2011-11:39am at 11:39 am (UTC -4)
Well, no one plays 162 games every year, but he has missed 230 in six years.
TRS86
5/13/2011-11:44am at 11:44 am (UTC -4)
81 of those coming in 1 season. I am also willing to venture that not many CF played as many games as Beltran did from 2005-2008.
TRS86
5/13/2011-11:40am at 11:40 am (UTC -4)
As for the other years where he missed a few games here and there you have to put it in perspective of position played.
kingman 26
5/13/2011-11:44am at 11:44 am (UTC -4)
Well, yes, but he missed 22 in ’06 and 18 in ’07.
That’s more than a few here and there TRS, and it does give some weight to the argument that he would sit out with a slight injury issue that David Wright and many others would play with.
TRS86
5/13/2011-11:56am at 11:56 am (UTC -4)
Over the last 4 years here is the top 5 in games played in CF.
Ichiro 631/648
Rios 612/648
Young 598/648
Granderson 595
Pierre 586
From 2005-2008 Beltran played in 596 placing him 5th in games played.
metsfan4decades
5/13/2011-11:10am at 11:10 am (UTC -4)
You can’t fault Beltran for that clause in his contract. Boras threw it out there, Omar allowed it. If anything, that’s on Omar, IMO.
I’m on the side of the fence of not blaming Beltran at all for that decision in Jan for knee surgery. Not after the way the Mets jerked him around the year before with that injury. Did you see the Phillies shooting Utley with cortisone and sticking him on the field for opening day? Nope. They sat him down and started rehabbing it, with surgery a possibility. And that’s the way the Mets should have handled it from day one summer of ’09. Oh, but Omar clearly quoting ‘well, we trust our doctors but sometimes we have to weigh their advice against putting our best players on the DL’. Can you say stupid, Omar?
I’m blaming Omar and the Mets for the fact that Beltran was out all of last year. He took his long term health in his own hands and did what he felt was necessary to prolong his career. They certainly didn’t have his best interest in THEIR minds.
TRS86
5/13/2011-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
Yeah after that debacle in 2009, who can blame Beltran in 2010 in January? Who’s to say that Beltran did not start his normal workouts in January only to find more pain, went to the Mets and concerned over ticket sales said just try and play through it.
metsfan4decades
5/13/2011-11:53am at 11:53 am (UTC -4)
Actually, he did start his normal routine in Oct. and didn’t feel any pain until mid Dec. I’m assuming he tried to rest it, got opinions for a month and after all was said and done, was probably told this is as good as it’s going to get. Or we can try surgery, clean out the bone chips, arthritis some, and see if this reduces the pain. So he went for it end of Jan.
Ceetar
5/13/2011-11:48am at 11:48 am (UTC -4)
Actually I believe they did shoot up Utley and try to get him to play. He just couldn’t. There were stories about him fielding balls at second from a rocking chair.
metsfan4decades
5/13/2011-11:54am at 11:54 am (UTC -4)
LOL…I read those stories about playing from a rocking chair.
And you are right, they initially did try shots. When they didn’t work, they investigated further. That’s when the diagnosis of the bone bruise, along with whatever else they’re calling it, was made.
kingman 26
5/13/2011-11:15am at 11:15 am (UTC -4)
Sure I can fault Beltran for that clause—Boras works for him—folks often forget that’s the case or choose to ignore it.
There are many reasons Boras is hated, reviled, and has been fired by a bunch of guys.
Putting his own greed and selfishness above the teams and the game is at the top of that list of reasons.
Seriously—a 7-year, 126 million deal? On top of that insisting on that clause?
Greed, plain and simple.
And of course Omar’s shortsighted stupidity is also to blame.
It took two to dance this completely outrageous tango—one very greedy player/agent duo, and one dunce GM.
TRS86
5/13/2011-11:34am at 11:34 am (UTC -4)
Kingman, how is that greed? Isn’t that just protecting his future value? Certainly no worse than the standard no-trade clause.
kingman 26
5/13/2011-11:42am at 11:42 am (UTC -4)
At age 27, signing a 7-year, 126 million deal, and he REALLY needed that clause to protect his future value?
Please.
He needed it so he can retire with 160 million instead of 150 million or something like that. Insane greed.
How much more will he really make due to this clause? And after what he already has made and will make?
