Now that the trading deadline has come and gone, it may be time to really put to rest the idea that this team is “rebuilding” or “evaluating” or that “the adults in the room” are following “the plan” or anything else like that.
This writer has been called an optimist, a sunshiner, an apologist, a Kool-Aid drinker, and worse, but as Emerson once said, “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.”
Only the most blindly optimistic of fans could continue to believe that anything is going on with these Mets aside from the Wilpons doing absolutely everything necessary to retain control including the baseball ownership equivalent of financial carpet bombing, followed by constant damage control and Sandy Alderson coming before the cameras to rationalize it all.
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As 2012 began and Met fans had been treated to what has been called the single largest one-year payroll cut in history, we were supposed to feel relieved that Omar was gone, and that finally we would begin building a team the right way, whatever that might be. A few great pickups like Dave Stewart and Dennis Eckersley and a truckload of steroids?
The bottom line is that ownership has been lying loudly and boldly for years now. There was the WFAN appearance at the end of the year a few seasons back. There was a Wilpon spokesman publicly trashing the author of the idea that Wilpon finances were headed for a serious fall. There was Fred assuring everyone that the Madoff situation would not affect Met fortunes. And there was Sandy with his already infamous and positively Nixonian/Clintonian “We’re buyers!” All Sandy needed was to expound upon this by saying something like “People have got to know whether or not their GM is a crook. Well, I’m not a crook.” Or maybe “I’m going to say this again: I did not have trade discussions with that man, Mr. Wilpon.”
Yes, as fans we have been buying BS from ownership for years now.
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The argument was made here and elsewhere that while the first half was exciting and fun, a team with a horrible bullpen, atrocious defense, negligible power and speed, and even less depth simply could not keep this up. This turned out to be true, in a fashion that made the Sixth Annual NY Mets Summer Swoon even more memorable than other recent editions.
Could Alderson have added a piece (or two) weeks ago to the bullpen? It is hard to say and very reasonable to accept that the market had not developed yet, and few if any moves were being made.
But this is not a rookie GM. This is not Omar Minaya, looking behind every potted plant for an aging veteran to award tens of millions to or an injured pitcher to trade for. This is Sandy Alderson, a man supposedly very wise in these matters. The man who built the 1989-1991 A’s, the man who is the father of the still-successful Moneyball A’s, now fighting for a Wild Card behind Brad Pitt and Jonah Hill.
Isn’t the reason you pay a lot for a man like Sandy Alderson because he is supposed to find a market or create one? Because he is the smartest man in the room and if he can manage to pry Wheeler for Beltran, shouldn’t he be able to manage to make an early strike and create a market in which to trade for a reliever or two? Or if he indeed has financial resources, obtain a badly needed catcher? How do markets start to emerge? By people creating them, right?
But what if he simply has no money to spend? What if his minor league system is still loaded with Minaya detritus in the form of mishandled pitchers who decline further at each level they ascend to, and players who feel that you can never spend enough time on the DL?
What is going on here?
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Is Alderson really an indecisive man of questionable integrity?
Or is there a larger picture here? Did he really reluctantly take this job to help salvage the franchise at Bud Selig’s behest and to be the front man for Fred Wilpon, who may be underground in Mongolia right now for all we know? Is Sandy speaking his own words, or someone else’s, or just doing the best he can to appease fans while knowing he simply has no money to spend, precious few really top prospects, and a very uncertain future?
Some combination of the latter seems likely.
Sandy cannot trade Harvey and he cannot trade Wheeler. He knows that. First off, Harvey is the only MLB-ready pitcher he has really in the entire system, and the Wheeler trade is the only thus-far good move he has made as GM, sad as that may seem. The Francisco and Rauch signings were head-scratchers at the time, and while the Pagan trade sure looked at least decent when made, it has turned out to be poor. Not so much due to Pagan, who as usual had one good month and has stunk the other three, but due to the surprisingly weak production of Torres and Ramirez. There’s not much else to judge Sandy on except what he has said and what he has not done.
Again, it is easy to accept that there were no moves to be made, but surely some of the players who changed teams did so due to monetary reasons (were there not several catchers available who were deemed too expensive?), and the Mets were not in the game for any of them. If this is truly due to the idea that nothing really would have helped, that we are rebuilding, and only concerned for the future, then why so many unsigned draft picks?
This writer does not ever claim to be a draft expert, but the most recent lists seen at Mets.com and elsewhere seem to show a large number of unsigned picks in the latter rounds, and an unsigned pitcher with a fine resume from the second round.
If we are not going to make any moves to get better right now, would it not seem that signing as many draft picks as possible would be the natural corollary to this?
What’s the thought process here? Complete inaction by a team which—despite the recent horrid stretch—remains just four games under .500 with over a third of the season to go. OK, so we are playing for the future. Then why not sign that second round pitcher? Exactly how much money could this have cost?
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So what is next? Omar’s remaining albatrosses of Bay and Johan will cost about $41.5 million in 2013. David Wright’s option is $16 mil and Dickey’s is $5 mil. Francisco will earn $6.5 That’s $69 million. For five players. The other twenty players? At an average of a million a spot, we are basically around 2012 levels. Are we to assume payroll will rise significantly? We have heard constantly about how much money the team continues to lose. Met attendance has gone from a high of just over 51,000 in 2008 to just under 30,000 this year, going down every year. Surely with the lack of starpower, attendance the rest of this year will be weak.
Yes, the Wilpons took in money from new investors, but the money owed in the Madoff settlement remains to be finalized and paid. Loans from banks are still out there. And massive debt from the creation of Citi Field is not going away any time soon.
Is there reason to believe that this team is going to be able to do anything of significance in terms of adding salary in the offseason?
The feeling here is that we have just heard the resounding answer to that, and it is a loud and definitive no.
