During the 3rd inning on a ball hit to 1st, Dickey injured his left heel trying to cover 1st. Had to be helped off the field. Pedro Beato came in for relief.
May 26
Man Down: Dickey injures left heel
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102 comments
stickguy
5/26/2011-3:53pm at 3:53 pm (UTC -4)
well, this pretty much sucks. I am truly afraid to think who is next on the depth chart.
Dirtysanchez
5/26/2011-4:07pm at 4:07 pm (UTC -4)
I would guess DJ but that does not really help with the anxiety lol
metsfan4decades
5/26/2011-4:18pm at 4:18 pm (UTC -4)
Misch, Carrasco or some combo of the two.
This really, truly does suck. It’s almost 2009 all over again.
gategem
5/27/2011-1:41am at 1:41 am (UTC -4)
LOL You better start getting in shape. LOL
stickguy
5/26/2011-4:01pm at 4:01 pm (UTC -4)
and Beato picked a bad day to look like a rule 5 rookie who recently came back from an injury!
metsfan4decades
5/26/2011-4:15pm at 4:15 pm (UTC -4)
‘We’re just snake bitten, baby’.
gategem
5/26/2011-5:36pm at 5:36 pm (UTC -4)
Was it you or stickguy (or perhaps both) that pointed out that the Phillies have been hit with a wave of injuries? Yet the Phillies find themselves 12 games over .500. That’s what a quality organization provides. It’s called depth and is much needed over a grueling marathon season. I have no sympathy for the Mets and their “wonderful” owners the Wilpons (why do I think of the Flintstones?). But I have empathy for all the Mets fans such as stickguy and yourself since I suffer right along with you.
metsfan4decades
5/26/2011-6:23pm at 6:23 pm (UTC -4)
Probably both of us since we’re the two regulars on here who apparently hate the Phillies the most. LOL.
I don’t know about depth so much with the Phills. Before last year, they hardly had any injuries. Last year most were of the 2 week variety and minimal, except maybe Rollins.
Look at their replacements and bench though.
- Wilson Valdez? Really? We had him, he sucked, we waved bye-bye. He goes over to Phillies and fills in admirably.
- Schneider is barely a back up catcher. They had no one really ready on the farm but brought someone up when Ruiz went down. Those 2 did fine for the duration until Schneider went down and Chooch came back.
- Utley out until this week. Polanco out for 15 days. Victorino out for 15 days. Ben Fran basically sucks but Mayberry isn’t that bad. ‘Mini-Mart’ Martinez is awful.
I could go on and on but even with the multitude of injuries, and their long stretch of scoring 3 runs or less what’s kept them winning for a large part is their SP. Hands down. They’ weren’t scoring either, they were making their share of injuries but their SP was very good. We don’t come close.
I agree though about depth. Half the excuse if a multitude of injuries you can’t account for. The other half is no balance of talent up and down the minor league farms. We’ve got some nice talent but hardly any of it is AAA almost ready. Mejia might have been but he’s lost for the season as well.
Some might not label it ‘rebuilding’ but I have to think right now we’re a good 3 years away from competing. After that, it’s anyone’s guess.
TRS86
5/27/2011-7:51am at 7:51 am (UTC -4)
Actually it just goes to show you and what we fear the most. No matter how good or bad your offense is winning still depends on pitching. When you have that rotation, you could have our AAA lineup and still be winning the division.
kingman 26
5/27/2011-9:50am at 9:50 am (UTC -4)
Hey thanks for quoting me verbatim from March!
kingman 26
5/26/2011-4:34pm at 4:34 pm (UTC -4)
Ah, Dickey injured and Beato comes back to reality.
I am seriously almost afraid of what this team will be like after the brutal schedule stretch that soon begins.
Hell, we may even lose 6 of 8 to the Pirates!
Dirtysanchez
5/26/2011-4:36pm at 4:36 pm (UTC -4)
Somewhere between the way we started the season and the way we played early may.
Gotta take into consideration our two big bats are out of the lineup…not alot of teams would be killing it with that situation
metsfan4decades
5/26/2011-4:39pm at 4:39 pm (UTC -4)
You know where this script is going though.
We’ll get the hitters back, score 6 runs a game but our mediocre pitchers are going to give up 8.
saltygary
5/26/2011-5:03pm at 5:03 pm (UTC -4)
If these guys get 8 wins before ASB that will be a major positive.
stickguy
5/26/2011-5:28pm at 5:28 pm (UTC -4)
seemed silly until I realized that is only about 7.5 week away.n so round it off to 8, 1 per week… Hard but doable!
sadder though, that is only about 5 weeks until the trade action really heats up.
rustyjr
5/26/2011-6:17pm at 6:17 pm (UTC -4)
YA GOTTA BELIEVE ?
metsfan4decades
5/26/2011-6:25pm at 6:25 pm (UTC -4)
O.K., TC saying on post game that doctor’s saying this afternoon the achilles tendon is ‘fully whole’ so they’re ruling that out right now.
Won’t know until tomorrow.
How much will it hurt if you lose RA for an extended period of time?
‘A lot’.
metsfan4decades
5/26/2011-6:30pm at 6:30 pm (UTC -4)
RA on post game:
‘Burning sensation in my heel and I just went down’.
‘Like I stepped on a spike from a railroad tie’.
He went down because of the pain.
He says he’s optimistic, he’s a pretty quick healer and we’ll just have to see what the evaluation says.
Ray Ramirez ruled out the achilles tendon. Oh boy….
hazmet
5/26/2011-7:21pm at 7:21 pm (UTC -4)
So the Mets Dickey has a burning sensation…..
Fill in your own punch line.
