After listening to MLBN Radio this morning and their comparisons of the Braves and Nats I thought during this slow time it would be nice to have a break down of each position in the NL East and rank them based on overall ability, stats, defense, and most importantly MY EYES!!! (Now they can even post this on MMO).
Today we take a look at the Catcher position.
Coming in dead last is not who you would expect.
#1 Brian McCann: Old Man McCann will turn 28 here in a few days. Looking at him and how long he has been one of the Braves leading hitters you would think he is in his mid-30′s. Unfortunately for the Braves at times he plays like it as well. Catching is catching and it takes its toll but make no doubt McCann is still the class of the NL East. 6 straight All-star selections, 5/6 years Silver Slugger award winner, 20+ HR 5/6 years, 70 RBI+ 6/6 years, with a 122 OPS+ over that time. Last year while is games played took a hit he was still a very productive player in a lineup missing offense. Defense is starting to be a problem though. Last year he managed only a weak 22% CS with 104 total bases stolen and 133 attempted.
#2 Wilson Ramos: The 24 year old catcher may be a rising star in the NL. Last year in his first full season in the bigs he managed a 113 OPS+ with 15 HR, 22 2B and 52 RBI in just 435 PA. Over the course of a full season that would look like 20+ HR and 75+ RBI. Of course what remains to be seen is if he can handle the 600+ PA over the rigorous season. Defensively he registered a strong 32% caught stealing percentage but teams did test him a lot attempting 71 steals.
#3 Carlos Ruiz: Carlos continues to mystify projections and put up solid numbers for the Phillies. The 33 year old catcher saw a new life in 2009 after putting up a season of .219 with a .620 OPS and a 63 OPS+ in 2008. Since then he has registered 3 seasons of 105, 127 and 107. Interestingly enough, his home and away splits are relatively even so it is not that he is a product of his home confines either. It’s possible the guy learned how to hit at age 30, his one to one SO/BB ratio with a little pop reminds me a little of Paul Lo Duca. Defensively his CS ratio was a little down last year coming in at only 23%. The Phillies pitchers however do a great job overall of holding runners and limiting base-runners with only 100 steals attempted.
#4 Josh Thole: Bet you thought he would be last huh? Well almost only counts in horseshoes. There is no doubt that currently Josh is a below average catcher. Our high hopes for him were dashed last year when his .723 OPS took a dive to .690 in his first full year. The bright spots are that he still does not strike out much and managed to hit .264 with a .345 OBP, unfortunately that OBP was higher than his SLG %. So currently he is a slow version of Luis Castillo. He has also got a lot of work to do defensively. He had early issues with his game calling as well as a pitiful CS % of 22%. In other words the only thing that saves him from being dead last in the division is just how bad this next guy is.
# Dead Last John Buck: The Marlins might be better of with Joe Buck behind the plate. John has been an awful offensive catcher every year with the exception of one year in Toronto and we have seen what that place can do for your stats. While he will manage some HR with his all or nothing approach (Think of him as Rod Barajas without talent and that is saying something) he has only hit above .250 once in his career and you can guess where that was. Last year was his best in terms of OBP registering a career high .316. He has consistently averaged 3 times more strike outs than walks and in his best season offensively he topped that rate at 16 walks and 111 K’s. Factor in his 17% CS rate and you wonder, what the hell are the Marlins doing with him as their catcher when they are trying to compete for a championship. He had better handle pitchers with The Force like powers or the Marlins will be wishing they had thrown a little of their checks gone wild in that direction.
72 comments
Reese
2/7/2012-10:25am at 10:25 am (UTC -4)
What’s even sadder is that Josh Thole and his potentially .280 bat is a positive All-Star next to Mike Nickeas who has no business being on a AAA roster, let alone a major league one.
TRS86
2/7/2012-10:46am at 10:46 am (UTC -4)
I would agree pending on how many AB’s he gets. I think Thole needs to get 80% of them just to finally find out if he can develop or not.
kingman 26
2/7/2012-10:50am at 10:50 am (UTC -4)
I agree so very much on Nickeas.