TRS86
5/13/2011-11:47am at 11:47 am (UTC -4)
Again, how is that greed? It was designed to protect the player against a broken system. How is it any more greedy than a no trade clause?
kingman 26
5/13/2011-11:51am at 11:51 am (UTC -4)
On top of a 7-year deal for 126 million that no other team came close to?
Incredible greed.
How much is frigin’ enough?
TRS86
5/13/2011-11:57am at 11:57 am (UTC -4)
How is it more greedy than a no trade clause? Again this will be standard for most new contracts until they change the rules. Boras was just smart enough to see the future issues it would cause.
Ceetar
5/13/2011-11:32am at 11:32 am (UTC -4)
He’ll be missed. Greatly. on the field and in the clubhouse.
He’s one of the best Mets ever, and if they’d won it all in ’06 (or win it all before he’s gone) there would be calls for 15 up on the wall.
tkfj2
5/13/2011-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
If we are going to call Beltran greedy, then 90% of baseball players are greedy, better yet 90-95% of all athletes could probably be classified as greedy.
You mean to tell me that when he gets offered a lucrative contract, he is going to call up Omar and say; “You know I really don’t deserve that much money”. Omar went there, it is what it is.
Also “softness” is subjective. Just as you can point out instances where Beltran was “soft”, I could point out that the man did not hit the DL after he fractured his face in a collision with Cameron. The guy broke his face and did not hesitate to hit the field again.
I’m not going to go into an argument about the subjective facets of baseball, I rather stick with the tangible and the tangible tells me Carlos was and is a great Met.
TRS86
5/13/2011-11:34am at 11:34 am (UTC -4)
Agreed.
kingman 26
5/13/2011-11:37am at 11:37 am (UTC -4)
“You mean to tell me that when he gets offered a lucrative contract, he is going to call up Omar and say; “You know I really don’t deserve that much money”. Omar went there, it is what it is.”
Hmmm, who said that?
On top of getting a 7-year, 126 million deal, which no other team offered anything close to, insisting on a clause which would prevent the team offering you this incredibly generous deal from receiving compensation when you leave?
Outrageously selfish and greedy.
And yes, many pro athletes are pretty greedy, and it is a shame.
Ones who choose to be represented by Scott Boras have a certain attitude, which is perfectly exemplified by this outrageous clause, which yes, Omar was nuts to give.
But Boras and Beltran knew how desperate the Mets were based on the deal they offered, so they said, what the hell, let’s get a little more.
kistics
5/13/2011-11:58am at 11:58 am (UTC -4)
If I were in his position and the Mets were willing to accept the clause, I would certainly put that clause in any day. And so would 99% of professional athletes.
You mean to tell me that negotiating for a favorable contract is a bad thing and being greedy?
If the contract is a ‘team friendly’ contract, does this mean that the team is greedy here?
kingman 26
5/13/2011-12:12pm at 12:12 pm (UTC -4)
Ugh. Changing what I say is stupid.
The contract giving 7 years and 126 million was ALREADY more than he would receive elsewhere. I have NEVER suggested ANYONE should offer to take LESS money.
Demanding the clause ON TOP of this was, in my opinion, VERY greedy.
metsfan4decades
5/13/2011-11:57am at 11:57 am (UTC -4)
Sorry, this is no different than putting your house up for top dollar and hope you get someone who will bite.
You always start high. If no one takes you up on the offer, you start coming down.
It’s business, nothing more or less.
No different than KRod being entitled to that 17.5 vest this year if he satisfies it. Omar signed that contract. KRod wasn’t going to look a gift horse in the mouth.
TRS86
5/13/2011-12:03pm at 12:03 pm (UTC -4)
Serious question but when did draft pick compensation start?
kingman 26
5/13/2011-12:11pm at 12:11 pm (UTC -4)
OK, here is an example of what I think:
I lived in Seattle in the 1990s. By the end of the decade, it was clear that Griffey, ARod, and Randy Johnson all would be traded as then-ownership would not re-sign them.
All three players were worshiped in the area. They also were pampered and treated great by the team; Griffey’s father and brother were signed by the team. ARod’s family was pampered. Johnson was nurtured along until he became a superstar.