Gotta laugh to keep from crying.
gategem
5/26/2011-8:08pm at 8:08 pm (UTC -4)
A friend of mine actually stepped on a spike that went through his entire foot. A few weeks later he fell on bamboo he was cutting and a ¾” branch went through his leg. So it could be worse.
saltygary
5/26/2011-7:49pm at 7:49 pm (UTC -4)
Article only available to ESPN insiders:
The shortstop shortage
By Steven Goldman
Baseball Prospectus
Eight years ago, the class of major league catchers was older than it had been at any time in the last 60 years. In 2003, the average major league backstop was over 30 years old. In the early- to mid-1990s, there had been an influx of strong catchers into the majors, among them Javy Lopez, Jorge Posada, Jason Kendall, Jason Varitek, Charles Johnson, Mike Lieberthal and Ivan Rodriguez, all of them except for Kendall born between November 1970 and July 1972. A few years after the turn of the millennium, those players were now in their early 30s, but the next generation had largely failed to arrive in the interim.
This is not at all unusual; baseball has always gone through cycles in which a position suffers through a dearth of qualified applicants. There was even a moment in the American League of the late 1940s when shortstops outhit the first basemen — somehow the circuit just couldn’t find any solid mashers to stand at the gateway. Currently, the biggest void at any position is shortstop, and that makes the Mets’ handling of impending free agent Jose Reyes that much trickier because he is one of the game’s rarest commodities, a star shortstop in his prime.
To get a sense of how losing Reyes would affect the Mets, we can look back to the catcher shortage of the early 21st century. After the 2002 season, the Rangers had to make a decision as to whether to re-sign free agent Ivan Rodriguez after a year in which the then-30-year-old had hit .314/.353/.542 in a season shortened to 108 games by a herniated disc in his back. The Rangers demurred, allowing Rodriguez to go to Florida on a one-year contract. During that one year, and for the year after with Detroit, Rodriguez continued to perform at a high level, helping the 2003 Marlins win the World Series and pushing a moribund Tigers franchise back toward respectability.
Although Rodriguez declined rapidly after that second year, he remained a useful player relative to the class of catchers for most of the five-year contract he signed with the Tigers subsequent to the Marlins’ championship. Had the Rangers been able to re-sign him to a five-year contract after 2002, they would have been substantially better off than what they got instead — one year of Einar Diaz and Todd Greene (aggregate: .247/.282/.379), followed by three years of Rod Barajas (.253/.294/.444), and onward through a malaise at the position that lasts to this day.
The Rangers’ decision was not an easy one given Rodriguez’s age, injury status, and the incredible catching workload he had been under since reaching the majors as a 19-year-old in 1991, but Reyes doesn’t carry the same kind of risk. Though it seems Mets owner Fred Wilpon has made the decision not to retain Reyes, after his now-infamous remarks in the most recent New Yorker, he should think twice about his shortstop’s value. He would be by far the most attractive available shortstop in a period so devoid of good young players at the position that no matter who the Mets acquire in a potential Reyes trade, their value will be dramatically offset by the inevitable hard decline at the position.
Because the position demands speed, quick reflexes and agility, shortstop has always been a job for the young — until now. This year, the average age of shortstops throughout the majors is 28.8, the oldest the class as a whole has been at any time since 1950, and nearly two years older than the average age over that that 60-year period.
Derek Jeter, 37, and dying by inches on the biggest stage in sports, is emblematic of a declining class of middle infielders. The Giants opened the season trying to get by with Miguel Tejada, also 37. The man he replaced, Edgar Renteria, now with the Reds, is 34. The Red Sox began the year with a 35-year-old shortstop, Marco Scutaro. Jamey Carroll, who the Dodgers substituted for injured 33-year-old Rafael Furcal, is 37. Even seemingly younger shortstops who have lately received playing time in place of these decrepit graybeards, like Jed Lowrie and J.J. Hardy, have already celebrated their 27th birthdays, meaning they will soon pass the prime age for the position as baseball has defined it for at least half a century.
The Mets do have a promising player who is, at least, ostensibly a shortstop, an already-hulking teen named Wilmer Flores, but he is currently playing at high Class A St. Lucie, meaning that he is at least two years from the majors. In any case, given his size, scouts believe he will outgrow short and be forced to third base or an outfield corner. The other internal option is Ruben Tejada, and while he’s a nice young player, it’s unlikely he will ever have the kind of impact that Reyes does.
Reyes, currently hitting .316/.366/.455 with a league-leading six triples, is already 28, but his speed, which manifests itself not only in those triples but in 17 stolen bases as well, should age well, as it should allow him to remain a viable defender for longer than the average player. His long-term work at the plate is more questionable given the way his patience has ebbed over time, but the capability is there.
Despite Wilpon’s claim that Reyes has “had everything wrong with him,” he has had only one serious injury year (2009) in the past seven. Last year’s thyroid imbalance was an unusual, off-field medical problem that seems unlikely to recur with proper medical care. Whoever acquires Reyes should find themselves in possession of a reasonably durable player.
The Mets need to rebuild, but Reyes can and should be part of that rebuilding. Without him, the path will be significantly longer and more difficult as the team struggles to find a replacement at a position where there are none to be had. It is almost impossible to trade a star player for an appreciable return because a contending team won’t give up a star to get a star, and however highly prospects are rated, the odds are always against them becoming All-Stars. That’s why the star was valuable in the first place — he’s a rarity. In Reyes’ case, that rarity is doubled by the current drought at his position.
On Thursday morning it was announced that the Wilpons had sold part of the Mets to hedge fund manager David Einhorn for $200 million. This seems unlikely to obviate the financial difficulties into which the club has been placed due to ownership being embroiled in the Bernie Madoff Ponzi scheme. Regardless, if the club is ever to regain its financial footing, whether for Wilpon or some other owner, it is important for it to maintain attendance and television ratings, something impossible without fielding a winning team. That task will be significantly easier with Reyes than with the nonentity that will surely have to replace him should he be traded or allowed to leave as a free agent.
