Jun 26
I still can’t believe Davey Johnson is back as a manager. I’m currently in the middle of the book The bad guys won and I’m in a little shocked of just how much he let those 86 Mets run wild.
Today’s question regards the former skipper of the New York Mets. Can Davey Johnson still manage? Do you think he’ll have an impact on the Nats?
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32 comments
stickguy
6/26/2011-9:36am at 9:36 am (UTC -4)
sure he can. he did it for team USA a few years ago.
Now, will the players pay any attention to him? Who knows, but that goes for any manager, regardless of age.
Seems strange that right now in the NL east, Terry is 2nd youngest and 2nd most tenured (tied with the dude in Atlanta).
saltygary
6/26/2011-9:38am at 9:38 am (UTC -4)
He is a great pick to kick a little old school attitude into the youngin’s. The contract length is also good for both sides. He can walk away and the FO can move into the next stage with a more current manager, or he might regain the “eye of the tiger” and be able to make one final run.
metsfan4decades
6/26/2011-10:05am at 10:05 am (UTC -4)
I read the bad guys won. Although they didn’t go into much detail, they certainly implied Davey just left them all alone during that ’86 season even though he was well aware of their behavior off the field. Heck, Straw and a couple of others had to be benched for some day games after night games due to hangovers. No way he didn’t know.
Sure, don’t see why he can’t still manage. As to what impact he’ll have is anyone’s guess. The success or failure is mostly determined by talent on the team and the manager’s ability to ‘click’ with the particular group of guys he’s managing at any given time.
For those of use who followed the team in the mid 80s and especially that ’86 team, it’s probably going to be a bit strange at first seeing Davey as skipper of the Nats.
saltygary
6/26/2011-10:16am at 10:16 am (UTC -4)
Right On target “The success or failure is mostly determined by talent on the team and the manager’s ability to ‘click’ with the particular group of guys he’s managing at any given time.”
After you read that book gonzo it was clear there was no controlling that team, but as out of control that they were they policed themselves just fine. They partied hard and it forced them to work harder than anyone. They had this mindset that if they were going to stay up all night doing blow that they better tear the next game wide open.
Davey knew what to do then. Now he is still able to evaluate (based on his prior position) but can he still transform himself to what the team needs? We will see, but I think he will do fine.
Prismo
6/26/2011-10:10am at 10:10 am (UTC -4)
What can he do?
It’s amazing that they’re even around .500, I can’t see them doing much better than that.
kingman 26
6/26/2011-10:29am at 10:29 am (UTC -4)
What can he do?
Will’s and Prismo’s questions answer themselves with a simple look at his amazing managing record.
The best era in Met history, and the team stunk immediately before he took over and very soon again after he was canned. Which he never should have been.
The Orioles? Two seasons there—the ONLY two postseason appearances the team has had since winning it all in 1983.
The Reds? Two of the three best records in the last 30 years were the two full years he was there; one NLCS appearance.
The Dodgers? His least successful stop, 2 years right at .500.
Sure I am biased, but this guy is one of the very best and most underappreciated managers of the last 30 years.
12 full years in 4 places–5 1st places, 6 2nds, and 1 3rd. 5 postseasons and one title.
Things definitely just got tougher for the Mets.
stickguy
6/26/2011-10:40am at 10:40 am (UTC -4)
interesting state from the Fox broadcast. Davey is something like the 6th manager to win a WS, and be still managing 25 years later.
and the others wee all from the teens/20s (ending n the 50s). Guys like Connie Mack.
cold be interesting!
and I hope I remember the stat correctly, and it wasn’t that they won another WS, since Davey ain’t doing that anytime soon with the nats!