While I have generally been a positive guy, Nickeas is exhibit A of the true depth of financial distress this organization is in and how finances are driving everything.
He is a AAA backup.
TRS86
2/7/2012-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
I think it is even more damning that in our farm system he is the best we have and all of our hopes rest on Thole. I was reading on MMO one of the really good articles on catching depth in the system and even the guys that have potential seem to be at least 2-3 years away.
kingman 26
2/7/2012-11:18am at 11:18 am (UTC -4)
Agreed 100%.
Seems like we have a bunch of great hopes pitching-wise, but otherwise, wow–we need Duda, Ike, Murph, and Thole to really produce!
MetsFan4Decades
2/7/2012-10:31am at 10:31 am (UTC -4)
Nice series. Something new to read. Good job.
Yup, you got me. I did expect to see Thole last on this list. I didn’t realize Buck’s numbers were that bad.
And you know Loria would have been the first throwing money at some better type A FA catcher if he was available. I get the impression with Loria is all about making the big splash to fill the seats and less about building a competing team for years to come. Have you looked at that farm system lately?
I still think the Marlins will finish 3rd.
TRS86
2/7/2012-10:43am at 10:43 am (UTC -4)
If I were them I would at least sign Pudge. Pudge at 99 years old would still be better than Buck.
Ceetar
2/7/2012-10:48am at 10:48 am (UTC -4)
Thole struggled last year, it’s true. (Will Ramos struggle his second year? hmm…) He’s actually not that far off of Ruiz to be honest, particularly if you factor in the park differences, a little growth and a little age from Ruiz and Thole could be better than him.
There aren’t a lot of good catchers, and Thole’s not a bad one, so I’m not unhappy he’s the guy.
TRS86
2/7/2012-10:58am at 10:58 am (UTC -4)
You can’t factor in park differences when Ruiz is basically even. Factoring in defense and ability to handle pitchers, Ruiz is light years ahead. Is it possible that by age 30 Thole passes him? Certainly, but if he does not improve by then he will be a back up at best.
Ceetar
2/7/2012-11:18am at 11:18 am (UTC -4)
you’re underrating that .345 OBP for a catcher, particularly since it was a drop from the previous year. He was 18th in OPS in the majors, which is basically middle of the pack and Citi Field obviously suppresses slugging numbers some. (he’s 9th in OBP)
I wouldn’t describe Ruiz as having ‘a little pop’. Thole actually hit the farthest one.
http://www.hittrackeronline.com/detail.php?id=2011_4121&type=hitter
http://www.hittrackeronline.com/detail.php?id=2011_3275&type=hitter
defensive metrics for catcher are basically non-existent.(especially given Dickey) Thole struggled a lot earlier, but he did seem to settle down later on in the season. Don’t give me “light-years” because it’s not true. Of course a seasoned guy like Ruiz is going to be better, but another year of age and experience is only going to lessen the gap. The CS% is basically the same and as you assert, the Phillies pitchers hold runners well. It’s really easy to run on knuckleballers and Pelfrey doesn’t hold guys on.
TRS86
2/7/2012-11:29am at 11:29 am (UTC -4)
Man oh man would the MMO posters have a time with you. You are even more blindly optimistic than I am.
Thole would rank 13/14 NL catchers with more than 300 PA in OPS. If you want to use his only redeeming current quality of OBP then it would still place him 8/14. What does that mean? He has no pop at all, regardless of an isolated incident. He was 14/14 in the NL in SLG% and 27/27 in the MLB.
Come on Ceetar, while he may improve, he statistically may be the 2nd worst catcher in the league. Again if it weren’t for Buck he would be the runaway worst.
Ceetar
2/7/2012-11:38am at 11:38 am (UTC -4)
I went with 100 games I think and he’s 6th. not that 8 in the NL is bad. OBP is more important than slugging, perhaps 3x so. (although I haven’t seen the math on that one, think it’s a moneyball quote) Regardless, OPS is a flawed stat for representing the value of OBP and it favors sluggers. Russel Martin was NOT a better catcher than Josh Thole last year for instance.