Steven Goldman is the editor-in-chief of Baseball Prospectus. In addition to writing the historical analysis column “You Could Look It Up” and numerous other features for BaseballProspectus.com, he has edited the BP-authored books Mind Game and It Ain’t Over ‘Til It’s Over, and contributed to Baseball Between the Numbers. Steven is also the author of Forging Genius: The Making of Casey Stengel. He has contributed to the BP annual since 2005 and has been co-editor of the last five editions. He is also the creator of the long-running Pinstripedbible.com for the YES Network.
metsfan4decades
5/26/2011-8:43pm at 8:43 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks for posting the article as I’m not an ESPN insider.
In my opinion, he’s right. They’re not going to replace Reyes at SS. Those arguing that his type production could be replaced at another position have a point, but it still leaves the Mets with average or replacement level type at SS. And how great would it be to have Reyes there while getting production at another position or two – not just ‘replacing’ it at that position?
And hello Fred….half of what was wrong with Reyes in ’09 was your guys idiotic idea of not DLing him right away to begin with, keeping him on the bench useless, then trying to get him back out there again in 10 days. I keep going back to Omar’s ‘we have to weigh the doctor’s advice against putting our best players on the DL’ BS.
They turn right around and do the same thing last year. He hurts the oblique, they don’t DL him, they tape it up and put him back out there in a week or so. Reyes admitted it bothered him the rest of the season. Thankfully, someone seems to have a clue this year (Sandy?) as they seemed to have handled Pagan’s same injury with the attention it deserved.
Better management Fred, all the way around and this team would not be nearly as ‘snake bitten’ as it currently appears to you.
saltygary
5/26/2011-8:52pm at 8:52 pm (UTC -4)
Your welcome, I thought it was a good article for the pro-Reyes camp. Reyes’s injury management was based on desperation and was poorly executed.
It gets tougher each day saying to trade Reyes based on his results. The one thing that doesn’t let me swith my opinion is I feel the team is 3 years away from legitimate competition and spending all that money on one guy can be better served elsewhere. But I don’t think pro-Reyes people are wrong in anyway. IT will be a complete crap shoot and only time will tell.
metsfan4decades
5/26/2011-9:22pm at 9:22 pm (UTC -4)
You make a very good point about the 3 years or so away from a good competing team. I’m really torn. I wanted Reyes resigned, but I understand about spending the money for a player such as he on a team that’s likely to go nowhere.
But dang…give me one reason to tune in every night while waiting for Sandy to rebuild…..
stickguy
5/27/2011-9:51am at 9:51 am (UTC -4)
if it takes 3 years for them to be serious contenders, reyes will still be in his prime (31). younger than Utley, howard or rollins is today, and the Phils I believe are still considered a contender!
Play what it for 2013. Say they resign reyes. And havens is finally good to go after the rib job, and becomes the player many people project him to be.
you would have prime or early prime reyes/wrgiht/havens/davis Potentially a top meat of any NL order, and reminiscent of the phils glory days.
Builiding that core is the hardest part (or should be). Some intelligent moves to fill out the rest of the lineup, and it can be a strong team (O and D).
so as always, that leaves SP. again, if they finally hit on 1-2 of the young guys in the system, and a smart/lucky move to fill out the staff, and sure they can have the talent to compete in 2013.
Teams can change really fast in MLB (for the better or worse). and from that standpoint, 2013 is actually a long time from now, even though it is only 2 seasons away!
TRS86
5/27/2011-10:02am at 10:02 am (UTC -4)
The problem is that Omar left us in such a mess in the organization that I am just not sure we have the talent in the minors to re-sign Reyes and just hope and wait. It might even change Sandy’s draft strategy. Do you draft HS pitchers knowing it will take 4-5 years for them to come up or take college guys trying to get them here before Reyes leaves?
metsfan4decades
5/26/2011-8:45pm at 8:45 pm (UTC -4)
Anyone watching the game today saw poor defense and fundies on both sides. The difference being though the Cubs made some great defensive plays to go along with their poor ones, ‘robbing’ the Mets of some needed hits.
Why does it always seem that when one thing goes wrong in a ballgame for the Mets, the floodgates open and it all goes south?
kingman 26
5/26/2011-9:20pm at 9:20 pm (UTC -4)
At this point, more and more I am semi-seriously believing the curse thing.
We win Friday in Yankee Stadium to reach .500, and then what? We lose 4 of 5, including 2 of 3 to the absolutely mediocre as hell Cubs. With the Phils next.
I don’t even know what to think. Are they a .500 team, or are they just close because they went 4-1 recently against the two worst teams in the NL, the Nats and Astros?
It’s funny but it’s not; it’s getting hard to stay psyched. I really am trying, but we are watching a AAAA team right now.
This was one of the “easy” series before the death march part of the schedule. Look at the schedule—Phils, Pirates, Braves, Brewers, Pirates, Braves, then the AL.
The Brewers are hot as hell. If we lose 6 of 8 to the Pirates, that could be the end of this team and the beginning of the fire sale.
It’s frigin sad, and while I abhor violence, if a lynch mob is rounded up to find Omar, I’m joining.
metsfan4decades
5/26/2011-9:29pm at 9:29 pm (UTC -4)
I’ve pretty much written this season off so I don’t think I’m gonna torture myself with staying psyched. I’m of the opinion though that bad NY Met baseball is better than no NY Met baseball so I’ll be one fan tuning in for just about every game.
I’d love nothing more for fortunes to change and see a second half run but that’s probably wishful thinking on my part.
