I meant to get to this yesterday but unfortunately at the time our blog was having uh maintenance issues.
After RA’s last start where he dominated the Phillies for 7 innings yet fell to the Mets offense, he had the following to say:
“It’s unfulfilling,” Dickey said. “I’m not leaving the park satisfied, that’s for sure.”
Obviously all the talk is about Wright and if he will be re-signed, traded, let reach FA? If he is clutch or a choker and blah blah blah. However, you get the occasional thought about Dickey. RA’s season has been nothing short of incredible and he currently is my favorite pitcher to watch. Yes I said pitcher, not a freak of nature. He knows exactly what he is doing out there but not only that he is a great representative of the team off the field as well. He has went above and beyond to represent the Mets brand in the media as well as the community. He really is the complete package.
However, while RA is a different breed, I think that the drive to win on a personal and team level is just as strong as many other potential FA. Most likely more so than your average player Dickey knows how quickly you can burst on the scene and how quickly you can fall from grace. He obviously has to be concerned about the future of his family so it’s not to say money isn’t a concern but regardless of what his future is, he is going to get paid handsomely the next 3-5 years. In my opinion it will boil completely down to what the team does for RA to make his decision about his future with the Mets. In fact I am not sure there could be an extension on the board this off-season that he would take unless that offer was over the top.
Dickey has known to be upset at the deadlines about not acquiring the help needed. While never really critical you could tell that RA is fighting for his players, himself, his team, the fans. Most of you know my feelings on the deadline and not wanting fluff to make me feel better. I was rational enough to know that the team had no shot in hell of continuing to be in the race and a mediocre player here or there wouldn’t change anything. However, that is not the job of the player. The player has to believe in himself and the team above and beyond. So is there something to the fact that to the players trade rumors and moves or lack of moves either one could upset the balance or “deflate the team”? Sure. To what level? On a team knows that.
What we do know is that moving forward the Mets seem to have decided to build their team around their young pitching. With not only guys like Niese, Harvey and Wheeler (throw Gee in that list as well if healthy) but hopefully a host more including Mejia, Familia, Fulmer and guys that I should be more familiar with.
What we also know is the Mets system is void of hitters and honestly void of competent defenders at multiple positions with top players always being forced to play out of position if they even have one.
Omar had one thing right long ago and then strayed from it. It’s time to go old school and get back to what he actually had right. Not just in terms of drafting and trades but FA as well. The Mets are never going to be a station to station team that blast HR over the great walls of Citi. They need to be built on Pitching, Speed and Defense. While originally I might have been to optimistic on when that could occur, I still feel that with fundamental changes that process can get rolling this off-season but some of the moves will not be popular. However, what is more unpopular? Sucking.
So all that to say this. RA Dickey is having the best season a Mets pitcher has had since the days of Gooden. Strike while the iron is hot, it’s not going to end well. So trading Dickey isn’t going to be popular and not only that what I am proposing might be even more unpopular. Most will say that if Dickey is traded it should be for a power hitter. I disagree. The first step is to find that lead-off hitter that is sorely missing. My proposal is Dickey for Elvis Andrus. I am not going to lie, I don’t really know how desperate the Rangers are to find room for 19 year old Profar. What I do know is that they are certainly in win now mode and have been doing so for 3 years now. Yet they are sorely missing that “Ace” of the staff level pitcher.
Yes I know we already have a SS. However, if you are a fan of WAR (which I have my battles with) Andrus’ WAR is over double that of Tejada. Also according to Fangraphs fielding stat Ruben significantly trails Elvis in that category as well. I like Ruben but one thing he is not is a superstar level SS. My proposal remember is about speed and defense so Ruben actually still has a major role, at 2B. Daniel is a great story but he just isn’t a 2B. Honestly I don’t know what he is. Has he been better than expected? Yeah. But they also play him in shallow RF which can’t be beneficial to the overall defense. Ruben with his great defense at 2B and ability to fight off pitches would be a great #2 hitter moving forward.
I could go on and on and it doesn’t have to be Andrus. What I do feel however is the Mets have to make moves to shake things up. Stop worrying about continuing status quo and keeping draws for the fans because guess what? It’s not working.
93 comments
Pacific NorthTex
9/20/2012-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
I’d take that for sure. SP takes a hit, but based on Age and his “stock being high”, it would be a perfect sell now move. Better D up the middle, more speed. What’s not to like. Still does answer the OF, C, etc…, but it does answer 2B.