Ruiz has no pop either. He hit three more home runs, and 3 traveled 350 feet. that’s not pop. He’s just not that far ahead of Thole, and it’s easy to see Thole being better in 2012.
TRS86
2/7/2012-11:46am at 11:46 am (UTC -4)
Pop is more than HR Ceetar and arguing with you is almost as pointless as the other extreme. OBP is 3x more important than SLG% and is now the only thing that matters in judging a catcher offensively? So basically Thole is as good or better than Gary Carter. Man why is it that I can’t find a nice middle of the road discussion?
Ceetar
2/7/2012-12:02pm at 12:02 pm (UTC -4)
because you refuse to take my debunking of your ‘arguments’ as being anything but stating the exact opposite case, which is not what I’m doing.
I say you’re undervaluing OBP and you take that to mean I think it’s the most important stat ever. It _is_ more important than SLG. I think that 3x number was from Moneyball, i’m not saying that’s what it is. I don’t know where that research was done or where to find it.
Carlos Ruiz had 29 XBH or 9 more than Josh Thole in 22% more PA. (would bring Josh up to 24-25 or so.)
kingman 26
2/7/2012-12:05pm at 12:05 pm (UTC -4)
“Man why is it that I can’t find a nice middle of the road discussion?”
Because you are arguing with Ceetar and the complete loser idiot ignoramuses at MMO?
Just a guess…
I am going to be back here, so you can look forward to nice debates, AND a kindler, gentler Kingman.
My short visits to MMO and Metsblog have once again reinvigorated my extreme high regard for the comment community here.
Although it still is a mystery to me why you go to MMO…Bayonne, Alex, Metsie, and Pomes seriously give the word ignorance a bad name.
TRS86
2/7/2012-12:11pm at 12:11 pm (UTC -4)
I know what you mean with MMO. If this place was more active I wouldn’t sniff it. However, I got nothing better to do
TRS86
2/7/2012-12:13pm at 12:13 pm (UTC -4)
So as I was saying, Gary Carter would not be a HOF according to that logic. I am not undervaluing OBP at all, infact by using OPS+ I am valuing it tremendously. He is just not very good at offense right now, no matter how you look at it. When his only redeeming offensive quality leaves him middle of the pack and the rest place him at the bottom it’s pretty dang clear to see he sucked offensively last year.
kingman 26
2/7/2012-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
I gotcha TRS…I promise I will be here to engage you much more often.
Especially once ST gets going.
And I will be much more active as an author too.
As Frank Costanza once exclaimed, “I’m back baaaaaby!”
Ceetar
2/7/2012-1:36pm at 1:36 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t know what Gary Carter has to do with this, different player.
Or does this tie in to the “Catchers must have power” thing? Mets are a little more traditional these days having gone back to light-hitting CF and SS, but I’m not going to devalue Thole’s OBP for it.
OBP is not a 1:1 relationship with SLG as far as runs scored goes. so generally OPS devalues guys that walk a lot as compared to guys that hit the ball really hard. There are obviously other factors, and you’d like higher than .345, but a guy like Thole getting on base is going to create more runs than a guy like Russell Martin hitting a lot of home runs.
TRS86
2/7/2012-1:54pm at 1:54 pm (UTC -4)
Uh.. guys that hit the ball hard for lots of doubles and extra base hits ARE better than guys who just take walks. You are not going to have a high OPS unless you are good at both. How many .800 OPS guys you know with a bad OBP? How many good hitters do you know with a SLG% less than their OBP?
Look OBP is important, that is why I included it in the stats. However, to say that it is 3x more important than SLG?
Ceetar
2/7/2012-2:04pm at 2:04 pm (UTC -4)
I’ll let DePodesta know you disagree with his 3:1 ratio.
kingman 26
2/7/2012-2:20pm at 2:20 pm (UTC -4)
Is DePodesta some sort of deity? His overall record is decidedly mixed–at best.