I hear you on the being cursed thing. Truly, to go along with a somewhat poorly constructed team, will someone tell me how/why these injuries keep happening in this multitude to our ball players? Yeah, Young was a roll of the dice, but Dickey? How about Mejia? Ike on a fluke collusion, Wright on a play at third, Reyes with thyroid problems, hamstring pulls, tears, obliques by the handful, and on and on. It’s just beyond bizarre anymore, isn’t it?
The more time that goes by, the more that is said, the more that comes out, I’m starting to believe the Wilpons and Omar were of one mind. Wilpons were perfectly content with the way Omar was running the club, Omar didn’t see the hole he was digging.
kingman 26
5/26/2011-9:32pm at 9:32 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, no Met baseball would just suck.
The injuries? I don’t know. With Ike, Wright, and Dickey, at this point we just cannot talk about conditioning or the trainers, can we?
Are there three players less likely to be slacking and out of shape than these guys?
This is why the curse is starting to seem like the only answer!!
hazmet
5/26/2011-9:59pm at 9:59 pm (UTC -4)
And those 3 players at this moment while on the DL are still more productive at this very moment the Jason Bay. What an epic fail.
Bay = the Pelfrey of position players.
Yeah, I’m still pissed with Pelf,..
hazmet
5/26/2011-9:59pm at 9:59 pm (UTC -4)
*than Jason Bay
Prismo
5/26/2011-10:00pm at 10:00 pm (UTC -4)
Curse = Wilpons!!!!!
stickguy
5/26/2011-10:47pm at 10:47 pm (UTC -4)
I agree with the comments that the entire organizational philosophy, and everything Omar did, was exactly what the wilpons wanted. They weren’t poor saps taken for a ride by a sneaky GM (for 20 years).
stickguy
5/26/2011-10:45pm at 10:45 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t see any of those 3 as related at all to the trainers/medical staff.Or being lazy slackers, etc.
Wright broke a bone on a weird dive. It happens, a fluke. DW is in shape.
Ike got run over. Poor fundies, but a fluke.
no idea yet what Dickey did, but so far does not seem related to training or conditioning.
if anything, give them credit for getting Reyes and Beltran back and in good shape, playing every day!
metsfan4decades
5/26/2011-11:00pm at 11:00 pm (UTC -4)
In the booth, Keith was saying: ‘well you know, you have an older player, really cold conditions, taking a couple of steps over to first then busting it when he saw Murph was out of position and wasn’t going to be at first to get the throw’.
Can’t blame Murph but on the replay, just watching him stop and stand there when he realized it was Tejada’s ball and HE was getting it I couldn’t help but think: ‘WTF, Murph’? (not blaming him though for RA’s injury.)
My second thought was ‘old’? I just have a hard time wrapping my brain around 35 being old. Wish I was 35 again. LOL.
gategem
5/27/2011-1:35am at 1:35 am (UTC -4)
This blog is starting to become bizarre. Over the years I’ve seen other teams in all professional sports suffer waves of injuries and sometimes in multiple years. The fans of those teams I’m sure also took a “why me” and” it only happens to us” attitude. But this “cursed” thing is carrying it a little too far.
kingman 26
5/27/2011-8:57am at 8:57 am (UTC -4)
Gategem, as the wise elder of this site, I don’t want you getting the wrong impression.
While I am quite sure that Lee Harvey Oswald did not act alone regardless of what he did or did not do up in that window, I definitely do not believe in curses, hexes or conspiracies as a matter of course.
I am joking when I mention this, simply because I am not sure I have seen so much bad luck befell a team of mine ever, and while I do not have your longevity yet, and while my Dolphins have a healthy history, I have been watching the Mets religiously since 1973 and the Nets since 1976, so I know bad teams and bad luck!
TRS86
5/27/2011-9:27am at 9:27 am (UTC -4)
I just don’t think it’s bad luck Kingman. It’s events that take place based on a poor course of actions. Good teams have players like Wright go down all the time, yet because of great planning are able to survive. The ones that don’t plan well? Don’t survive. So while we have had a ton of injuries, it’s because of our lack of depth that we have suffered to the amount we have. Seriously, our only back up to Wright is a 28 year old 2B with almost no MLB experience. Our back up at 1B is our 2B, our back up at 2B is playing 3B and our future SS is playing 2B while career backup Pridie is starting in CF while as you say our 4th OF Pagan and starting CF is on the shelf.
While luck may occur, as Napoleon would say we have certainly not taken advantage of our own accidents.
kingman 26
5/27/2011-9:32am at 9:32 am (UTC -4)
Yes I totally agree with this.
I am only saying bad luck as regards the number of injuries to important players.
The failure to survive despite this clearly is due to, to use another old European reference, our team being a Potemkin Village team. Shiny and bright at first glance, but absolutely hollow, thin, and worthless at the foundation and inside.
stickguy
5/27/2011-9:38am at 9:38 am (UTC -4)
part of the problem is that it always seems that with the mets, the backups go down first, then the starters go down, meaning we are into desperation territory on the depth chart.
Lutz was playing very well, would have been a nice option to try when wright goes down, but he gets hurt first. I think they lost a 1B option too.
how many teams have a guy just sitting in the dugout get hit in the eye with a ball, and maybe have his career end?
no, they did not have 3-4 super promising options waiting to fill every position, but no team has that!
TRS86
5/27/2011-9:41am at 9:41 am (UTC -4)
Come on though Stick. Lutz was not even regarded as a prospect and is no more depth than Fmart is.
stickguy
5/26/2011-10:49pm at 10:49 pm (UTC -4)
pet peeve. Fred never said they did not want to, would not, or could not sign reyes. He simply said that he did not think Reyes would get a contract as big as Crawfords.