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There’s just not much ready in the minors. Mejia and Familia once held huge hope, but neither seems even close to being ready to help at the MLB level. Johan Santana gave us a no-hitter, but clearly will never again be anything other than a passable number 2 or 3 starter. If he can stay healthy. Jon Niese is a good pitcher who has been better this year, but remains a bit of an enigma. Dillon Gee is surely a good fifth starter, and Dickey continues to be a fine, reliable pitcher. But the team clearly needs Harvey to continue his progress and for Wheeler to do the same in Buffalo. Scary as it may seem, the rotation will be this team’s key to having a shot at being .500+ in the next year or two.
The bullpen does not need to be dissected. It is just awful. Bobby Parnell has been trying to harness his potential since his college days, and he may never get it done. A total remake is in order, but with Francisco and Parnell sure to be back, and precious little to spend, it is hard to see what can be done. We will probably see Josh Edgin and maybe Ramon Ramirez, who may be primed for a low-cost rebound season.
The catcher position? Several mediocre names which were apparently available this trade deadline were said to be too costly for the Mets. Is this going to change this offseason? Surely the inexpensive Ike Davis, Daniel Murphy (who despite being the grittiest player since Ty Cobb, somehow did not draw flies in offers from other teams), and Ruben Tejada will return. As will Wright, most likely.
And will spring training see a battle of attrition between Valdespin, Kirk, Torres, Duda, Bay, and Den Dekker to see whose glaring deficiencies glare the least?
It’s not a pretty picture. And the sixth annual collapse and continued injuries lead one to wonder if this group might simply be best served by beginning its demolition.
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David Wright would bring 2-3 excellent prospects. Depending on the team, he could bring a couple of future starters, maybe even a future star or two. Dickey could probably bring 1-2 good prospects, especially considering his relatively tiny salary for 2013 and potential longevity.
Would this be wise? It sure seems as though it is time to consider it.
Alderson did pry Wheeler from the Giants. Might he be able to obtain 3 to 5 Wheelers for Wright and Dickey? Would this be the way to go? Or just deal Wright, as someone out there must be ready to give an Omar-like Colon package of three future all-stars for Wright, and maybe you keep Dickey.
Release Jason Bay into the wild, don’t offer Torres arbitration, and just go with Duda in LF, Kirk in CF, and Valdy in RF, and hope at least two of them become viable starters?
Spend the little you have on a serious platoon/backup catcher, and for 2-3 new bullpen arms, hope for Johan and Gee to be healthy, and go with (Dickey)/Johan/Niese/Gee/Harvey (and Pelf/Young/a newcomer), with Wheeler hopefully replacing Johan at either the trade deadline or in 2014?
Then you have a very cheap young team, a handful of new top prospects, and really have some money to spend during or after 2013 when you see where you need to shore up: i.e., can Ike really rebound? Is Murph the answer? Do you need to really spend on a catcher? Which OF spot(s) need(s) (a) new face(s)? And you have enough money to sign more draft picks and maybe even international free agents.
This would be difficult, but can fans not see what the alternative is?
Do we really want this again next year? Sign Wright and Dickey to long-term deals, have decent starting pitching, a horrible bullpen, an anemic outfield, and no money to fix things or sign more draftees? Because based on everything we have seen this year, these seem to be the choices.
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This space is not necessarily endorsing the radical nuclear option, but it is definitely time to consider it. Bringing back basically the same team is simply begging for miracles, especially as we may not see a repeat of 2012 from Dickey and Wright.
Ownership needs to be honest with itself and the fans and decide if it is serious about rebuilding, which does not seem to currently be the case. If it is, and if they really just cannot add payroll and afford to sign more draft picks, it is time to go all in and let Alderson use his skills and see what sort of return can be obtained for Wright and Dickey, and it the two can yield 4-5 top prospects, the trigger may have to be pulled. This would mean that after 2013, payroll would shrink by over $50 million, some maybe during the season if a hopefully healthy Johan can be moved. Let the kids develop, sign the draft picks, and use this money on acquisition of younger players to buttress the current Mets who show they are for real by the end of 2013.
By then Wheeler should hopefully take his place beside Harvey, and the 3-5 prospects acquired for Wright (and Dickey?) could be developing, and the franchise would begin to take on a very different face, with Wright, Johan, Bay, and maybe Dickey joining Reyes and Beltran in other cities.
It’s disturbing to think about, but this group seems fatally flawed and in need of a major cleansing. This writer has never and will never be one of the “We never won with Wright” types. But at some point serious, major change is needed.
Now might be the time. Wally Backman might be ready in a year or two to take charge of this group when it is rejuvenated with youth and many new faces.
Perhaps the beginning of this rejuvenation will be making some major changes this offseason.
Because what has been going on for the last several years—at all levels—simply is not working.
93 comments
SaltyGary
8/1/2012-11:37am at 11:37 am (UTC -4)
Only 2316 words LOL Excited to start digging in.
srt
8/1/2012-11:47am at 11:47 am (UTC -4)
Bottom line: Ownership is never going to be honest with the fans because they can’t be honest with themselves.
Everything we’re seeing, everything that’s been done since the Omar reign ended, is all built around to the Wilpons keeping the team – at all costs. You’ll have to pry it from Fred’s cold, dead hands to get a change in ownership.
Given the fact that they aren’t selling and the fact that the Sterling Mets are still in deep financial trouble, it’s not hard to understand why any improvements for the team have been slow. They will continue to be for a very long time, I’m afraid.
Gone are the days of the blank check. We as fans will have to get used to it – at least those of us who wouldn’t even consider boycotting the team or rooting for another one.
I know I’m not going anywhere. I’ll be curious to see how this upcoming off season plays out. Should be very telling.
darknova306
8/1/2012-11:59am at 11:59 am (UTC -4)
That’s exactly right, this whole debate can be put to rest this off-season by Alderson’s action or inaction.
srt
8/1/2012-12:52pm at 12:52 pm (UTC -4)
‘That’s exactly right, this whole debate can be put to rest this off-season by Alderson’s action or inaction.’