Ceetar
2/7/2012-2:27pm at 2:27 pm (UTC -4)
He’s not a deity, he’s a guy that makes a living evaluation players and has done a lot more analysis than any of us.
So yeah, I’d side with him about the value of OBP in relation to SLG.
kingman 26
2/7/2012-3:02pm at 3:02 pm (UTC -4)
Clearly true Ceetar, but DePodesta has a VERY mixed record and reputation, and just about his entire MLB career is based on being hired again and again by Sandy Alderson.
The idea that OBP is 3X more important than SLG is one man’s idea I guess and a very, very questionable one.
I am most definitely not devaluing OBP, but saying it is 3X as important as SLG seems a bit exaggerated to me.
Not sure what the answer is, but still, this is one man’s idea, a very smart man to be sure, but a relatively young man, with a very mixed resume.
Ceetar
2/7/2012-3:06pm at 3:06 pm (UTC -4)
Not question his record (and he’s been hired by more than Sandy, the last two have been by him but those were the only ones) just that he actually did the analysis and dug into the data to try to determine this stuff. And neither of you have refuted it beyond saying it doesn’t sound right.
Where are the RDM saber guys? Maybe I’ll try to dig up this research (or run my own, i’m working on setting up my own database) and write a post.
kingman 26
2/7/2012-3:51pm at 3:51 pm (UTC -4)
Once again correct Ceetar.
If you generate data to support (or refute!) or temper the idea of OBP being 3X as big as SLG, I would be hugely interested.
And again–I am a huge OBP guy; just seems like 3X is a big number, that’s all.
gategem
2/8/2012-12:16am at 12:16 am (UTC -4)
“Man why is it that I can’t find a nice middle of the road discussion?”
“Because you are arguing with Ceetar and the complete loser idiot ignoramuses at MMO?”
LMAO
I spent the day at the parade and it was glorious. I can’t wait until it’s the Mets turn once again. I hope I live long enough to witness it
TRS86
2/7/2012-11:07am at 11:07 am (UTC -4)
Also while Thole may not ultimately be a bad one, you can’t say that there aren’t a lot of good catchers when you had 3 in the NL East alone with OPS+ over 100. Thole was one of only 2 catchers in the league with an OPS under .700.
Ceetar
2/7/2012-11:23am at 11:23 am (UTC -4)
percentage of balls fielded in 2011 that resulted in outs: 98% MLB Average: 92%
Bunts fielded that resulted in outs: 2011 94% MLB average 86%
He led the league in passed balls, but again Halladay and Lee throw strikes, Dickey throws knuckleballs.
Mr North Jersey
2/7/2012-11:54am at 11:54 am (UTC -4)
Thole for surprise player of the year!
kingman 26
2/7/2012-12:07pm at 12:07 pm (UTC -4)
Good surprise or bad surprise??
TRS86
2/7/2012-12:10pm at 12:10 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, he could very well be. I think he still has potential but for now, he is almost the worst in the league.
MetsFan4Decades
2/7/2012-12:25pm at 12:25 pm (UTC -4)
Love his enthusiasm and the fact that he’s just about the only one that didn’t mind catching RA’s knuckleballs. I’d have no problem with him as the back up catcher.
I think it’s a stretch though that he’s going to become a better than average starter. Maybe he’ll surprise us all this year. If work ethic counted for anything he and Murph would be stars of this team.
Mr North Jersey
2/7/2012-12:29pm at 12:29 pm (UTC -4)
“If work ethic counted for anything he and Murph would be stars of this team.”
Well said.
MetsFan4Decades
2/7/2012-12:23pm at 12:23 pm (UTC -4)
‘I know what you mean with MMO. If this place was more active I wouldn’t sniff it. However, I got nothing better to do’
As TRS said…guilty as charged.
I originally started reading over at MMO b/c they really have some great posts they put up. But I somehow got sucked into that Sandy vs. Omar war. I genuinely tried to stay away from it but that Bayonne dude baited me with the ‘females only belong in the kitchen’ crap. I should have known better.
kingman 26
2/7/2012-12:30pm at 12:30 pm (UTC -4)
I honestly mean these comments are compliments to you and TRS.