I honestly don’t think that changed anything about how they plan to approach him, or what he does. Hell, if anything, it is better than if he had dropped his shorts and said we will do anything to retain him!
metsfan4decades
5/26/2011-11:01pm at 11:01 pm (UTC -4)
I’m in agreement about that quote.
I’m just crossing my fingers that if Sandy decides the way to go is to give Reyes a fair offer, Wilpon will not oppose it and Reyes will accept it.
TRS86
5/27/2011-7:54am at 7:54 am (UTC -4)
Sorry guys about no post game article. I was out of the house and when I saw that this article had been posted, I assumed it was a post game article. Oh well.
Here’s your post game: Mets stink, one of the few good players we have left goes down for what may be a serious injury, Mets owners got some cash to save the team from going bankrupt. The end.
kingman 26
5/27/2011-8:54am at 8:54 am (UTC -4)
Well, there won’t be many games less deserving of a postgame than that piece of trash. The best part for me is that it was an afternoon game so I was spared watching any of it!
As I said above, when it is Wright, Ike, and Dickey getting hurt, we cannot even begin to think about blaming the trainers, medical staff or work habits, no matter how unreasonable we want to be!
It is seriously just one of the very worst stretches of bad luck in team history.
Unreal, and, my friend, I feel clearly going to get much worse over the next 6-8 weeks.
Can we win 6 of 8 with the Pirates? If not, who exactly will we be beating over the next two months? Oakland? The Dodgers in LA?
stickguy
5/27/2011-9:02am at 9:02 am (UTC -4)
sure, why not. Neither one of those teams is exactly a world beater.
this weekend will be an interesting test at home.
TRS86
5/27/2011-9:17am at 9:17 am (UTC -4)
A consecutive series of great actions never is the result of chance and luck; it always is a product of planning and genius…Is it because they were lucky that great men become great? No, but being great, they have been able to master luck. What is luck? The ability to exploit accidents.
Napoleon.
stickguy
5/27/2011-9:23am at 9:23 am (UTC -4)
I agree with that for good luck. Bad luck however can be just that, bad luck!
TRS86
5/27/2011-9:35am at 9:35 am (UTC -4)
But that’s not what he is saying. He is saying there is no difference and you have to take advantage of each “accident” which is all luck is. The Phillies have in some ways mastered luck by preparing for bad luck.
stickguy
5/27/2011-9:55am at 9:55 am (UTC -4)
there is a difference though on an individual level. A guy that works like a dog to be the best he can that finally gets a chance to play due to another’s injury, and takes over the job, is not lucky. A guy that gets hurt in a fluke off field accident and has his career ruined is unlucky.
I see your point about teams preparing for bad things to happen, but still, that can only cover you for a little bit.
you might have a couple of good prospects, but if 3-4 of your top guys go down, you ain’t replacing that production.
TRS86
5/27/2011-9:58am at 9:58 am (UTC -4)
Why can’t you? Look at what the Phillies are doing this year. When you build a well-rounded team with depth at multiple positions you can survive these things. Of course bad luck can happen to an individual but as a leader of a team you can’t ever let that be an excuse.
kingman 26
5/27/2011-9:33am at 9:33 am (UTC -4)
That is a fine quote, and I believe the baseball parallel is how Tim McCarver, when he announced for the Mets during the glory days of long, long ago, use to say “You make your own luck.”
TRS86
5/27/2011-9:38am at 9:38 am (UTC -4)
Yup, I ran across this one a while ago and use it every year in coaching. When I took my current job last May the team had played 10 games that were decided by 10 points or less and had lost all of them. They were 0-6 in games decided by 3 points or less. Most of the players wanted to say they just had a lot of bad luck, shot would rim out, ball would bounce wrong, player would foul out or get hurt, other team would hit a lucky shot…
One of my first challenges was to get them to understand that is not luck but poor play and poor planning.
gategem
5/27/2011-2:32pm at 2:32 pm (UTC -4)
“Luck is the residue of design.” – Branch Rickey
njstuckintx
5/27/2011-9:04am at 9:04 am (UTC -4)
Dickey, while a good guy, I would not consider to be one of the ‘good players’ on this team. Yes, his run last year was fantastic. His run this year is not.
TRS86
5/27/2011-9:06am at 9:06 am (UTC -4)
See that’s kind of tough as well. Baseball is always about streaks, it’s not where you were but where you are right Kingman?
kingman 26
5/27/2011-9:09am at 9:09 am (UTC -4)
Alas, it sure is for this team TRS!
I just meant that Dickey seems to be a serious, thoughtful guy who even I could never blame for not being in shape, prepared, etc.
It was easy for me to blame Bay for getting hurt, even if I am wrong, but when it is Wright, Ike, and Dickey (and Johan), I mean, things just ain’t going good here.
njstuckintx
5/27/2011-9:17am at 9:17 am (UTC -4)
There is no way to polish up this turd, for sure.
TRS86
5/27/2011-9:21am at 9:21 am (UTC -4)
I really can’t see how it could be easy to blame Bay either. The guy crashed into a wall going full out in a season that offensively he sucked. To me he is nothing but a professional.
Regardless, my point with Dickey is that he truly is one of the better players on this team. Yeah that could be an indictment of the team but his leadership and poise is something that surely would be missed.
kingman 26
5/27/2011-9:29am at 9:29 am (UTC -4)
No no, I blame Bay for THIS year’s injury and the slow start.
NOT just for refusing the minicamp, but for not being there early with Wright after not doing jack baseball-wise for over 6 months.