Griffey and Johnson allowed the Mariners to trade them and receive decent returns. The Mariners got a bunch of players for Griffey and Johnson, including Mike Cameron, Freddie Garcia, and Carlos Guillen.
Alex Rodriguez publicly stated that he would never re-sign with any team the Mariners traded him to, forcing them to allow him to leave as a free agent.
Now, let’s say the team that nurtured his career and treated his obnoxious family so well was allowed to trade him and get some players in return? Then ARod would have had the horrible discomfort of living for 2-3 months in a fancy hotel, then signing his same FA deal with Texas, but the Mariners would have gotten some players in return, and the fans would have a better team.
Was it ARod’s right to do this? Absolutely and positively. Was it incredibly greedy and selfish? Absolutely and positively.
Griffey and Johnson showed class and appreciation not just for what the team had given them, but for what the FANS had given them.
ARod was so roundly booed in his first return to Seattle that he was clearly shaken.
So, to me, when Beltran leaves, his way of thanking the team which paid him 126 million—and his way of thanking the fans whose money makes his wealth possible—will be the legacy of the clause which will prevent the Mets from having a pick which could become another David Wright or Ike Davis.
Sure it is his right. But defiantly defending this greed on top of his 126 million is mystifying to me.
Prismo
5/13/2011-12:18pm at 12:18 pm (UTC -4)
I can’t believe you’re blaming a player for a clause in his contract!
This is ALL Boras and Omar. Taking out the ability for the team to offer a player arbitration will increase the size of the player’s next contract. Simple as that. Blame Boras. Blame Omar. Don’t blame Beltran.
kingman 26
5/13/2011-12:22pm at 12:22 pm (UTC -4)
Boras works for Beltran.
The clause is totally legal.
In my opinion, it is really greedy to demand on top of a 7-year 126 million dollar deal, and it does say a big FU to the fans whose money supports the salary.
Prismo
5/13/2011-12:24pm at 12:24 pm (UTC -4)
That’s completely insane.
Heck, let’s assume it was all Beltran’s idea. Boras even thought it was too ridiculous, but Beltran insisted it was in the contract.
Assuming that…Omar still agreed to the contract.
Who do you blame for Werth signing that asinine deal with the Nats? Does anyone blame Werth for asking so much money? NO WAY!!! Everyone rightfully blames the Nationals because they agreed to it!
I can’t even fathom we’re having this discussion; it’s beyond reason.
Omar, working for the Mets, agreed to the deal. He tied his own noose with this one. Enough said.
Prismo
5/13/2011-12:27pm at 12:27 pm (UTC -4)
Also, I noticed that when we “get into it” no one else ever joins in the fray. I think they’re afraid of us.
kingman 26
5/13/2011-12:32pm at 12:32 pm (UTC -4)
As they should be!!
kingman 26
5/13/2011-12:33pm at 12:33 pm (UTC -4)
Actually, when I joined the site, in addition to the deal TRS offered me which was WAY above what FWICG and MMO offered, I insisted on a clause which prevented others from entering in a debate between me and you.
I told him, without the clause, no way!
Prismo
5/13/2011-12:37pm at 12:37 pm (UTC -4)
Well, it’s all TRS’ fault for accepting the clause! I don’t blame you for requesting it.
kingman 26
5/13/2011-12:40pm at 12:40 pm (UTC -4)
LOL!
metsfan4decades
5/13/2011-12:47pm at 12:47 pm (UTC -4)
LOL.
I didn’t add anything b/c I figured I made my opinion known. It’s been my experience in a ‘spirited’ debate, neither side rarely changes the minds on the other side.
But for the record, I have to agree with Prismo, as I stated earlier. Omar signed that contract, no matter who asked first the clause be included.
TRS86
5/13/2011-12:51pm at 12:51 pm (UTC -4)
I still don’t see how it was designed to hurt the Mets in any way.
metsfan4decades
5/13/2011-1:03pm at 1:03 pm (UTC -4)
Really, I don’t think it’s any big deal either.
I’m just stating that Omar had the final say on allowing that clause and signing the contract. If it was a big deal, if it’s now a problem, that’s all on him, IMO.
I don’t really see KRod’s vesting option as a big deal at the time either. No one knew the financial position the Mets would be in this year, when it’s getting ready to vest. Second, I’ll bet that clause was the tipping point with KRod signing so quickly here. It is a bit of an insurance policy against injury as well.