You are a person of far too high caliber to lower yourself to Bayonne’s level.
Bayonne does not deserve your responses.
Seriously, that guy has a truly horrific combo of attributes—totally ignorant about baseball, totally incapable of arguing, totally sexist, totally closed-minded, and totally trapped in a world of 1950s mediocrity—he’s a 5-tool tool.
NJstuckinTX
2/7/2012-12:33pm at 12:33 pm (UTC -4)
5 tool tool.
you better slap a TM or an R in a circle for that catch phrase. At least a patent pending…
kingman 26
2/7/2012-12:59pm at 12:59 pm (UTC -4)
Thank you sir!
I do like that one…
MetsFan4Decades
2/7/2012-12:39pm at 12:39 pm (UTC -4)
5-tool tool. hahahaha
There’s always a handful in every fan base, right? MMO just happens to be a gravitating place for them all.
You know, last night I looked around over there for their commenting policy and noticed they didn’t have one. So I guess anything goes over there.
If some of them came over here or AA with that brand of logic they’d last about a day.
TRS86
2/7/2012-12:56pm at 12:56 pm (UTC -4)
I thought I read something about their commenting policy the other day? Maybe Joe mentioned it?
MetsFan4Decades
2/7/2012-1:28pm at 1:28 pm (UTC -4)
I know Joe D. mentioned it so I went looking for that commenting policy. I couldn’t find it stated anywhere but maybe I’m just missing it.
kingman 26
2/7/2012-1:02pm at 1:02 pm (UTC -4)
Thank you First Lady!
One day a couple of months ago I was at Metsblog and Bayonne came there and go so pummeled, it was almost sad. Almost.
I definitely do not share the megarespect some have for Joe, as he has also made a total fool of himself at Metsblog in the comment area with some pretty silly comments, but yes, there is some very good stuff posted there as main stories.
But why he/they allow Bayonne/Alex/Metsie/Pomes to dominate that site with the SAME excruciatingly repetitive ignorance every single day is a mystery to me.
Now, I am not big on censorship, as you know, but if you banned just those four, wouldn’t that place be about 1000% better?
TRS86
2/7/2012-1:21pm at 1:21 pm (UTC -4)
It’s all about the clicks baby.
kingman 26
2/7/2012-1:28pm at 1:28 pm (UTC -4)
I guess, but damn, that’s a hell of a sacrifice to make for some clicks!
MetsFan4Decades
2/7/2012-1:34pm at 1:34 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed.
I’m willing to bet if some of the Met fans that liked that site didn’t have to read through the same drivel day after day – that includes the personal insults and name calling – that he’d actually get more traffic. I think some are staying away or not bothering to comment b/c of that nonsense.
kingman 26
2/7/2012-2:07pm at 2:07 pm (UTC -4)
I completely agree.
My tirades against Bayonne yesterday were definitely my last visits there.
It’s ridiculous.
I mean, it is one thing to be aggressive and rude if you at least have knowledge (remember Sylar at the old Metsblog, for example?) but to be so very aggressive, verbose, and obnoxious when you are wrong about just about everything, well, that’s just plain polluting the planet.
I mean, I gave up last night after venting about Bayonne’s supporting signing Mike Jacobs while reaming Sandy as GM.
Bayonne’s knowledge of baseball is really laughable.
MetsFan4Decades
2/7/2012-1:33pm at 1:33 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t read many of the threads over at Metsblog anymore – although I do check in on their stories and pictures they put up.
How far out of the box or mainstream do you have to be to get pummeled over on Metsblog? Wow…..that’s the one place that seems to attract a lot of Bayonne’s type thinking. Numerous posts about ‘Mets Suck’, of ‘Just Sell’ over and over.