TRS86
5/27/2011-9:39am at 9:39 am (UTC -4)
Whatever Kingman. Lets just agree to disagree on this one because NEITHER of us know or have a clue what Bay did this off-season, what the team allowed him to do, or really anything other than.
stickguy
5/27/2011-9:41am at 9:41 am (UTC -4)
I am sure he was working out and training during the off season. there were plenty of reports discussing this.
besides, early arrivals to camp are more out of boredom, and wanting to get out of the cold weather! Not like Wright was doing much those first couple weeks. Lite workouts, some BP, a little lifting, and scoping out the local talent.
all stuff Bay could easily do in his home gym/practice facilities.
kingman 26
5/27/2011-9:54am at 9:54 am (UTC -4)
All true what you both say; just trying hard to find someone to blame here.
But is it REALLY that hard to think that after his salary, performance, and injury time in 2010, that it is THAT unreasonable to suggest that showing up early would have shown a great attitude, and more importantly that a few more weeks in FLA MIGHT have prevented the ridiculous injury swinging the bat?
stickguy
5/27/2011-9:56am at 9:56 am (UTC -4)
just blame Jerry. works for me.
or Omar if you prefer.
TRS86
5/27/2011-10:00am at 10:00 am (UTC -4)
We still don’t know Kingman what the team even TOLD him to do. That is why I really can’t get on his case.
kingman 26
5/27/2011-10:03am at 10:03 am (UTC -4)
You are right. Absolutely.
I just would have liked to see him there with Wright, early, smiling, eager to put 2010 behind him.
He wasn’t.
That’s really all I am saying. Idealistic? Maybe. Flat-out dumb? Maybe.
But hey, you have come over to my side on some other things here, so time will tell….
stickguy
5/27/2011-9:16am at 9:16 am (UTC -4)
actually, the key part is where you are going.
TRS86
5/27/2011-9:22am at 9:22 am (UTC -4)
Right but if you currently have a flat tire then you are going to go nowhere until you fix it.
stickguy
5/27/2011-9:42am at 9:42 am (UTC -4)
I was thinking more of players (like Dickey, or pelf).
You can look at what they did in the recent past (last year). You know what they are doing right now (so far this year and lately). But damn it is hard to figure out what some of these guys are going to do going forward!
not Buster Posey though. Him, you know.
metsfan4decades
5/27/2011-10:01am at 10:01 am (UTC -4)
We’ve been watching a steady decline since end of 2006.
2007 and 2008 we were in competition but ended poorly.
2009 was a disaster.
2010 wasn’t quite the disaster but only b/c we didn’t have as many injuries.
2011 started off poorly, tons of injuries so far, and looks to be ending poorly as well.
We’ve had 3 different managers since ’06 and damn near a turn over of most players.
So in regards to ‘making your own luck’ which I largely agree with, what exactly has been the problem?
It’s probably largely hindsight now but I’m going with the overall concept of the organization from Wilpon to Omar and on down.
We’re seeing not a lot of depth, borderline replacement level players, poor fundamentals from some, which for those who came up through the Mets system, is a result of that system.
Exit Omar, enter Sandy. He then turned around and replaced several key players up and down the system. Only time will tell if that will get this franchise back on the right track. Problem is just that, it’s going to take time. How much is anyone’s guess. Since the problem wasn’t created overnight, it’s not going to be fixed overnight.
TRS86
5/27/2011-10:05am at 10:05 am (UTC -4)
Agreed. It was a failed plan or lack of a plan that has tanked the entire organization and placed it years behind.
2006 was actually the worst thing that could have happen to the Mets and I have said it all along. Omar never intended on the Mets being dominant in 2006. It took many of our players having career years for us to be that dominant. After that the thought of building around Wright, Reyes, pitching, defense and speed went right out the window and win now at all cost became the mantra. And thus…
metsfan4decades
5/27/2011-12:56pm at 12:56 pm (UTC -4)
Agree with you about 2006 and Omar. Almost like he didn’t realize the reason the Mets were so dominant that year had to do with all the stars aligning, more so then the team was just that great.
Rest of the NL being awful had a lot to do with it as well.
TRS86
5/27/2011-1:11pm at 1:11 pm (UTC -4)
You look at those offensive numbers that year. Career years from Wright, Reyes, Beltran, rebound from Delgado, Loduca hitting .300, Valentin looking like an MLB player. Our #7 hitter had like 25 HR. Those players got confident and played mostly over their heads.
metsfan4decades
5/27/2011-1:27pm at 1:27 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, that’s more or less what I meant by ‘all the stars aligning’. It’s not that they build a great team for years to come, it’s more that it all came together for many for just that one year.
Omar, on the other hand, probably saw it as a great team that only needed minor tweaking or some SP.
kingman 26
5/27/2011-10:16am at 10:16 am (UTC -4)
I would argue that the team has clearly gotten worse every year since 2006. 2010 was worse than 2009 despite the record as the team was healthier overall but played worse. They probably will win over the 70 wins in 2009 this year, but I think the team is going to hit a seriously bad run with the upcoming schedule. And I hate to say it, but I have been right about this team since last August.
I honestly think right now the beginning of the end was firing Randolph. There, I said it.
Yes, the Wilpon draft strategy and the top-heavy Omar strategy of going after huge name after huge name while never replacing the 2006 team’s gamers (Floyd, LoDuca, Valentin, Chavez, Bradford, Oliver) most definitely were 2 prongs of the multi-headed disaster, I truly think Manuel was the one who converted the Willie team into a bunch of lazy, out of shape, slacking, card-playing during warmups, country-club, no-accountability bunch.
Baseball isn’t football or basketball, and sure, as 2007 and 2008 proved, every game counts, but in a 162-game marathon season, skills of managers like Gil and Davey who were master motivators and handlers of men are just more important than the excessive bunting and handedness issues we often obsess over.