Actually, it might make it worse.
If SA doesn’t come out with the checkbook open for FAs to fill holes – as well as trades to do the same…..will it be his doing and only his doing? Or will he be given a set amount again and wind up trying to fill holes within that parameter?
If he doesn’t do enough (in fan’s eyes), will he find himself trying to explain it away as ‘good baseball business sense’, when the real reason might be the Wipon’s Mets and their big financial hole?
In other words, is his first priority (as Kingman pointed out) saving the team for the Wilpons at the expense of putting together a team to compete? (which is my mindset right now).
Or….for the sake of simplification here – will the Wilpons be willing to spend say 30 MIL more and Sandy will say ‘no thank you’?
Trying to say no matter what happens this off season, I fear it won’t be enough to appease fans quick enough and it will be spun up into all kinds of conspiracy theories.
Dang…if they can just pull off a miracle and get to post season all this subterfuge surrounding the team might go away for awhile.
TRS86
8/1/2012-1:17pm at 1:17 pm (UTC -4)
Honestly, maybe when I get over the Post Deadline Whining I will write a post about next season.
To the dismay of many I don’t see a lot of moves this off-season.
I think they will extend Wright, maybe Dickey. They will most likely rid themselves of Bay and maybe throw something different into /CF/RF to try to fix the RHedness of the team. Murphy will most likely still be the 2B and Thole the catcher as IMO they should be. They will bring in a RH catcher and will again attempt to remold the BP. There will most likely be no decent SP upgrades and they will non-tender then re-sign Pelfrey. And I can endorse all of this but fans everywhere will be jumping off the bridge, luckily so many will have jumped before him they won’t fall far.
Stick
8/1/2012-3:53pm at 3:53 pm (UTC -4)
they will get rid of Bay. And maybe extend a year or 2 on Dickey if he will sign real cheap again.
They will not be extending Wright, who will then leave, because he is “too expensive” for a low budget team like the mets to afford.
then by 2014, they will have Neise and maybe Dickey as the 2 “big money guys”
frankly, they should just fire sandy and Ricardi, and pocket those millions, because Ricco is perfectly capable of doing nothing all by himself.
besides, fred and jeffy are making all the decisions. Sandy is just a well educated patsy/front man.
TRS86
8/1/2012-12:47pm at 12:47 pm (UTC -4)
Thing is cutting payroll and building around cheap pitching while surviving until it developed needed to be done regardless of the Wilpons. Their hope is that they don’t lose the team for now but ultimately to think they don’t want to win, which = more cash, is foolish IMO.
Stick
8/1/2012-3:54pm at 3:54 pm (UTC -4)
they don’t give a shit about winning. And doing anything in a year where they have a shot is not even on the radar. Minor moves to help if they cost more than $1.95 are not even considered.
SaltyGary
8/1/2012-11:57am at 11:57 am (UTC -4)
I would say you can’t move Dickey and I am probably on the side of keeping Wright.
Dickey is so cheap and yes that is where you get the value, but I feel the value is needed much more on the ML level. Since he is what 38? I don’t think there is that much value there on a guy who barely made a team two years ago. It would also be a serious blow to fans who have fallen in love with him.
As for Wright, I was for the nuclear action back before MEtsblog kicked us out but my choice was Reyes. My primary reasoning is the both haven’t lived up to the “Big Moment” but you can get more value out of Reyes based on the type of player he is and he has less longevity. Fast forward, we didn’t get squat for him and now Wright being on the table is a fair discussion. In the end I feel it is important to the franchise to have this generations “Mr. Met”. If he stays around a couple more years he will have every Mets offensive record except SB and he can be that ambassador for the next 30 years. So he and the team will have a choice. I imagine they have had this type of discussion so is it possible to do a team friendly contract to allow him to finish his career and give him future on playing options? Does David want that? Can the team afford that. Who the eff knows, but I think long term I want to keep him, short term it may make sense to trade him.
Stick
8/1/2012-3:55pm at 3:55 pm (UTC -4)
the team is what, 5 years away from even being close to relevant or contending?
they should just stop the bullshit and trade them both this off season.
SaltyGary
8/1/2012-12:09pm at 12:09 pm (UTC -4)
I think you did a great job summing up the reality of the situation Knog, thank you for catering to my demand.
This sucks right? This really fricken sucks. I will never be able to root for another team, nor do I want to. I just can’t, too much history and nostalgia, but the Wilpons are screwing it all up due to their greed.
Having formally lived in the Tri-State area and consistently listening to the WFAN, we would all hear about Knicks and Rangers fans complaining about the Dolan’s. It’s really becoming the same issue for Mets fans. One family’s arrogance is destroying a public fixture. They shouldn’t have this right. At least previously Wilpon’s spent money (Dolan’s always spend its the decisions on where that’s the issue) but they cant spend. So getting free agents at least covered up for the arrogance and stupidity and now that the veil has been lifted we just have the stupidity. II know it’s just entertainment but it really is a travesty.
TRS86
8/1/2012-12:38pm at 12:38 pm (UTC -4)
Actually they have proved for a while now that relying on free agents was arrogant and stupid.
srt
8/1/2012-12:53pm at 12:53 pm (UTC -4)
‘This sucks right? This really fricken sucks. I will never be able to root for another team, nor do I want to. I just can’t, too much history and nostalgia, but the Wilpons are screwing it all up due to their greed. ‘
My sentiments exactly, Salty.
NJstuckinTX
8/1/2012-12:09pm at 12:09 pm (UTC -4)
“I did not have trade negotiations with that man” – loved it.