Kirk_C
6/26/2011-10:44am at 10:44 am (UTC -4)
I’m not sure I really like this hire for the Nats. That’s not to say that I thought Riggleman was the right guy, but how long is Davey really willing to manage? The Nationals have an incredible young core of players both in the majors and on their way to the majors. I think they should have chosen a guy who could grow with that team. IMO, the Nats are going to be challenging for a division title inside of three years.
stickguy
6/26/2011-10:49am at 10:49 am (UTC -4)
hard to find though that type of guy mid season. Davey was already on the payroll, and could easily be moved back into a consulting role.
so, think of him as a glorified interim manager, and potential mentor/guru for someone else they bring in to get groomed to take over (maybe as a bench coach?)
metsfan4decades
6/26/2011-11:44am at 11:44 am (UTC -4)
I read though that Davey was giving a managerial contract that runs through 2013. That tells me they kind of think of him long term. Not that it’s a guarantee either b/c as you said, they could easily move him if they want.
kingman 26
6/26/2011-10:53am at 10:53 am (UTC -4)
Well, Riggleman has been a fill-in, retread mediocrity as a manager. Johnson has been a consistent winner.
And again, Johnson did not always step in to winning situations, as his Met and Oriole records vividly show.
The Nats could be challenging for a postseason spot next year, if everyone stays healthy and Strasburg (and Harper?) contribute in 2012.
Kirk_C
6/26/2011-11:04am at 11:04 am (UTC -4)
I’d be shocked to see Harper early in ’12. Despite his success so far his contact rate is poor and I think the Nats want to see him improve that. If he’s having a hard time with breaking pitches in A ball, exposing him to MLB breaking stuff too early could hurt his progress.
kingman 26
6/26/2011-11:19am at 11:19 am (UTC -4)
I don’t disagree. I am just thinking maybe mid-2012 if they are in contention and he succeeds at AA and/or AAA.
Considering he is literally 18 years old, wouldn’t you have to say his stats are pretty darn good?
hazmet
6/26/2011-11:22am at 11:22 am (UTC -4)
And they most likely wouldn’t want to start the clock on his major league service time. I agree that we won’t seen him till later in 12 at the earliest.
hazmet
6/26/2011-11:13am at 11:13 am (UTC -4)
Can Davey Johnson still manage? Of course he can. The question almost implies that somehow he forgot something over the past 3 decades or that the myriad of stats, and yes I’m going to go there, sabermetrics, have made managing the game more complicated today. However, to me all that the availability of this data has done has enabled profiling the complexities of a seemingly simple game. And if Sandy and his crew are heralded as the leading proponents of sabermetrics from the management side well then Davey is the Godfather of sabermetrics in my book. Before it was fashionable Davey was the guy running stats through computers in the back rooms of the organization.
That being said, I can’t stand Davey Johnson. Why, for the reasons eluded to above. He let the team run amuck, had zero control off the field and while the teams record was pheonmenal during that stretch he provided no leadership to Straw, Doc, Lenny all the young guys who as we all know blew up in their personal lifes. Now it can be said that what do you want the guy to do these are grown men, but at the time, no, they were farm fresh so to speak and needed guidance in more than just baseball. Unfortunately, for that he turned them over to Keith and the players and the die was cast. The teams of the 80′s won inspite of Davey based on pitching and the enormous talent on the team that in fairness he helped shaped in the minors. But, if not for that talent pulling out a major miracle in game 6, while Davey was sucking down his Rolaids, his tenure would be viewed as one of the all time fails with the talent those teams had. In my book he became a better manager after the Mets from learning the errors of his ways. The irony, his only title with the Mets with his at arms length approach.
njstuckintx
6/26/2011-11:21am at 11:21 am (UTC -4)
So, basis this, you would consider Valentine superior to Johnson.
kingman 26
6/26/2011-11:25am at 11:25 am (UTC -4)
Wow, for maybe the first time ever, I completely disagree with you.
Let’s remember—Darryl, Doc and Dykstra’s lives collapsed AFTER Davey—Straw played one more full year after being away from Davey.
Perhaps Davey DID help these guys keep it together longer than they might have otherwise. And the team tanked for years after he was gone. With the exception of the brief 2006 success, Met history has been a tale of managers to a large extent.