TRS86
9/20/2012-11:00am at 11:00 am (UTC -4)
But what it does do is give the team a damn direction that they are going in. If you are building on pitching speed and defense for the long run with youth then do it damned of fan reaction. They aren’t coming anyway.
Stickguy
9/20/2012-11:30am at 11:30 am (UTC -4)
I agree. Trade wright too, for the same basic reasons.
If they can get a key piece to build around for Dickey, that is a no brainer. And for Wright, I honestly think he is overrated at this piot. Outside of a couple of freakishly hot months to start this year, he has not been a “superstar” player for many years. If some teams wants to give a return like he is, take it and run, and try to find another way to use 15-20 million a year for the next 5-7.
sit or get off the pot.
and like Real said, at this point, the fan base is beat to a pulp already. Might as well get all the pain over with at one point.
if nothing else, it is taking a stand. Enough of this nebulous we are going for it no we aren’t, in/out, etc. If the plan is to do nothing for another couple years and hope a winning team magically appears out of the corn field, we are doomed to many years of mediocrity and apathy.
so, bold action here may piss off a few people, but easily could revitalize many more. Because making those moves, and toppling a few more dominos to go along with it, will certainly grab attention!
only winning of course will really bring the fans out, but putting some exciting new young talent on the field will help both aspects (fan interest and wins). Dickey and Wright on an also run team is not doing jack.
SO, if they trade Dickey and Wright and end up replacing (by at least mid year) with Flores and Wheeler, but also adding Andrus (Reals scenario) and say BJ upton gives a whole new look.
couple that with a real catcher to build with (from the trade) and a legit OF (RF or CF) also from the trades, and you just might have a decent team, certainly one on the upswing.
srt
9/20/2012-11:31am at 11:31 am (UTC -4)
Yikes! I really want RA to be part of the solution. Heck, he could keep pitching for years, coming out of the BP when his age might prevent him from taking the mound every 5th day as a starter.
But I hear what you’re saying. Watching this mostly talentless offense this second half has convinced me they’d better do something other than just shuffle the deck chairs. My fear though is that’s exactly what they’re gonna do for 2013.
If Citi is a ghost town now, how much worse will it be next season? And to boot, if we’re not in the race come the ASB and don’t have at least one player on that AS team, how embarrassing is that likely to be given we’re hosting the 2013 AS game?
TRS86
9/20/2012-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
Here’s my question SRT, how much worse would attendance be if you traded RA for Andrus and then Wright for Upton?
Stickguy
9/20/2012-11:35am at 11:35 am (UTC -4)
if they added a new dynamic and some excitement (or wins!) it could go up. But not likely to go down much at this ppoint
TRS86
9/20/2012-11:44am at 11:44 am (UTC -4)
Exactly we have got to be reaching the point of leveling off. Some fans are going to go to the game even if there is no shot in hell of winning.
srt
9/20/2012-12:30pm at 12:30 pm (UTC -4)
Yeah, I really don’t know.
The only thing that will get the attendance/revenue up is winning. Rolling the dice and trading Wright and Dickey might provide that, or start to provide that anyway.
But all I kept hearing from back after the collapse of ’07 was ‘break up the core’. That’s done, check. Didn’t really help. Then it was fire the manager(s), – check, didn’t help.
After that it was new FO, check. So far, not a lot of results.
And I know I sound like a broken record here, at MMO, at AA….but I still have to point the finger back to the Wilpons on this.
Stickguy
9/20/2012-1:42pm at 1:42 pm (UTC -4)
well, you are definitely consistent in your message, I give you credit for that!
TRS86
9/20/2012-5:54pm at 5:54 pm (UTC -4)
Well you can’t fire the owners and those guys have shown the desire to spend money when they have it. However, to get it back you can’t keep doing the same thing over and over again when it isn’t working.
Bryan
9/20/2012-11:50am at 11:50 am (UTC -4)
I actually think that trading Dickey could be best for both parties. Dickey will get a chance to go to a team that’s an immediate competitor and I also think Dickey is the Mets best trade chip, so he’ll give them the best return.
Andrus would be a great return. If not him, then a right handed RF with power. I don’t have anyone specific in mind, but Andrus would be great. Tejada is just as good defensively at 2B and it would free up Murph as a trade chip, which isn’t a bad thing.
I also think it’s better to trade Dickey than a younger guy like Niese
TRS86
9/20/2012-12:01pm at 12:01 pm (UTC -4)
I know we are in need of a decent power bat but I think we are focusing too much on that. Get back to playing to the strength of the park that is our home. The A’s are doing fine without natural HR hitters. Get speedy defenders with decent pop and build around that.