Now…we could argue that a closer should never get that kind of money but that’s another debate completely.
njstuckintx
5/13/2011-12:39pm at 12:39 pm (UTC -4)
What is greedy? I mean, what is the limit that you are setting? If Beltran’s contract was greedy, would taking say, 2 million less a year, but having the no arb clause balance it out? I just don’t see where there is a set line in the sand on what is fair vs. greedy. It’s the American way, grab the gusto, take what you can, no?
kingman 26
5/13/2011-12:52pm at 12:52 pm (UTC -4)
Well, I guess at the root of this is difference in political and economic thinking.
I love capitalism, I co-own a small business, and I do pretty well.
I love my freedom, which has largely come due to the American Way.
But to me, I think it is better in all facets of life if–within the sphere of capitalism and democracy of course–more people get to have better lives.
My thinking extends to sports.
I think Griffey and Johnson’s allowing Seattle to trade them, unlike ARod, gave the Mariners more players and the fans a better team for years. And Griffey and Johnson still did OK.
I like the idea–which the NFL has pioneered since the AFL started 50 years ago, led by master capitalist Lamar Hunt–that everyone being a little less greedy is better for the sport overall.
Sure, Beltran has a right to ask for and get whatever he can; but I think that mentality is what has made baseball into a sport of the haves and have-nots.
TRS86
5/13/2011-12:55pm at 12:55 pm (UTC -4)
Kingman, you have yet to answer the question of how is this different than asking for a no-trade clause in a contract and if it is different then which one is more “greedy”?
kingman 26
5/13/2011-1:01pm at 1:01 pm (UTC -4)
That’s a very, very good question.
Without really pondering it, I suppose the Beltran clause is something that is specifically designed to circumvent something which baseball specifically created to help smaller teams when they lose their players to free agency.
I guess, while you do have a good, debatable point here, the no-trade is different I think, as while it does limit a team’s freedom, it does not prevent it from receiving something which baseball specifically created a rule to provide.
But this is a good point.
And if I am not mistaken, doesn’t he have a full no trade clause too?
Again, all I am saying is how much is enough? At what point should a player feel he is getting enough and should not try to put himself above the fans, the team, and the sport?
TRS86
5/13/2011-1:03pm at 1:03 pm (UTC -4)
I think you also have to realize the time period and how old Beltran would be once the contract was over. I think this stipulation was 100% designed to protect the player and I am willing to bet the Mets did not even bat an eye over it. We know nothing of the contract negotiation. It could be that Boras wanted an 8th year and the Mets declined and offered this clause.
metsfan4decades
5/13/2011-1:07pm at 1:07 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, he does have a full no trade clause as well.
How much is enough? You’re asking someone who wouldn’t see 1/8 of the money if I worked 100 years. I just can’t relate
IMO, they all make too much money. But I’m not sure blaming the players is right. They’re asking, no one has to give it to them. I say let’s blame the idiot GM or franchise that first started this practice. The one franchise that would routinely outbid to get the FAs they wanted. Wonder who that could be….
kingman 26
5/13/2011-1:15pm at 1:15 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah MF4D–I mean, I do OK and want to make a LOT more. I like nice things and nice vacations and expensive food and drink, but to me, when you already make this much, and are signing a 7/126 deal in your 20s, do you REALLY need to ask for more and more?
njstuckintx
5/13/2011-1:18pm at 1:18 pm (UTC -4)
How else can you afford to own your own island these days? And oh, the taxes… the taxes…
metsfan4decades
5/13/2011-1:20pm at 1:20 pm (UTC -4)
Probably not, Kingman. But just because they’re asking doesn’t mean the GM should be giving.
This is all on the greedy owners in the bigger markets, IMO. They created this monster.
I’m very interested to see what goes on with Pujols. What they’re saying he’s worth is just insane. I’ll be curious to see what franchise ponies up.
If I remember correctly, the reason ARod resigned with the Yankees was b/c when all was said and done, not many teams were willing to shell out what his agent was asking. As in none. ARod went back to the Yankees with his tail between his legs to negotiate that contract himself. The Yankees wanted him but they weren’t going to be held hostage by Boras to get him.
kingman 26
5/13/2011-1:22pm at 1:22 pm (UTC -4)
Damn, one of the islands off the coast of SC or GA would be sweet.
kingman 26
5/13/2011-1:23pm at 1:23 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed all around MF4D.