I hate to speculate on this as I could be way off base but I think there are 2 reasons that group has been allowed the leeway they’ve gotten over there:
1. If you looked at the group that contributed monetarily, most if not all were included.
2. Their disdain of all things sabermetrics is one opinion I believe they share with Joe D.
kingman 26
2/7/2012-2:11pm at 2:11 pm (UTC -4)
Interesting; I had no idea about the contributions–if that is the case, wow. Understandable, but sad.
As for point 2, as I said, Joe has made some really weak comments at Metsblog, so yeah, I guess that MMO is kind of the home of prehistoric baseball thinking, where Mike Jacobs’ one 30+ HR season outweighs his .299 OBP and complete uselessness overall, where Wright’s one AB when he didn’t get Murph home from 3B outweighs his great performance down the stretch in Aug/Sept 2008, and where BA and HR are still the way to judge offense.
Oh well; I guess those people need a home too.
MetsFan4Decades
2/7/2012-3:12pm at 3:12 pm (UTC -4)
The hate for Wright by a few over there is epic but I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion.
The one at bat = choker is ludicrous, IMO – but to each his own.
It’s the turning a blind eye to even the simplest stats that prove Reyes tanked far more in Sep ’07 and ’08 than Wright did all season that’s just mind boggling.
darknova306
2/7/2012-3:33pm at 3:33 pm (UTC -4)
Don’t forget RBI. I think it’s Bayonne, but I keep seeing someone use RBI as THE quintessential stat for determining a player’s offensive value. Holy damn, that’s just mind boggling.
gategem
2/8/2012-12:29am at 12:29 am (UTC -4)
Metsie stated that he possessed both a Masters Degree and PhD in Engineering and it nearly gave me a heart attack. When I regained my composure I had to (for the sake of my sanity) assume he purchased them via e-bay.
NJstuckinTX
2/7/2012-12:31pm at 12:31 pm (UTC -4)
Talk about a steep curve down from McCann to Buck. Yikes.
I think if Thole would just be serviceable on the D side of the ball I wouldn’t mind his lack on the offensive side. I hope he starts eating his wheaties and starts working out that arm o’ his, because he has not been much of anything for throwing base runners out. And now he has to try and gun down Reyes… Double Yikes.
MetsFan4Decades
2/7/2012-12:40pm at 12:40 pm (UTC -4)
I think that’s one attribute I remember about Nickeas. He’s pretty good at throwing runners out trying to steal, right?
TRS86
2/7/2012-12:57pm at 12:57 pm (UTC -4)
Which Reyes? The one that was quick to run and run early? The one that waited until the count was almost full? The one that said I am about to get paid so I am not stealing a damn thing?
NJstuckinTX
2/7/2012-1:24pm at 1:24 pm (UTC -4)
I’ll go with the one that has no wind resistance with he shorter locks and the one looking to impress the NEW home crowd.
TRS86
2/7/2012-1:33pm at 1:33 pm (UTC -4)
So the one whose hamstring will violently shred and cease to exist?
MetsFan4Decades
2/7/2012-1:36pm at 1:36 pm (UTC -4)
Ouch.
It’s going to be interesting to see how Reyes’ hamstrings hold up this year. Seemed to me that as soon as he felt a twinge in that area, he would start holding up on the base paths. He was just that scared to death about winding up on the DL, I guess.
kingman 26
2/7/2012-2:15pm at 2:15 pm (UTC -4)
I think Thole’s offense was decent; he has zero power, but if he hits .276 with a .350 OBP that’s really fine for a catcher.
But his terrible defense must improve somewhat.
MetsFan4Decades
2/7/2012-12:48pm at 12:48 pm (UTC -4)
OT:
This one’s for you RustyJr:
http://baseballhalloffame.ca/news/feature/ball-hall-to-ensrine-staub-melvin-cormier-and-team-canada/
Rusty Staub to be inducted into the Canadian Baseball HOF as the original face of the franchise for the Montreal Expos.
Jessep
2/10/2012-10:49am at 10:49 am (UTC -4)
I still haven’t heard much credit to Thole given that makes him better than a 2010 All-Star heading into Opening Day. You did a nice job here but here is what I am curious about…
trs: You mentioned on MMO that you feel Buck’s offensive performance in 2010 should be essentially voided because he played in Toronto.