You make a good case for blowing it up. Considering that there is nothing in the system other than some pitching, there isn’t a long term fix for the OF, C, 2B, etc. So, you need to look at FA to upgrade, or draft/trade for prospects. You’ll have about 14-18 fans in attendance of the games if you blow it up like that, but it would get you back on faster track to a better team.
I still think that a Quarter/half blow up would be acceptable. Keep Wright & extend him. Try to move Santana, but if not, let the contract play out. Same with Bay, but DFA him in the offseason. With Dickey, I’d say extend him, but if you can’t, exercise the option and trade him in the offseason. Going into 2014, most the top heavy contracts will be gone (barring wright), and that should leave some space to sign some players as well as expect to get something back in return for Santana and Dickey.
TRS86
8/1/2012-12:41pm at 12:41 pm (UTC -4)
I do love rational thought.
NJstuckinTX
8/1/2012-12:49pm at 12:49 pm (UTC -4)
I’m good for that once every blue moon or so.
TRS86
8/1/2012-12:51pm at 12:51 pm (UTC -4)
MMMMM, Blue Moon. I think maybe I should have one if I am going to spend much more time blogging today.
srt
8/1/2012-12:56pm at 12:56 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, rational thought indeed. Something us Met fans are in short supply of lately……
TRS86
8/1/2012-1:12pm at 1:12 pm (UTC -4)
I honestly don’t get the overreaction to a trade deadline wit a team that is 4 games below .500 in a season that they played over their heads much of the year. We didn’t expect to be competitive this year and needed the magic of great starting pitching to even think of contending. Without that any move would have been just peddling to the masses.
I understand frustration watching all these teams make moves but nothing changed for me yesterday.
TRS86
8/1/2012-12:15pm at 12:15 pm (UTC -4)
Nice article Joe.
kingman 26
8/1/2012-12:27pm at 12:27 pm (UTC -4)
Not funny in the slightest.
Your brain clearly has suffered severely from hanging out in the low minor league of blogs for far too long.
Being optimistic and being blind are two VERY different things.
Which you may be incapable of realizing at this point.
TRS86
8/1/2012-12:40pm at 12:40 pm (UTC -4)
It has nothing to do with being optimistic. I did not expect to be competitive until most likely 2014. However, if you feel calling those who do not view it your way as blind then how are you any different from them?
TRS86
8/1/2012-12:44pm at 12:44 pm (UTC -4)
Again, it’s a trade deadline for a team that was playing over their heads, had a really bad 12 games and is basically out of the race yet we are reacting to it like Yankee fans IMO. Sorry but the dang rush to judgments and whining over a trade deadline is something I just can’t take. Why would inactivity yesterday change a damn thing about what the plan was?
Maybe I just need a break and let all this whining get out over everyone’s heads. Maybe I can go read about the JFK assassination, how FDR knew about Pearl Harbor, 9-11, or some other cooked up conspiracies.
kingman 26
8/1/2012-12:51pm at 12:51 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, the idea that JFK was murdered for a reason is a “cooked up conspiracy.”
There’s not a massive body of reliable research on that which has been being built for nearly 50 years.
You sure do side with the ignorant sometimes Alex.
TRS86
8/1/2012-1:10pm at 1:10 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, of course he was murdered for a reason, it wasn’t an accidental shooting. We just don’t have any damn idea what went through LHO head at the time.
Man oh man do I need a different hobby.
kingman 26
8/1/2012-1:18pm at 1:18 pm (UTC -4)
You should educate yourself on this if you want to discuss it with someone who has literally read about 65 books on it since the mid-1980s, including the Warren Report, and every major book on ALL sides of the debate.
My guess is you have read zero and rely on right-leaning news and popular culture for your judgment on it.
Oswald did not kill him, and believing that is believing perhaps the single biggest–and with minimal research most easily disproved–lie in US history.
Tell me which books you have read to form your opinion on this….
TRS86
8/1/2012-1:31pm at 1:31 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, OK Kingy. As a History major I don’t know a damn thing about history. But why in the hell would I read 65 books on the JFK assassination? What damn difference does it make and it still wouldn’t change the outcome. I have heard all the conspiracy theories and if I had to pick one I like the Joe DiMaggio angle the best. But hey nice way to throw in my political views into the discussion.
I am too busy right now getting a gun because the political add on TV said it’s a dangerous time to be a woman in the US because Romney is running for president. What kind of husband am I that I can’t protect my wife from a middle age presidential candidate?
kingman 26
8/1/2012-1:38pm at 1:38 pm (UTC -4)
That was not a swipe and you know it.
Hey, no offense. I detest ALL major media, as left AND right are full of it.
I majored in history in college, and hearing all of the theories is not the same as actually studying them. This particular issue has been a hobby of mine for a long, long time, as I feel not only is it hugely important, but a lot of the last 50 years of US history can be MUCH better understood by researching what actually happened to JFK. And trust me, if you are as intelligent and open-minded as I like to think you are, if I gave you 1-2 books on this, believe me, you would think about it VERY differently.
And yes, please protect your family from Romney–if your wife works, Bain Capital may buy her place of business and fire her!
TRS86
8/1/2012-1:44pm at 1:44 pm (UTC -4)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/post/obama-ad-on-romney-its-a-scary-time-to-be-a-woman/2012/07/26/gJQATufWBX_blog.html
All I can say is we are in for a long few months and I am so glad for DVR.
kingman 26
8/1/2012-1:51pm at 1:51 pm (UTC -4)
Well chief, if you want to go there and lead me there, Romney and his religion are most certainly not at the forefront of protecting a woman’s right to choose, or women’s rights in general.
Are you going to argue that the Mormon religion promotes equality of the sexes?
Sure, they promote equality among the child brides of polygamists, but I am not sure that really counts.
And I am NOT a fan of Obama, though I will reluctantly vote for him again, but if Romney has one true principle aside from making money, I am not sure we know what it is.
At some point, he will deny that he ever WAS governor of Massachusetts.