Jerry just took a wobbling team, unsure of itself after 2007, without the clubhouse leadership of 2006′s roster, and turned it into a weak, lazy, unaccountable bunch.
And Omar’s work in leaving the farm system bare combined with the current finances leave us where we are.
Which is hoping that Collins’ apparent instilling of a work ethic is taking hold and that Alderson can somehow bring in some talent for 2012.
TRS86
5/27/2011-10:34am at 10:34 am (UTC -4)
While Jerry is some to blame I am sure, I think he tried to be the opposite of Willie and that showed some results in his half season. However, ultimately it is on Omar and the Wilpons for breaking away from their plan and getting greedy. As for letting those vets go? I think that is a fine line. When do you stop riding those types? Cliff was of no use at that time, he could barely walk. Jose Valentin? Lo Duca, maybe they knew he was on roids. Oliver, another classic case of well what the hell do you do now? The guy had never been any good at all. After one year of success he was primed for a big pay day. Do you give it to him thinking that he might have had fluke season?
saltygary
5/27/2011-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
Those vets along with Easily and Endy (I know TRS I know) had their times and most couldn’t really contribute anymore so it was fine that they left. The problem was their presence was never replaced. instead they spent large sums on a couple players and crippled their ability to get some decent bullpen arms and strong banckup/utility types. Role players are the mortar that hold the foundation together.
TRS86
5/27/2011-11:01am at 11:01 am (UTC -4)
Yup, that is very true. The Mets thought they were always one player away and invested all that money into one more star when what they needed was 3 more role players instead.
TRS86
5/27/2011-11:01am at 11:01 am (UTC -4)
In other words not going the extra mile by adding more depth was never because the Wilpons were cheap, hell if they were cheap we would not have had guys like Bay. It was always about being short-sighted.
kingman 26
5/27/2011-11:22am at 11:22 am (UTC -4)
Yes, absolutely true, BUT combined with the draft strategy AND the idiot Bernazard running the minors, there were masses of termites tearing into the foundation while Omar was introducing Wagner and Johan and KRod and Bay at glitzy press conferences.
TRS86
5/27/2011-11:50am at 11:50 am (UTC -4)
No argument there.
metsfan4decades
5/27/2011-12:59pm at 12:59 pm (UTC -4)
Again, agreed. BP was god-awful in 2008 and the final straw was losing Wagner. So Omar goes out and spends money on not one but 2 closers? And we all know how that turned out with Putz.
TRS86
5/27/2011-1:12pm at 1:12 pm (UTC -4)
Yup, in theory good idea. In practice bad idea.
saltygary
5/27/2011-10:58am at 10:58 am (UTC -4)
And Bradford wanted a crap load of money and got it with Baltimore I believe.
kingman 26
5/27/2011-11:20am at 11:20 am (UTC -4)
Damn, two important phone calls; damn distracting growing business!!
Again, all fine points.
And as for Oliver, when I lived in Seattle I saw him start for the Rangers and he made Figgy look like Halladay. Seriously. In 2000, he started 21 games and his ERA was 7.42!!! 7.42!!!!!!! He threw BP during games.
But yes, while it is easy in retrospect to judge the loss of all of those guys, I have to think that at the time there must have been some inkling of how much they meant in the clubhouse. Everyone talked about Valentin’s influence, and some of the guys clearly loved and looked up to Floyd and LoDuca–I think they helped Wright become what he is. Also, letting Bradford go was wrong at the time…he WAS clutch.
Surely letting some go was reasonable, but letting that whole contingent go just had to be recognized as letting most of the gamer, leader-types go.
Who was left? Delgado?
Yeah, it did not seem at the time that the leadership vacuum would become so pronounced, and this is not the first time I have mentioned this, but the more that time goes by, the more clear it becomes that the loss of that group of guys left the team somewhat shaky and rudderless, and Willie’s replacement being Jerry let the bottom fall out of the leadership barrel.
TRS86
5/27/2011-11:25am at 11:25 am (UTC -4)
But here is the problem you are faced with. What happens when you have a team full of Cora’s and no one that can actually perform?
Keeping Valentin, Floyd, Loduca while they may have provided leadership, they provided little to no talent at that point.
kingman 26
5/27/2011-11:31am at 11:31 am (UTC -4)
Well, I did not mention Cora once! Joey maybe, he’d be a fine manager.
Again, true, and we are talking hindsight. But consider the catchers we have had since LoDuca.
Floyd could have been a coach; maybe SHOULD have been asked to be one.
And Bradford WAS an example of a bad financial choice. For a team like this year’s Mets? Bradford is a luxury not to be considered; but for 2007 and 2008? His presence those years EASILY could have meant 1-2 more playoff appearances. Absolutely and positively.
Bradford is the mini-Mariano of postseason set up men—11 postseason series, 24 games—ONE RUN ALLOWED!
An argument can be made that not signing Bradford cost us the playoffs in 2007 and 2008. A damn frigin good argument.
Would LOVE to see you dispute this!!
TRS86
5/27/2011-11:37am at 11:37 am (UTC -4)
Which one? Bradford, let me look at that one in a minute. I am sure I can find a case.
Floyd was not ready to coach, he had a starting gig in Chicago and a chance to earn 7.5M. You gonna pay him that? LoDuca was completely finished. He barely made it another 67 games the next year and was terrible in 2007. Also you have to remember that was when this steroid stuff was blowing up everywhere and it’s no secret that Loduca was involved.
TRS86
5/27/2011-11:49am at 11:49 am (UTC -4)
OK of course Bradford was unable to finish his contract. However, he was healthy in 2007 and 2008 when we would have needed him. What I can’t remember and can’t find articles on is if he was a ranked FA and if they offered him arbitration.