Yet, I responded and showed you that Buck’s road OPS was far better on the road than in Toronto.
I’m all for the idea that Thole CAN be better than Buck, but I’m not sold that heading into Opening Day that he IS better.
Buck had a terrible year in 2011, I note that but Thole has never sniffed an all-star ballot and Buck is just 1 year removed from an All-Star appearance… so how can Thole be better?
2010 John Buck: 118 G, 115 Hits, 25 doubles, 20 HR, 66 RBI, .281/.314/.489/.802, OPS+ 114 threw out 28% of runners.
Home: .265/.302/.454/.756
Road: .295/.323/.518/.841
In Thole’s 2011 campaign when he played 4 fewer games than Buck in 2010:
114 G, 91 H, 17 doubles, 3 HR, 40 RBI, .268/.345/.344/.690 OPS+ 94 threw out 21% of runners
2011 Home: .283/.331/.367/.698
2011 Road: .253/.358/.322/.680
Now I am not saying Thole cannot and should not be better than Buck. Frankly that’s such a low bar to set… but to say on this day he is better when he hasn’t sniffed a 2010 year like Buck did is not fair or accurate. You can’t even use Thole’s home park to his benefit since he stunk on the road.
TRS86
2/10/2012-11:00am at 11:00 am (UTC -4)
Like I said over at MMO, when you look at 2010 in terms of Buck’s career stats on offense and defense, what stands out? It’s like the Sesame Street song… One of these pictures isn’t the same, one of these ….
Jessep
2/10/2012-11:10am at 11:10 am (UTC -4)
I get that he had a career year. I really do. And I’m not suggesting buck is anything special.
However, he has that career year. He has that all-star appearance. Thole has nothing.
Buck’s 2006, 2007, 2010 are better than Thole’s 1 year as a starter. 2009 he only played in 59 games, and in 2008
In 2008, Buck’s OPS was .669 and last year .683 to Thole’s amazing 2011 OPS of .690.
It’s not like Thole has done so much to separate himself from Buck that Buck’s 06, 07, and all-star 10 campaign should be negated.
Do I think after 2012 Thole can be 4th. Yes. But if you’re asking me (as it appears you are) that who is better on this day, Buck is. He has history on his side, Thole has yet to prove he’s even far better than Buck during Buck’s worst years
TRS86
2/10/2012-11:22am at 11:22 am (UTC -4)
Like I said, based on last season I see Thole as having a better season than Buck in 2012 and based on numbers Buck was the worst catcher in the NL last year. So while I get what your saying, I think there is sufficient reason to believe that Thole was better last year and will be better this year.
Joe D.
2/10/2012-1:49pm at 1:49 pm (UTC -4)
You know I’m a little disappointed at some of the comments here that are directed at me personally or about my site.
Mostly because I always considered myself a member of TRDM community. When this site first launched I linked to this site 3-4 times per week, so much so that other sites started emailing me and asking me how come I never promoted any other sites.
I befriended Mr. North Jersey, Prismo and Rusty. I still follow them on Twitter, read all of their posts, and even comment especially on Ed’s posts. I also like conversing on Twitter with them and Mr. North Jersey has helped me out a bunch of times personally.
That’s why it hurts to read such comments and especially the insults toward me because I didn’t insult anyone here. Isn’t the insults why you detest Bayonne so much?
Anyway, I don’t where this rumor that I am anti-saber came from. The last six staff writers I’ve brought on including Jim, Xtreem, Craig, Nick, Matt, Drew and two new ones that start this week, my prerequisite was that they had to be very knowledgeable about advanced metrics and I wanted proof in the way of writing samples.
I have never been anti-saber and in fact have gone out of my way to educate myself so that I can refer to advanced stats as often as possible if I am doing an analysis piece.
On MMO the writers never hang around in the threads knocking other sites. I can’t control what the readers do, but I ensure our writers take the high road in the threads.