Stickguy
9/20/2012-12:20pm at 12:20 pm (UTC -4)
line drive doubles/triples hitters with solid slugging and good OBP, with moderate HR power (say, 20ish overall)
IOW, what Wright was for the first 1/2 of this season.
use the big park, drive balls up the gap and run.
you can still have a guy like Duda or Ike that has the natural power to drive it out still. Just don’t go crazy trying to get everyone on the team like that.
TRS86
9/20/2012-12:37pm at 12:37 pm (UTC -4)
You can have those guys but keep them the hell away from the #4 spot until they can actually be balanced hitters. Just because a guy swings hard doesn’t mean he hits 4th. Ike fits much better as a #7 hitter until he can be more balanced.
srt
9/20/2012-12:32pm at 12:32 pm (UTC -4)
We definitely need a true lead off hitter.
Ruben would be great batting 2nd.
Stickguy
9/20/2012-12:21pm at 12:21 pm (UTC -4)
I agree that trading DIckey probably makes more sense than trading Neise.
Mr North Jersey
9/20/2012-12:01pm at 12:01 pm (UTC -4)
This is so Off Topic:
I was over at MMO posting some Youtube links and it got me to browsing looking randomly for other tracks and just listened to the Eagles Hotel California. Talk about a timeless classic man the song never fails to elicit this just really chill vibe whenever I hear it.
TRS86
9/20/2012-12:06pm at 12:06 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, I am glad that you can still find solace somewhere NJ.
Stickguy
9/20/2012-12:22pm at 12:22 pm (UTC -4)
Desperado is another one that never gets old. Tequila sunrise also.
srt
9/20/2012-12:33pm at 12:33 pm (UTC -4)
Eagles were one of my favorites, back in the day.
Hotel California is a classic, IMO.
kingman 26
9/20/2012-10:28pm at 10:28 pm (UTC -4)
Have loved the Eagles since I was about 9 years old in 1975, and always will.
Great songwriters, great singers, and man, I saw them in Newark a couple of years ago, Henley can still sing great, Joe Walsh was sober and amazing, and they were just surprisingly outstanding.
Maybe the coolest moment was when Henley was singing his solo hit Boys of Summer, Glenn Frey was wandering the stage playing rhythm guitar and without a mike just singing along.
One of the all-time great American bands.
gategem
9/23/2012-11:52am at 11:52 am (UTC -4)
One of my favorite groups and back in those days I still had my damned hearing. I have all the Eagles stuff on vinyl.
darknova306
9/20/2012-1:44pm at 1:44 pm (UTC -4)
Great article, and I completely agree. Now is the time to trade Dickey. His value will never be higher. And given how frustrated he’s seemed at times, and how generally awful the team is, I can’t think a rational man like him would want to re-sign unless it’s for a ludicrous Omarian deal. Pitching is hardest thing to acquire and develop cheaply, so he’s easily the best trade piece this team has.
TRS is on the money with wanting speed and defense. The only kind of team that can win with the plodding station to station ball the Mets have used this year is a team with boatloads of power… something the Mets have zero of. Outside of 2 months of David Wright this year, no one on the team really plays well in that park (maybe Murphy, but defense up the middle is way too important to me to tolerate him there).
TRS86
9/20/2012-5:53pm at 5:53 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks Dark. Is it a bad thing when you and I are now seeing eye to eye so much?
kingman 26
9/20/2012-10:26pm at 10:26 pm (UTC -4)
No, it just means you are both wrong.
Trade Wright and keep Dickey.
Pitching wins.
Pacific NorthTex
9/20/2012-10:34pm at 10:34 pm (UTC -4)
Kong. Pitching does win, but that seems that is all the Mets have int eh minors, save Flores and some kids in diapers. You have to trade from strength.
Trs86
9/20/2012-10:36pm at 10:36 pm (UTC -4)
Especially when the best of that group is the oldest and has little reason to come back.
kingman 26
9/20/2012-10:40pm at 10:40 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, but RA is proven. The guys in the minors are not and may all turn into Mejias or Gen K.
Every day becomes more difficult to be a fan of this absolute disaster, but I guess I feel that with RA/Harvey/Niese and Gee/Johan/Wheeler, there is at least the hope of a potentially excellent rotation.
On the other hand, I am 100% sure they should trade Wright, and maybe you guys are right; trade RA AND Wright for all you can get, and build around Harvey/Niese/Wheeler and just pray that Wheeler is good too.