While firing dozens more people and destroying some more jobs so he can make a few more million bucks….yes, American needs him for President.
TRS86
8/1/2012-2:05pm at 2:05 pm (UTC -4)
Kingman do you not find it comical that in a presidential campaign that a women gets on the air and opens a commercial with “It’s a scary time to be a woman”. LOL.
SaltyGary
8/1/2012-2:34pm at 2:34 pm (UTC -4)
Probably a bad idea to go down this road but what the hell…
“It’s a scary time to be a woman” I would say it kind of is, and it shouldn’t be. No matter where you stand (and I don’t need to know) this last year we have seen contraception access being rolled back, laws regarding abortion trying to be severely altered. Even in your own state your Governor supporting the “Magic Wand”, until changing his stance after bowing from pressure. There are a lot of things that need to be addressed in this country and this one didn’t need to get added to the list right now. So as a woman no matter what my stance is I would be taking a step back and wondering why woman’s health is currently on the table.
As for the commercial itself, being from NH and seeing Romney in action, he had a pretty liberal stance on social issues like this. Now he is saying what ever he need to to get elected. So the commercial probably is half true but Mitt flip-flops on everything that you can probably stick any accusation on him and it could stick. Also after seeing the failed Kerry Healy (Mitts Lt Gov, who is now on his campaign team) campaign against Duval Patrick and using Mitts former and current campaign team I can tell you from precedent that this will be the nastiest ugliest campaign we may ever see. And I imagine the BS will be so thick from both sides.
SaltyGary
8/1/2012-2:37pm at 2:37 pm (UTC -4)
“So as a woman” OMFG where is the edit button LOL.
how about so if I was a woman…
This is what I get for going there.
kingman 26
8/1/2012-2:38pm at 2:38 pm (UTC -4)
Kingman do you not find it comical that in a presidential campaign that a women gets on the air and opens a commercial with “It’s a scary time to be a woman”. LOL.
———————-
YES.
I find the ridiculous hyperbole and frightened exaggerations comically ridiculous.
On both sides.
The frightened rabbit/sheep on the right who are sure Obama is a madrassa-attending, Kenyan-born, America-hating, Marxist Muslim are every bit as bad.
But yes my friend, it all is crazy and ridiculous.
Obama is no more anti-American than Romney or Lincoln or Reagan or JFK.
kingman 26
8/1/2012-2:42pm at 2:42 pm (UTC -4)
But Gary makes good points.
What about the revolting intrusive measure Virginia has tried to pass?
I would not like that if I was a woman.
But I would be a big, hairy woman.
Stick
8/1/2012-4:01pm at 4:01 pm (UTC -4)
contraceptive access? It is fine. I was just at a CVS, and there are racks and racks of condoms.
I had no problem getting to them, so access was just fine!
and if you want pills, every normal insurance plan covers them, usually with no deductible.
red herring for the socialists.
TRS86
8/1/2012-12:50pm at 12:50 pm (UTC -4)
I will say this, after reading here and elsewhere in Mets land you certainly picked the right picture.
Mr North Jersey
8/1/2012-12:58pm at 12:58 pm (UTC -4)
Kingy is there a Readers Digest version?
kingman 26
8/1/2012-1:19pm at 1:19 pm (UTC -4)
Yes! This IS the abridged Reader’s Digest version!
You should have seen the original!
wanny
8/1/2012-1:33pm at 1:33 pm (UTC -4)
blow what up?
what have the Mets got that they could trade to accomplish a rebuild? Wright and what else?
Will they get enough for Wright to justify the loss of their franchise player who is still in his prime years?
So perhaps they get two nice prospects for Wright. Does that put them in a better position? Because they have two guys who MIGHT be good?
Unless you can do this Philly style by trading away multiple players for multiple prospects, I’m not sure what is accomplished.
No one is paying big for Santana. He’s not the Santana of old, has a billion dollars coming to him and hasnt proven that he can stay on the field.
Dickey is 38 and has stigma of being a knuckleballer. You are just not getting that much for these guys.
The better strategy is to draft well, and try to sign quality free agents to reasonable deals once the Santana and Bay money is off the books.
kingman 26
8/1/2012-1:44pm at 1:44 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks for reading.
But I did say maybe you trade Wright AND Dickey if you can amass 4–5 top prospects.
Did I advocate trading anyone else or even suggest they have anything else of value aside from Johan next year IF he is healthy?
And if they re-sign Dickey and Wright, there is the strong possibility they will do NOTHING else in 2013, and if Wright costs 20 mil+, he eats up a LOT of payroll.
Why aren’t they signing draft picks?
Hey, I wrote this to stimulate opinions, but it seems to me that re-signing Wright and Dickey guarantees no money for anything before at least 2014.
The way I see it is that we have been watching the same movie for years now, except there is no money for a major name. No KRod coming into the bullpen, no big-money OF being signed.
I think it may be time for radical change.
I love Wright. But do we want to see Wright and Dickey and finish 4th forever?
TRS86
8/1/2012-1:49pm at 1:49 pm (UTC -4)
Trading Wright at this point isn’t getting you out of your “mess”. In fact it most likely will slow the process down even more as the Wilpons would make less money and have less money to spend.
Also, why do they need to go spend big money on FA? What did that plan get us?
kingman 26
8/1/2012-1:53pm at 1:53 pm (UTC -4)
Well chief, Beltran certainly was a great signing, and bringing in Delgado was a great move as well.
SOME bad decisions does not invalidate the idea of spending a lot of money on a couple of players.
TRS86
8/1/2012-2:07pm at 2:07 pm (UTC -4)
Well obviously Delgado was a trade as you alluded too. However, we got one playoff appearance out of that 250 million while setting up something completely unsustainable in the process of pushing our farm into one of the worst in the game.
kingman 26
8/1/2012-2:40pm at 2:40 pm (UTC -4)
True, but it goes back to Omar’s judgment.