Gil, Davey, and Bobby V and a lot of garbage managers and garbage teams.
Yes, Davey’s teams were not the best collections of mature and responsible men, but maybe they won because of Davey and not in spite of him…
hazmet
6/26/2011-11:47am at 11:47 am (UTC -4)
lol, yeah I know this is like the only area we disagree on. That being said, I totally get Davey knows what he’s doing but he just was never my cup of tea. He’s one of the contradictions in my Met fandom. I appreciate his ability and that he got one of the 2 titles we have under our belt but I just felt there was so much more left on the table. But that goes with the game.
As for the kids that needed guidance I still would state that their lives were falling apart in his midst and he did nothing to stop it. I’ve posted in the past about how Lenny crashed his Mercedes Benz into one of my brother’s friends cars in Northport during the mid 80′s and Lenny, totally wasted, stumbled out of the car whipped out a card and said “call this number they’ll take care of everything just don’t call the cops as this is like my third accident in the past year and a half…” These young men were falling apart and he stood by and watched. The best he and the management could come up with is “it must be Kevin Mitchell’s bad influence” and they shipped him out to San Diego for milktoast Kevin McReynolds. Weak, and Davey was there.
njstuckintx
6/26/2011-11:53am at 11:53 am (UTC -4)
Everyone blasts the Seaver and Ryan trades, as well as the Kazmir trades, but the Mitchell for McReynolds trade is probably top 3 of the ones that irk the crap out of me. I wasn’t really around for the Seaver/Ryan/Kingman trades and I have the luxury of seeing Kazmir being totally washed up already, but I loved Mitchell in 86. and when he went away, I could not comprehend why.
Trading Jeffries ticked me off too. I know his expectations were something no one could live up to and his ‘entitlement’ aspect was ridiculous, but that dude could hit the snot out of the ball.
metsfan4decades
6/26/2011-11:56am at 11:56 am (UTC -4)
Holy crap, haz…that’s some story about Dykstra and your brother’s friend’s car. Not surprising though. There was a reason that ’86 team was one labeled by everyone other than Met fans as ‘the team you loved to hate’.
And damn I loved that team, at that time, from Davey on down. I think you needed all those pieces to pull off what they pulled off. While I had no problem letting the WS MVP Knight go, trading Mitchell was just flat out reactionary. Dumb even.
njstuckintx
6/26/2011-11:57am at 11:57 am (UTC -4)
I’m surprised Mitchell didn’t come back and start slashing tires and throats and such.
metsfan4decades
6/26/2011-12:05pm at 12:05 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, he certainly had a temper to go along with talent. Despite that MVP after he left the Mets, his temper and attitude probably did make his career less than it could have been.
kingman 26
6/26/2011-12:12pm at 12:12 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, Haz, your side of this debate definitely has a hell of a lot of merit.
metsfan4decades
6/26/2011-11:50am at 11:50 am (UTC -4)
The team tanking after Davey left though has more to do with the team and farm itself, then who was manager.
Truthfully, I’m surprised they kept Davey after ’86 since they seemed so hell bent on dismantling arguably the greatest Met team of all time. It’s a widely known fact the FO didn’t like half those guys, they weren’t ‘gentlemen’ in their eyes, they were trouble. If they didn’t owe Johnson money, I’ll bet he would have been gone with Knight, Mitchell and the rest.
stickguy
6/26/2011-12:07pm at 12:07 pm (UTC -4)
one flip side though to the davey era
While yes, 1986 was great, weren’t they also considered a disappointment from 87-90 or so (in that they should have won more games)? And doesn’t davey have to take a hit for some of that?
kingman 26
6/26/2011-12:19pm at 12:19 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, but remember, no WC back then (would have made the playoffs every year from 84–88.)
84–2nd place, but one of the great years ever for the team.
85–Cards were too tough.
86–
87–Injuries, and that damn McDowell pitch to Pendleton!
88–Team of destiny and MF4D’s BFF Hershiser.
89–The decline had begun and the Samuel trade cemented it.