Seriously, this last two months has been beyond belief.
I did feel that 2012 would be worse than last year, but the way they are finishing is too much. They will be in last place to end the year.
Trs86
9/20/2012-10:43pm at 10:43 pm (UTC -4)
Problem is kong they can’t score a damn run and trading Wright unless you get immediate offense back will make Dickey pointless anyway. Trading Dickey at least you can improve the real weakness.
kingman 26
9/20/2012-10:46pm at 10:46 pm (UTC -4)
TRS, for once I am almost–ALMOST–speechless.
I just cannot believe this team.
It is indeed hard to imagine this offense without Wright’s bat. Actually, in the second half with him doing nothing, we have a preview of that offense.
Trs86
9/20/2012-10:50pm at 10:50 pm (UTC -4)
The detractors are right, he can’t carry the team. Thing is that isn’t his fault and he shouldn’t have to. I never expected him to be a monster. Just a solid all around player, those guys are needed on a good team. Can you build around him? Of course not, is he part of the problem, I would say that’s foolish.
kingman 26
9/20/2012-10:54pm at 10:54 pm (UTC -4)
I do agree with all of this.
However, as I say below, is giving him a monster deal as he turns 30 and has been awful 3/4 of the last 2 years the way to go, or the Omar way to go?
And while I never ever feel he is part of the problem, is it just time to really change everything?
It’s the same movie for four years now—and as with all multiple sequels, this one is really bad.
Maybe it is time for serious change.
Even if it is just for the sake of change, can we argue it at this point?
Hazmet
9/20/2012-7:01pm at 7:01 pm (UTC -4)
What? The Mets are bad? How could it be when the commissioner said yesterday:
“The story’s had a happy ending,” Selig said
or,
“I don’t consider the Mets a problem in any way, shape or manner,” he said. “They’re on the right track. That should give you your answer.”
The Selig, The Selig: or in German “Die Selig Die Selig”
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/mets/bud-selig-at-ease-with-mets-financial-situation-1.4018486
Stick
9/20/2012-7:50pm at 7:50 pm (UTC -4)
that had nothing to do with winning. just paying the bills, and repaying the MLB loans. All is well means the Wilpons don’t have to sell right now.
kingman 26
9/20/2012-10:24pm at 10:24 pm (UTC -4)
Dickey for Andrus?
Trade the best part of the team’s ONLY strength for a player who plays a position where we have perhaps our ONLY young, solid, inexpensive good player?
While I agree that massive change is sorely needed on this simply atrocious and utterly soft team of choking, fading losers, starting pitching is the ONLY hope of this team to be any good at all in the next couple of years.
Trade Wright for whatever you can get and re-sign RA.
Trs86
9/20/2012-10:34pm at 10:34 pm (UTC -4)
Kong its a magical season for Dickey but I see no way in hell he resigns. Remember it’s a two way street.
kingman 26
9/20/2012-10:36pm at 10:36 pm (UTC -4)
Interesting perspective. I am not sure what I think.
While I believe Dickey may feel some affinity for the Mets for giving him the chance to do all of this, and while being in NY may be excellent for him to receive visibility for his charitable works, writing, etc., it is becoming hard to believe how bad this team has become.
I guess I am hoping they can re-sign RA more than I am saying that I am sure he WANTS to be here.
Really, who would?
This has gone from mediocre to bad to simply embarrassing.
Trs86
9/20/2012-10:39pm at 10:39 pm (UTC -4)
That was kinda the point of the article, I think Wright has more of a reason to come back than Dickey. I just can’t see him being happy here long term. It’s not just that we are bad but I just think he will do what’s right for him.
kingman 26
9/20/2012-10:41pm at 10:41 pm (UTC -4)
Funny, I think Wright probably wants out even more.
Trs86
9/20/2012-10:45pm at 10:45 pm (UTC -4)
For some reason I disagree. I believe Wright loves NY and would prefer to stay. Dickey I don’t think that is the case. He wants to win last year, this year and next year. That’s just not happening here.
Pacific NorthTex
9/20/2012-10:37pm at 10:37 pm (UTC -4)
Plus, it’s a perfect sell high (and not high like them Eagles chatted about above) on a player who is 38. Even as a knuckleballer, if you don’t see this team turning it around by 2014, then Dickey is not part of the future.
kingman 26
9/20/2012-10:44pm at 10:44 pm (UTC -4)
You guys are starting to convince me.