Re-sign Bradford and Oliver and we might have made the playoffs in 2007 and/or 2008.
wanny
8/1/2012-6:43pm at 6:43 pm (UTC -4)
Kong – I know you suggested trading Dickey too. And as I wrote in my post I don’t think Dickey has the kind of trade value that most pitchers would have because of his age and the stigma of knuckle ballers.
I highly doubt trading Wright and Dickey sets the Mets up for a better future than keeping them and looking toward the post Santana and Bay years (assuming they will re-spend that money).
And I agree that the Mets are clearly not prepared to spend more money than they are currently spending. But when those guys are gone, they can redistribute the money more effectively and remain at the same rate (plus guys like Harvey and Wheeler and perhaps Mejia, Kirk, Edgin etc. will grow into in expensive components). The fact of the matter is, Santana is not worth the money he is being paid, no hitter notwithstanding. They could spend that 25 million on an entirely new bullpen with money to spare.
kingman 26
8/1/2012-7:07pm at 7:07 pm (UTC -4)
Fair enough Wanny, and as always, I sincerely appreciate you reading my bloviation and your wise commentary.
wanny
8/1/2012-8:50pm at 8:50 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t have time to read much nowadays but I always try to find time (and time is required!) to read your work. Agree or not, I always find it entertaining, well-written and intelligent.
By the way, did you catch it last night when Keith compared Ike’s current season to one of your namesake’s? How true…
NJstuckinTX
8/1/2012-2:04pm at 2:04 pm (UTC -4)
Kong,
Really, if you re-rign Wright for 20 mil a year, you are only adding a couple more this year than what he was already making. And if if extend Dickey, i don’t think he’ll get 10 mil a year. Subtract Pelf and you are getting pretty close to a wash right there.
I know there are the normal raises and other junk, but I don’t see those extensions killing the team. Yeah, they maybe hindered for 1 more year (AKA 2013), but after that they should have a ton of flexibility (Santana, Bay, Francisco) to address the needs they have with some free agents then. Cue Tom Petty. The waiting… is the hardest part…
TRS86
8/1/2012-1:46pm at 1:46 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed Wanny, we already basically did what the Phillies did last year with Beltran and Krod. Now we just need to move on from Bay and Johan and hopefully by that time the young pitchers are ready to take over and build something sustainable.
wanny
8/1/2012-6:39pm at 6:39 pm (UTC -4)
As much as I hate to agree with you
I think you are right that the team can really begin to rebuild when Santana and Bay are off the books.
As NJTX points out, Wright won’t cost all that much more than he is being paid now when he is resigned and Dickey will not be a guy who gets paid near what Bay or Santana make.
If you figure Wright and Dickey raises to cost approximately what Bay earns, then you still have all of Santana’s 25 mil to spend plus whatever else (Pelfrey, etc.)
We are not really in disagreement with Kong. We are just in disagreement about when it is practical to expect some real changes.
gategem
8/1/2012-1:53pm at 1:53 pm (UTC -4)
Kong, I read your article prior to having lunch and I ask you did you have to use “detritus?”
I would also like to mention how I believe if he were alive today Tolstoy would be proud of you.
For the most part I agree with your analysis and conjecture. I look forward to this offseason because even inaction speaks volumes.
The trading deadline has momentarily caused many of us to take a step back and consider the big picture regarding this franchise. With that temporarily behind us we now once again delve into baseball myopia and argue the value of OPS+ for a given minor league player.
kingman 26
8/1/2012-1:58pm at 1:58 pm (UTC -4)
LOL! Thank you sir!
darknova306
8/1/2012-2:09pm at 2:09 pm (UTC -4)
The deadline has come and gone, but long before that the smoke dissipated and the mirrors cracked and fell apart. The Magic Fairy Land winning of the first half is a distant memory and “playoffs or bust” rally cry of certain over-optimistic fans has performed its annual Hindenburg reenactment.
I see no reason to whine about the Mets doing nothing at the trade deadline. No one on the magnificent bastion of intelligence that is the internet has posted a single coherent set of moves that would ‘save the season’. Whining about that would be silly.
Now, I do think the Wilpons are in trouble and are going to try very hard to hold onto the team while digging out of debt. The real question here is what number for payroll will the Wilpons decide they can manage while focusing on their debt payments. No one out there knows where that will go. The plan very well could be to shed the payroll after last year and let the Wilpons pay some debts while spending the year answering some questions:
Can Murphy be passable at 2B while hitting well?
Can Ike develop into what we hoped for?
How is Santana’s shoulder going to come back?
Will Niese continue to move forward? What about Gee?
What can we get from Ruben in a full season of starting?
How about those other small pieces like Spin, Baxter, etc?
Let’s remember that Ike/Ruben/Duda/Kirk/etc have never played full major league seasons before either due to injury or not being called up. We still have no real clue what any of them will finally develop into once they’ve got a full year or two of experience. The starting rotation is on its way, and could be a beast in a year or two, so see what you’ve got in the young position players before then, then add the guns you need to. That could very well fit into having a plan and allowing the Wilpons to horde their gold and pay off their loan sharks.
Or the plan could be to have Sandy stabilize the organization while shedding payroll for the Evil Overlords, then step aside once they’re ready to start spending again so DePo can step in and start the big moves without the fanbase being a bunch of whiny idiots because Alderson’s still in charge.
Whatever the long term plans may or may not be, it’s still the same old crap for Mets fans to watch. At least we’re all used to mediocrity at this point…
Ceetar
8/1/2012-2:29pm at 2:29 pm (UTC -4)
wow.
kingman 26
8/1/2012-2:39pm at 2:39 pm (UTC -4)
Tell us exactly how many wins above 15 all five starting pitchers will have again??
Oh yeah, and closers are overrated.