ARod’s situation was ridiculous, and hopefully the Yankees will eventually be in the spot the Mets are in right now.
TRS86
5/13/2011-1:28pm at 1:28 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t think it’s fair for us to say that he should not try to get the best deal because they get paid too much as is. To me there salary is irrelevant. If you would do it in your job then he should be able to in his. Regardless of how much he makes. I make MUCH more than a minimum wage guy, I do well for my self and can support my family. I have MORE than I need. In my first year of teaching in a southern state I made more in 1 year than my parents ever made combined in 1 year. Does that mean that if I could negotiate my own contract I should not try to get the best deal?
njstuckintx
5/13/2011-12:35pm at 12:35 pm (UTC -4)
To me, Boras is a genius for throwing that in the contract. He’s now opened up the entire field for bidding on a player, thus driving up the price of the player and the commission to be made. No lost picks.
The feeling that Beltran bent the Mets over on this or is selfish is just silly. We take the game and elevate it to a religion, and then say “how dare they blasphemy the game with their actions” or something like that. I’d have done the same thing if I had that leverage. How do ‘I’ not make the most of the situation when ‘they’ are looking to do the same thing?
The only blame, if blame is to be thrown around, is directly at the GM who signed Beltran, cause they didn’t have the balls to say “strike that line out of the contract or no deal”. Short-sighted would be a good description of Omar’s moves and is a direct correlation to the current state of the construction of the team and the state of the minor leagues.
And yes, I wish the Mets were getting picks for Beltran leaving, but as TRS mentioned somewhere up above, at 20 mil a year, would the Mets even offer Arb?
TRS86
5/13/2011-12:47pm at 12:47 pm (UTC -4)
I think, as much as I am not a Boras fan, it was great foresight to see a potential problem in the system and make sure his player was unaffected by the problem. It did not “cost” the Mets anything for Beltran to have this clause in his contract.
metsfan4decades
5/13/2011-12:49pm at 12:49 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed.
Omar might have been on the plus side in evaluating talent but making deals? Not so much.
TRS86
5/13/2011-12:53pm at 12:53 pm (UTC -4)
Really we don’t know how much Omar was even involved in contract negotiating. However, this clause could have actually saved them money.
TRS86
5/13/2011-12:33pm at 12:33 pm (UTC -4)
That is a completely different situation. This is a clause that was negotiated as part of the contract designed to protect the player against a broken system.
Besides, it’s pointless as the Mets would not have offered him arbitration regardless.
kingman 26
5/13/2011-12:42pm at 12:42 pm (UTC -4)
Well, the Seattle situation shows how players can behave differently and less selfishly. That was the point. Griffey and Johnson gave the team a chance to receive something for their exits; ARod did not.
And sure they might have offered arbitration—Boras and Beltran never would have accepted it.
TRS86
5/13/2011-12:49pm at 12:49 pm (UTC -4)
At 20M for 2012? I think Beltran would be foolish not to have accepted it.
And no that does not show anything in terms of negotiating a contract because I am sure all 3 were very greedy when they negotiated their contracts.
njstuckintx
5/13/2011-1:11pm at 1:11 pm (UTC -4)
If Beltran decides not to waive his no trade clause, that might be selfish, but players generally don’t waive items in the contract unless they are getting something in return. More money, a guarantee of some sort or even just the opportunity to play for a winner. If Boston wanted Beltran but he goes, “nah, no thanks”, then that would be sticking it to the Mets.
stickguy
5/13/2011-12:33pm at 12:33 pm (UTC -4)
I agree with MF on the surgery issue.
Anytime you go with the rest/rehab option (what doctors always want to do 1st if possible), there is the risk that you ultimately need surgery anyway, and get it later than if you had it right away.
By all reports (and remember, Beltan was playing at the end of 2009), everyone felt that rest was a good option (since there really was not a surgical solution to a bone bruise, short of microfracture).
and more reports said he was feeling good, and it was not until he ramped up workouts (late december?) that the pain started. So that is why he needed the work done in January.