I will always feel that the 1987 McDowell pitch to Pendleton was the single worst moment of that era. They had fought back from 10 games down and were right there ready to take over. You could feel the air deflate out of the comeback balloon with that pitch. The Cards were just too good, and they knew that losing that game–a two game swing on basically one pitch–would be too much to overcome.
The Giants and the Twins in the postseason? Forget 88, they should have won it in 87.
gategem
6/26/2011-8:06pm at 8:06 pm (UTC -4)
Jim Riggleman’s performance as the Nationals Manager this year was beyond reproach and possible would have elevated him to a Manager of the Year candidate. Certainly, even if he was not renewed by the Nationals, his performance would have made him a highly desired hire by another team. But by quitting in mid-season as he has done will definitely diminish his chances of another team bringing him on-board as their Manager. He was under contract and should have fulfilled his obligations.
Johnson is intelligent and has always had a fine grasp of the finer points of the game. He is the opposite of Terry in that he does not employ a “balls to the walls” approach for every game but he is keenly aware of the necessary approach to win. His tenure with the Nationals should be successful.
kingman 26
6/26/2011-8:12pm at 8:12 pm (UTC -4)
Check out Riggleman’s MLB managerial career.
He’s nothing.
Davey’s been a winner again and again.
The Nats got really lucky here.
gategem
6/26/2011-8:34pm at 8:34 pm (UTC -4)
That’s why I specifically pointed out “this year.” It’s very possible that in the past he found himself in charge of weak teams and its also possible that he has learned from his mistakes. But he had the Nationals overachieving this year and based upon the games I have watched they played smart baseball.
Remember Casey Stengel would have been considered a pitiful Manager when not with the Yankees and a genius while with the Yankees using your evaluation criteria.
kingman 26
6/26/2011-8:58pm at 8:58 pm (UTC -4)
Well Gategem, I have always thought that Stengel was a buffoon and a joke who won 5 titles managing one of the greatest collections of talent in sports history.
You sir told me that he did actually do a good job of managing personalities and handling pitchers, and as I was born in 1966, your evidence is among the very few shreds of evidence I have for Casey being anything other than a buffoon before and after his Yankee days!
But Johnson won just about everywhere.
Casey was horrible everywhere when he did not have Berra, Ford, Mantle, etc.
gategem
6/27/2011-1:25pm at 1:25 pm (UTC -4)
I concur with your evaluation of Johnson. However, in Stengel’s case you totally under estimated his managerial proficiency. The Yankees owners, Dan Topping and Del Webb, were two of the shrewdest owners in the game. They were somewhat lacking in compassion and would rid themselves of players, managers and front office personnel a year too early rather than a year too late. However, they hired the finest GM’s and Managers. Stengel actually trained to become a dentist but he had problems due to the lack of left-handed instruments. If you research those Yankees teams he managed you would notice that they were not composed of stars at every position. Stengel was not a push button manager. Yes they had Mantle, Rizzuto and Berra but have you heard of Gil McDougald, Andy Carey and Gene Woodling? Jerry Coleman, Billy Martin and Hank Bauer were not super-stars. What he had were some fine pitchers in Whitey Ford, Ed Lopat, Vic Raschi and Allie Reynolds but the Brooklyn Dodgers of that time period actually had a better starting eight and a comparable pitching staff. As a Dodgers fan of that era it used to drive me to no small distraction the way Stengel would successfully platoon position players and manipulate his pitching staff for the best possible matchups. Forget his personae, he was no buffoon.
kingman 26
6/27/2011-1:48pm at 1:48 pm (UTC -4)
Again, I really appreciate this perspective.
Yes, I am very much an amateur baseball historian and I do know of all of those players–in fact Joe Collins I believe had a restaurant up here in Saratoga after he retired.
You do make fine points, and I guess I think of Davey and the 1986 Mets in a similar fashion—those teams sure got rid of some guys too early! (Mitchell, Dykstra, McDowell…)