Got it.
Actually this comment may be your all-time smartest.
Ceetar
8/1/2012-2:47pm at 2:47 pm (UTC -4)
no, the smartest bit was not reading this drivel once I realized it was typical conspiracy theory nonsense.
TRS86
8/1/2012-2:55pm at 2:55 pm (UTC -4)
Conspiracy theories among Mets fans? Never. That being said you too calm down on the insults of each other… LOL.
kingman 26
8/1/2012-3:24pm at 3:24 pm (UTC -4)
Conspiracy theory?
Fact–Payroll lowered at a historic level.
Fact–Zero moves at trade deadline.
Fact–Many unsigned draft picks including a 2nd round pitcher with great stats.
Fact-Alderson says “We’re buyers!” And we buy nothing.
Fact-Wilpons have indeed said/done what was mentioned in the above essay regarding Madoff not affecting the Mets, denying the reality of their financial situation, etc.
Fact-The Wilpons owe a LOT of money and revenues continue to decline.
The whole idea of an OPINION piece is to give an OPINION.
Ceetar
8/1/2012-3:59pm at 3:59 pm (UTC -4)
fact: effective (i.e. on the field) payroll roughly the same.
fact: 1 move ‘at’ the deadline. Quintanilla.
fact: Many teams don’t sign draft picks. I’m not sure what this has to do with anything. They signed a lot of their guys, and will get a rollover pick for the second rounder. Stats mean virtually nothing at that point anyway.
Fact: What a GM says publicly is never to be taken seriously or dissected and is always subject to change based on the play on the field, as is what happened.
Fact: facts and situations also change, and many of the “won’t affect the Mets” comments were from before they got sued. And again, there’s only so much you get from PR-spin statements from owners and GMs with motivation to keep things private.
Fact: We have no idea how much money the Mets actually lost last year, nor how much they’ll lose this year (probably less). The reported numbers have been skewered a number of times, and ultimately who makes the call about when to raise payroll and when to cut it or by how much. There are so many unknown things involving finances that anything anyone says is ultimately just a guess. Hence the conspiracy theory angle. You can say whatever you feel is most likely, that’s fine, but there’s no real evidence behind it, nor does the info we have necessarily predict what will happen with the budget going forward.
kingman 26
8/1/2012-4:26pm at 4:26 pm (UTC -4)
Ceetar–
Do you think financial considerations have had anything to do with Met decision-making regarding their roster this year?
Ceetar
8/1/2012-4:59pm at 4:59 pm (UTC -4)
yes, financial considerations have had something to do with decision making for the roster for every major league team. Every major league teams first priority is getting revenue to exceed expense. Every single one.
Stick
8/1/2012-3:48pm at 3:48 pm (UTC -4)
good post. just stop the bullshit, and sell. the team is on life support, and the wilpons would gladly accept a 65 win season or 2 if it meant they could hang onto the team. by any means, fuck the fans.
and that, above, is the sole and entire extent of the “plan”. say and do anything to hang onto the team. Hell, I would do the same thing if it was me, even though it is basically a giant middle finger to the fans.
and the off season will consist of doing nothing. release bay to throw a bone to the few fans left that care, sign a few mediocre filler guys, and continue to wait for the future that does not exist in the minors.
nothing is going to happen. Don’t bother to come up with any great trade ideas. they aren’t happening, even though there are probably deals that will improve the team without increasing payroll..
and really, it is obvious that they should just trade Wright and dickey since it can bring some future talent back. Otherwise it will be Wright, and a bunch of nobodies making minimum wage.
Oh, and real, the Phils will be spending their 30-40 mill this off season on real talent (hitters), just like I told you they would be.
Ceetar
8/1/2012-4:00pm at 4:00 pm (UTC -4)
The Wilpons are keeping the Mets. to think that they are, or will be forced to sell, is old news. It’s just not happening.
Stick
8/1/2012-4:05pm at 4:05 pm (UTC -4)
by sell, I meant anything with value. Wright, DIckey, Mr. met, those neat waterless urinals. WHatever they can get something back for.
I know the wilpons are going to keep this team until it is run totally into the ground. Or selig goes away, which may never happen.
kingman 26
8/1/2012-4:40pm at 4:40 pm (UTC -4)
Thank you Stick.
This is how I see it.
And for TRS and Ceetar, I really am not reacting to the last 24 hours.
I am reacting to the last 18 months mostly, and really to everything since the beginning of 2009.
It is not about a meaningless trade deadline move.
The team is a failure.
It is time for wholesale changes.
srt
8/1/2012-5:55pm at 5:55 pm (UTC -4)
Stick…..I read yesterday that when the Phillies got done they were just 5 MIL under the luxury tax cap.
Not sure how much money they might have coming off the books end of this season. If it’s several million, they’ll be spending again. That’s Amaro’s MO.
Stick
8/1/2012-11:47pm at 11:47 pm (UTC -4)
pence, vicky, palonco and Blanton I know off the top of my head. That is 40-45 or so. Back out 10 in a raise to Hamels, and they have at least 30 to spend.
SaltyGary
8/1/2012-4:23pm at 4:23 pm (UTC -4)
Guys the new Metsblog format got released, I will withhold my judgments.
SaltyGary
8/1/2012-4:33pm at 4:33 pm (UTC -4)
BWAHAHAHA he just and cleared the comment section on it. It was brutal.
kingman 26
8/1/2012-4:42pm at 4:42 pm (UTC -4)
Funny, I just responded to you over there!
Mr North Jersey
8/1/2012-4:37pm at 4:37 pm (UTC -4)
Wow, why just not cut to the chase and just call it
“SNY. Sports” like ESPNNewYork and get it over with?
Matt no longer describes himself as owner but rather editor in chief so I am going to go out on a limb and say he no longer owns it.