I’m just very disappointed that a few people had to email me links to show me the MMO bashing that goes on here, and if it was the readers I wouldn’t even care. But it’s some of the writers and that saddens me.
Anyway, I just wanted to clear up the fact that I am not anti-saber, I’m not engrossed with hits and in fact turn down every stupid interview request I get because I don’t blog about the Mets for self promotion. It’s a labor of love and keeps me busy in between my frequent hospital stays at the VA.
Carry on, I said my piece.
TRS86
2/10/2012-2:45pm at 2:45 pm (UTC -4)
Joe I don’t think most of what has been said here is a representation of how our “blog” feels about you or your site anymore than what is said about us in the heat of the moment by some of your posters. I for one have not always agreed with you but have been respectful of your work and your opinions even going as far as saying you run the best blog even on your blog.
However, as for some of your commenters, they are fair game as are mine. Again, you do a great job with your blog, I do think at times some of the authors try to post titles in search of clicks, we have had that here before as well. I also think that the reason you allow such chaos on your site in terms of the disrespect from posters is that it’s good for business. My only caution is that it is only good for business in the short term.
Anyway, got no hard feelings here and as a co-owner of TRDM I hope we can continue to work together.
SaltyGary
2/10/2012-5:17pm at 5:17 pm (UTC -4)
IDK if anyone said anything directed towards you, I believe it’s about the “Commentors”. What ever I said here I’ve posted there as well. I know I’ve stated that the blog has turned into the Maury Povich of blogs (and have said it over there), and that is a characterization of the venom that’s in the comments and not of all the hard work you are putting into the site.
A couple weeks ago I put out a statement on MMO talking how a after the MEtsBlog comment shutdown bunch of us were banned. Cerrone came here and did a chat session and explained that the comment section was taking a life of its own, reflected negatively against the site, and changed what the whole site is about. I’ve actually been connected to the MMO site for many years but only have commented recently because the TRDM guys are. I personally feel that you are experiencing the same thing Cerrone did. You have great contributors and articles but the comment section is taking away from that. Have I been part of the problem, sure, but I have a hard time backing down from someone that has no desire to know what my stances are and attacks me personality just because I don’t yell and scream like a five year old against a GM. My personality is to expose the insanity of it.
So if you feel I have said anything to offend you personally my apologies. You have put a hell of a lot of effort into a site where the inmates are taking control. All my angst is directed to the downward spiral I have found myself in and not being adult enough to just ignore my way out.
Joe D.
2/11/2012-12:03pm at 12:03 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks for responding. I have a better understanding of what is going on now and your frustration with the threads. I am aware of it and have tried to speak individually with those who contribute the most to the problem in the last couple of weeks. At least three of them have made an effort not to throw more gas into the situation. Three others did not seem to get my message and unfortunately for them I will have to do what Cerrone did and permanently ban them rather than the usual one week suspensions I dole out. Thanks to the Mets we have some big things happening for the site this Spring, and I’m not going to let the comment threads detract from that. Anyway thanks for the feedback, and there’s no hard feelings on my part.
trs86
2/12/2012-4:15pm at 4:15 pm (UTC -4)
Good luck and let us know if there is anything we can do to help you.
NJstuckinTX
2/12/2012-4:24pm at 4:24 pm (UTC -4)
For certain, your site is quality. Keep up the good work and looking forward to talking baseball. Granted, an Omar vs. Sandy Deathmatch, claymation style would probably help to solve some things just as easily…
Stickguy
2/12/2012-4:28pm at 4:28 pm (UTC -4)
there are a few stubborn types, but really just 1 that makes it toxic (and of course Alex gets a little nasty at times, but I think he probably regrets it afterwards!).
Hey, I say have any opinion you want, as long as you keep the discourse civil, and will actually consider the other sides opinion.
NJstuckinTX
2/12/2012-4:37pm at 4:37 pm (UTC -4)
Respect and civility at all times.
Distributor of Bedding Sets
3/27/2012-2:28am at 2:28 am (UTC -4)
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