Also, it was never 100% clear, but the procedure he had did NOT delay him coming back (a basic clean out job), but it was due to complications of the bone bruise. Of course I have no idea who related they are (if at all), but it is not certain that the January work (unless it really was a secret microfracture job) was what kept him out so long.
and I certainly can’t imagine how much it must hurt to play BB on an arthritic knee with no cartlige!
TRS86
5/13/2011-1:08pm at 1:08 pm (UTC -4)
Honestly at the time of the contract who would have even thought that clause would matter? This was the NY Mets, I am sure they assumed that IF Beltran was a type A player at the end of the contract he would be going nowhere and would be re-signed. The Mets have shown during the Omar tenure that they did not value draft picks that highly anyway as they lost many to signing Type A FA and then by not going over slot on the ones they had. Asking them to anticipate the need to rebuild in 2005 and that a compensation draft pick would even be significantly valuable in 2012?
kingman 26
5/13/2011-1:11pm at 1:11 pm (UTC -4)
Well, maybe, but one could argue that getting David Wright when losing Hampton SHOULD have made this situation something the organization might consider….
metsfan4decades
5/13/2011-1:15pm at 1:15 pm (UTC -4)
‘The Mets have shown during the Omar tenure that they did not value draft picks that highly anyway as they lost many to signing Type A FA and then by not going over slot on the ones they had.’
Bingo. Spot on. Right on the money. 100% agree.
This is the number one reason we’re in the mess we are right now, IMO – as those who read regularly probably already know. Every pick you can get helps. We’ve got some nice talent in the minors but the reason the Mets farm system isn’t rated very highly is b/c it’s thin. I’m not sure not going overslot was on Omar or the Wilpons but I know for sure signing Alou again and not taking the picks was just plain dumb.
TRS86
5/13/2011-1:37pm at 1:37 pm (UTC -4)
4D, I am still confused why you use Alou as an example. We could not get any picks from Alou. We offered him a 1 year deal with an extension year. The first year was for 7.5M. The option year was for 7.5M. At the end of 2007 he was coming off a year that he only played 87 games and was a Type B FA. If the Mets had offered arbitration he would have taken it and ran like the wind blows.
stickguy
5/13/2011-2:43pm at 2:43 pm (UTC -4)
Alou went the other way. Omar rushed to sign him early, before SF had to offer him arb (which they most likely were not going to do), forfeiting his 1st round pick in the process, instead of waiting to see if he could be had without losing the pick.
actually the same scenario where the Mets got Ike from the Braves.
Not sure if the mets could have offered Alou instead after the 1st year to get picks instead of signing him to a 2 year deal.
TRS86
5/13/2011-2:49pm at 2:49 pm (UTC -4)
They could have declined the option and then offered him arbitration. I think the option had a 2M buyout. Thus they could A) Have Alou back for a net of 5M. B) decline the option, offer arbitration and have to pay the 2M AND most likely his new salary obtained in arbitration as he would not have declined. C) Walked away.
So B was the least likely and at 5M bringing Alou back was risky but not a huge loss. The larger issue was that they did not bring in MLB talent to the roster as a backup.
kistics
5/13/2011-1:31pm at 1:31 pm (UTC -4)
In addition to that, I think the player development was very lacking as well. You can only do so much through draft picks. Don’t forget that Josh Johnson was a 4th round pick. Tommy Hanson was a 22nd round pick. Craig Kimbrel was a 3rd round pick. So on and so forth…
Even if they did not get 1st round picks, they certainly had their chance to draft AND develop young players.
And what about Latin American players? I thought Omar was supposed to have the right connections?
kistics
5/13/2011-1:43pm at 1:43 pm (UTC -4)
Let’s say you’re offered a job. No one that I know will take the initial offer and say “Okay, this is a lot of money, so I’ll just take it”. EVERYONE will try to get as much as they can out of the position. Even if it’s not monetary thing, you can certainly ask for more vacation time, or better working hours, etc etc.
I just don’t see that as being greedy. If the conditions are right and you are able to get that, why not take it?
TRS86
5/13/2011-1:51pm at 1:51 pm (UTC -4)
I think Kingman feels this way because of how much money the contract was already worth. However, to me that is irrelevant.
kistics
5/13/2011-2:04pm at 2:04 pm (UTC -4)
Even it’s a Goldman Sachs executive, I’m pretty sure they will try to negotiate something before accepting the job.