Mostly what I remember is that Omar completely misjudged the market. Bradford was offered what looked like a ridiculous deal for a ROOGY. 3/10M+ At that time middle relievers just did not get those types of deals. However, Omar then was left with no one and panicked by signing Showenstinky much later in the 0ff-season.
TRS86
5/27/2011-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
Remember Valentin was there in 2007 and was not very good, he never played another MLB game after that season. I believe he got injured and never recovered.
Loduca was here during the 2007 collapse as well producing a line of: 268 .295 .387 .682 in the 2nd half. Not only that he could not fight off injuries and had tanked all year in his normal “clutch” situations going .190 .254 .241 .495 with RISP 2/O. His career lasted another 67 games after 2007.
Floyd? 97 games in 2006 and at that point was more of an injury risk than Alou. He was given a 3M deal with 4.5M more in incentives. Not sure he wanted to be a bench player at that time for sure so what do you do with him?
kingman 26
5/27/2011-11:25am at 11:25 am (UTC -4)
TRS86 5 minutes ago
What happen to Gee? Knocking him off too?
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OMG what the hell was Baron’s line about Gee supposed to mean? Gee, right now, could be considered out number one!
TRS86
5/27/2011-11:35am at 11:35 am (UTC -4)
I am guessing that he is a poor hitter in a team full of juggernauts? LOL. I mean the thing that gets me is that Cerrone just made a post making fun of a Sherman comment, saying he did not understand it. I found that one ironic.
kingman 26
5/27/2011-12:08pm at 12:08 pm (UTC -4)
Geez, sorry to keep stepping out on another fine discussion; my bro and sis-in-law went out of town, so I am manning the command post alone and it is surprisingly busy for a holiday weekend Friday….
I really am hanging my hat on Bradford.
His entire career he was good, and in the postseason he is ridiculous; please check the stats if you have not. I was even surprised when I took another look.
Yes, couldn’t pay Floyd or Oliver what they got, they DID bring LoDuca, Valentin and Endy back, but letting Bradford go was rightly pilloried at the time.
Like most really good Met teams, and many good teams period, the 2006 team had a really solid and deep bullpen. Looking back on it now, Wagner, Heilman, Feliciano, Sanchez, Bradford, and Oliver was a frigin great pen. Maybe Wagner and Heilman weren’t Wetteland and Mariano in 1996, but still, that 1-6 was awesome.
Lefties, righties, hard throwers and sidearmers, a fine long man. An incredibly well-conceived bullpen.
Bradford seriously was very possibly the very worst decision of the Omar era, in terms of letting guys get away.
TRS86
5/27/2011-12:29pm at 12:29 pm (UTC -4)
Eh, if you are using hindsight as a guide then Bell would be for sure.
kingman 26
5/27/2011-12:33pm at 12:33 pm (UTC -4)
Don’t need a shred of hindsight on Bradford.
TRS86
5/27/2011-1:09pm at 1:09 pm (UTC -4)
Sure you do, there was a pretty good case to be made at the time that middle relievers don’t get 3 year contracts for 10M. Really that was unheard of at the time. Omar’s problem was that to make up for it he went out and signed Show.
Also, calling him a setup man is not exactly true either. He was a ROOGY. He was very bad to abysmal vs LH: .315 .404 .451 .856.
At that time, 10M for a ROOGY only was a hefty contract.
kingman 26
5/27/2011-1:22pm at 1:22 pm (UTC -4)
That pen had Wagner and Feliciano returning. Didn’t need him to pitch to too many lefties.
Sorry pal, but there’s a great argument to be made that with Bradford we make the playoffs in 2007 AND 2008.
In 2008? Might his presence have allowed ONE less game to be saved?
kingman 26
5/27/2011-1:33pm at 1:33 pm (UTC -4)
One less save to be blown, of course…..even THINKING about that bullpen makes me crazy.
metsfan4decades
5/27/2011-1:15pm at 1:15 pm (UTC -4)
The more removed from 2006 we get, the easier it is for me to see who/what went wrong where. But you know, I’m just a fan. It’s not my area of expertise and I’m not getting the big bucks to ‘foresee’, if you will, how to not only construct a contending team but a consistent one.
It’s clear the Wilpons have no baseball sense b/c if they did, they wouldn’t have allowed Omar to spend their money the way he did (to simplify it) and he certainly wouldn’t have been given an extension just mere weeks before the Great Collapse.
The consensus seems to be that Selig had more to do with Alderson being selected than the Wilpons did. I have no love lost for Selig b/c of the whole steroid thing but there’s an article in the New York magazine (5/9/11) issue on Selig and what he’s done for baseball. After reading that, I’m not so sure he’s the fool I thought he was.
And if he does know what’s good for baseball, here’s hoping his hand selection of Alderson is just what this franchise needs. Selig’s motives were probably more of the just making sure the franchise didn’t go under but here’s hoping Alderson & Co. bring a bit more to the table than that.
Here’s the link to the article if anyone is interested:
http://nymag.com/news/sports/games/bud-selig-2011-5/
kingman 26
5/27/2011-1:25pm at 1:25 pm (UTC -4)
Every sports commissioner’s job is to make money for the owners. First and foremost.
The steroid era? As becomes clearer and clearer, baseball brass knew what was going on.
Were they going to stop the game’s recovery in the late 90s from the 1994 strike? No chance in hell.
People who call Selig an idiot are just plain wrong. He made a fortune in his own successful business, brought MLB ball permanently to Milwaukee, and has the game doing very well.
saltygary
5/27/2011-1:54pm at 1:54 pm (UTC -4)
YAY just got my tickets for Mets @ Alanta for the 14th and 15th. Here’s hoping I can make though with my jersey without getting into a LA type scuffle.