Just get it over with and stop calling it Metsblog. It is
“SNY Sports” and even without the name change has been for some time already as far as I am concerned.
If you had not linked it here I may have gone some time before knowing they changed the layout.
kingman 26
8/1/2012-4:44pm at 4:44 pm (UTC -4)
“Editor in chief”??
HAHAHAHAHA!
That is a GREAT one!
If there is one thing he is not, it is an editor!
SaltyGary
8/1/2012-4:46pm at 4:46 pm (UTC -4)
Whats great on the right pane it says:
Michael Baron
Pitching Analysis
Shouldn’t it say “Analyst”?
Trs86
8/1/2012-5:02pm at 5:02 pm (UTC -4)
No I think it’s right. It’s kind of like the no but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express thing. Baron is analyzing pitching but is far from an analyst.
kingman 26
8/1/2012-5:12pm at 5:12 pm (UTC -4)
Baron couldn’t analyze a frigin piece of cake with a fork.
Stick
8/1/2012-4:47pm at 4:47 pm (UTC -4)
he is also something like “director of digital media” for SNY. Mindboggling.
Connor O'Brien
8/1/2012-6:07pm at 6:07 pm (UTC -4)
If he isn’t the owner, then it’s a job. That means he can be fired. LOL
Also, on the side of his bio, Cerrone calls himself “Executive Editor”
SaltyGary
8/1/2012-4:50pm at 4:50 pm (UTC -4)
The biggest comment seems to be “void of personality” and the left banner is horrible. These people really don’t know Cerrone and his white shirts do they.
srt
8/1/2012-6:00pm at 6:00 pm (UTC -4)
I haven’t been to Metsblog in a couple of months now. I get my Mets news from other sources now.
Some complain about lunatic fringe posters over on MMO but IMO, metsblog is so much worse. It’s where WFAN callers go to blog.
Clicked over there to see the new format you were all talking about. I see it’s the same format for Ted Berg’s new look, so I should have known. Ted’s blog is one I do frequent a few times a week.
kingman 26
8/1/2012-7:05pm at 7:05 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, but the handful of psychos do not rule the roost there as they do at MMO.
The psychos are in the tiny minority there.
Sylow59
8/2/2012-2:46pm at 2:46 pm (UTC -4)
But there are just soooo many idiots there, “management” included. It is to the point where I am rethinking this Met fan thing because of the semi-formal association between the Gang ‘o’ Idiots and the Mets proper. Seriously, how can any organization worth several hundred million dollars allow that level of stupidity to be associated with them and do nothing about it?
kingman 26
8/2/2012-3:38pm at 3:38 pm (UTC -4)
Sylow, I have had similar thoughts!
Has NO ONE in Met management or their sponsors’ people who handle these things ever checked that site out?
Sylow59
8/2/2012-4:48pm at 4:48 pm (UTC -4)
Chesty – If I made 1% of the mistakes over there I’d be fired and my career would be over. I’ve never thought the SA / Selig connection and the milking by the Wilpons had any validity – I mean who puts that amount of money at risk? These aren’t stupid people, they can’t be. But the way Metsblog is run and the trust the Mets put into Cerrone (they let him expand MB???) makes me think otherwise.
oklahoma met
8/1/2012-5:48pm at 5:48 pm (UTC -4)
Excellent read Mr. Kingman.
I’m with most in that the off season will be very telling.
Sorry to Trs86 for “whining” yesterday. And a little today.
And probably a little more tomorrow.
kingman 26
8/1/2012-7:05pm at 7:05 pm (UTC -4)
Thank you very much for reading and for the kind words!
SaltyGary
8/1/2012-7:55pm at 7:55 pm (UTC -4)
So just like I called out Kong for this post I think I want to call out…. how about SRT! We had two (as TRS calls them) whining posts, so lets get the other perspective.
SRT do you think by some time tomorrow you can write something up and I will help you get it posted. YOu are articulate and awesome, and you even brought this subject up. So what do you say?
kingman 26
8/1/2012-8:10pm at 8:10 pm (UTC -4)
YES!
I WANT An SRT/MF4D post!
Please??
SaltyGary
8/1/2012-8:35pm at 8:35 pm (UTC -4)
No pressure SRT just 20,000 words.
apagano
8/1/2012-10:55pm at 10:55 pm (UTC -4)
I would be against the nuclear option. If Wright and Dickey want to stay here beyond 2013, then Alderson should get them signed. It’s not easy to replace a reliable #2 starter and an All-Star 3B. If you can afford to keep them, you should. Surround them with the prospects you are developing and then spend money to fill in the holes that remain.
2013 might not be pretty and it could leave even more fans standing on the ledge. That’s just how it’s going to be until the Bay and Santana contracts expire. All I’m really looking for next year is for Harvey and eventually Wheeler to upgrade the rotation and for Alderson to do a better job with the bullpen than he did last December. If Harvey pitches well and the bullpen improves, the Mets might be 4-5 wins better. Maybe that will be good enough to really make them buyers next July. Call me a naive optimist, but I still believe it will get better. Maybe not next year, but it’s moving in that direction. It took years for the Wilpons, Minaya and Madoff to put the Mets in this hole. It’s going to take years to get them out.
Trs86
8/1/2012-11:37pm at 11:37 pm (UTC -4)
Welcome!
I too think there is no way you trade those two. Not only due to fan and ticket but also you have no replacements ready and aren’t likely to get enough prospects back to make up for their loss ever or any time soon.
apagano
8/2/2012-12:13am at 12:13 am (UTC -4)
I know! I sought out your post here because of you. I love your style even when we disagree. As you always say, aggressive ignorance is the real problem. Or as I used to say to my ex-girlfriend “you are so nasty about everything that you’re wrong even when you’re right.”
kingman 26
8/2/2012-3:37pm at 3:37 pm (UTC -4)
Thank you for the great compliments and for coming over here–I truly appreciate it!