If Beltran signed for $125M instead of $119M, but did not have the clause, does that make him less greedy?
kingman 26
5/13/2011-2:14pm at 2:14 pm (UTC -4)
And Goldman Sachs executives are the very best examples in our society of greed and putting yourself above ANYTHING.
Great example.
TRS86
5/13/2011-2:16pm at 2:16 pm (UTC -4)
Yet he still has a point, regardless of how much money you make you are going to want the best deal you can get. Again, I make at this point twice as much as my parents ever made combined. I want for nothing yet would I be greedy if I ask for more?
kingman 26
5/13/2011-5:06pm at 5:06 pm (UTC -4)
How can you compare your 40K teaching job with a baseball player making 18 mil a year?
Why do you do this?
TRS86
5/13/2011-7:43pm at 7:43 pm (UTC -4)
Because money is irrelevant. I have more than I could possibly need and yet I would still ask for more if I thought it was out there. I harbor no ill will towards baseball players making a lot of money. The more they make the better if that includes a no trade clause or a arbitration stipulation, why do I care?
kingman 26
5/13/2011-8:23pm at 8:23 pm (UTC -4)
Oy!
You would ask for more because YOU MAKE VERY LITTLE!!
If you are happy now, imagine how utterly ridiculous it would be to demand more IF YOU MADE 18 MILLION!!!!!
gategem
5/14/2011-12:34am at 12:34 am (UTC -4)
Kong, on Long Island and specifically in the town of Islip experienced teachers with a masters degree earn over $100,000 annually.
kingman 26
5/14/2011-11:46am at 11:46 am (UTC -4)
They don’t make anywhere near that where TRS lives.
kistics
5/13/2011-2:22pm at 2:22 pm (UTC -4)
If you were offered to make $2M per year for writing this blog. And you know you can get season tickets to Citi Field if you asked, you wouldn’t ask for it?
You would say “I think I’m making enough money here, so I don’t need the season tickets”?
You are a good man if you wouldn’t ask for it. But I bet you that 90% of the Mets fans will ask for it.
TRS86
5/13/2011-2:38pm at 2:38 pm (UTC -4)
I think the sticking point I have is that the Mets most likely did not even see the clause as a sticking point. They probably said “Sure… wait… WHY?” In 2005 the idea that draft pick compensation would affect the Mets? Psh…
njstuckintx
5/13/2011-2:39pm at 2:39 pm (UTC -4)
sec 128, row 10, seat 17 for tonight.
sec. 252, row 9, seat 6 for sat.
and (fingers crossed), sec 120, row 4, seat 4. for sunday.
Let’s go Mets!
kistics
5/13/2011-2:51pm at 2:51 pm (UTC -4)
You’re not sitting right behind the home plate and yell “Let’s go Mets!!” just like that guy in Colorado?
njstuckintx
5/13/2011-3:04pm at 3:04 pm (UTC -4)
If I get those seats, I’ll yell through the whole 3rd inning, just so you know it’s me.
Prismo
5/13/2011-3:18pm at 3:18 pm (UTC -4)
Great chance to yell out “GO TO REAL DIRTY METS DOT COM!!!!!” several times and have everyone watching SNY hear you.
kistics
5/13/2011-3:25pm at 3:25 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah and if you bring a really hot girl with you, that’s even better (for us)…
Prismo
5/13/2011-3:36pm at 3:36 pm (UTC -4)
+1
njstuckintx
5/13/2011-4:00pm at 4:00 pm (UTC -4)
Knowing you all will be watching, i’ll have my wife wear a burkah. Letches… ;P
kistics
5/13/2011-4:15pm at 4:15 pm (UTC -4)
It’s May in Houston… you must dress appropriately..
njstuckintx
5/13/2011-4:24pm at 4:24 pm (UTC -4)
They should have the roof closed already and the A/C pumping!
njstuckintx
5/13/2011-3:59pm at 3:59 pm (UTC -4)
I could just wear a RDM shirt too. Just overnight one to me…
kistics
5/13/2011-4:16pm at 4:16 pm (UTC -4)
Who the heck is Bubba Bell?
njstuckintx
5/13/2011-4:21pm at 4:21 pm (UTC -4)
Aren’t those the little cheeses dipped in wax?