But to open another can of worms, I think we are truly f***ed, as ownership and management are simply in survival mode.
If Sandy can get 4–5 great prospects for Wright and RA, maybe you have to do it.
Trs86
9/20/2012-10:46pm at 10:46 pm (UTC -4)
I am torn on Wright. It depends on the offers and his contract request. We also have to have confidence in Flores or a guy from the trade can play 3b by 2014.
kingman 26
9/20/2012-10:51pm at 10:51 pm (UTC -4)
I guess on Wright I feel that he is about to turn 30, and has been horrible for 3/4 of the last 2 years.
After 2011 and the second half this year, do you give him 6/110 or whatever?
Pacific NorthTex
9/20/2012-10:52pm at 10:52 pm (UTC -4)
Wanny brought up a good point about the kid Fraser from Cincy (plus prospects as well). And honestly, trade wright away, then do your hypothetical RA for Andrus, and you Have murph as the super sub for 2B, 3B and 1B. No need for turner.
Trs86
9/20/2012-10:55pm at 10:55 pm (UTC -4)
Answer both of you. I would kill for the Hamilton kid from the Reds.
As for Wright’s deal it is hard to say what the market will be. I think no more than 5 years 18m per year but who knows if there will be an idiot team like the Marlins. I think you offer him your best deal that you feel comfortable with ASAP and if he doesn’t take it you got to trade him this offseason.
Trs86
9/20/2012-10:57pm at 10:57 pm (UTC -4)
Wanny brought up another good point, would you trade Wright for Justin Upton straight p?
Pacific NorthTex
9/20/2012-11:19pm at 11:19 pm (UTC -4)
I would, for a couple reasons. Youth, contact and OF.
Trs86
9/20/2012-11:21pm at 11:21 pm (UTC -4)
I think I would to. You would be buying Upton low with a lngterm contract that is very tradable if it blows up.
darknova306
9/21/2012-2:00am at 2:00 am (UTC -4)
As much as I love what Dickey has done, I don’t see him replicating this season, so his trade value will never be higher. Couple that with the several times he’s seemed visibly frustrated with the team’s situation in interviews, I can’t see him really wanting to re-sign.
Even with a strong rotation next year, the Mets don’t have nearly enough talent to credibly make a run, so you need to get as much talent as close the majors as soon as possible. Basically, trade Dickey and Wright the second each of them hesitates signing their offered extensions.
And of course the Mets will put all their pitching hopes on Harvey and Wheeler only to see them have injury plagued, or just “down years”, seasons at the wrong times and the team won’t seriously contend again until well after 2016. Welcome to the Mets’ fanbase. Stay a while and drink heavily. Cheers!
srt
9/20/2012-10:45pm at 10:45 pm (UTC -4)
Have to wonder what Dickey is thinking after watching this 16-1 loss tonight.
Ugliest game of the year. Only good thing about it is, there’s not too many left to play to even try and top it.
Trs86
9/20/2012-10:47pm at 10:47 pm (UTC -4)
Anyone want to go back and tell me why I should love me some Heffner?
srt
9/20/2012-11:02pm at 11:02 pm (UTC -4)
LOL, I think there was speculation in the dugout tonight on what you thought of Hefner’s start…..
Trs86
9/20/2012-11:03pm at 11:03 pm (UTC -4)
No need to speculate. I miss Miggy, lol.
srt
9/20/2012-11:04pm at 11:04 pm (UTC -4)
hahahaha – I don’t think even Figgy was this bad, let alone Miggy.
Trs86
9/20/2012-11:05pm at 11:05 pm (UTC -4)
Who as expected was a September call up for the Braves and has pitched well in relief.
kingman 26
9/20/2012-10:48pm at 10:48 pm (UTC -4)
I’ll raise you–this may be the ugliest game in the last four years at least.
srt
9/20/2012-11:03pm at 11:03 pm (UTC -4)
You could be right. But this is the freshest in my mind.
It’s not only the 16-1 loss.
It’s the blown opportunity in a down year to at least play spoiler and crush the Phillies hope of post season WC. We couldn’t even manage to get that doen.
Trs86
9/20/2012-11:06pm at 11:06 pm (UTC -4)
Well they are old so the plan obviously was to cause arthritis to set in from swinging the bat so hard and having to run the bases often.
gategem
9/21/2012-12:47am at 12:47 am (UTC -4)
I was enjoying the Giants crushing the Panthers in a game that due to injuries the Giants were supposed to lose. So I missed tonight’s Mets game. So, if what you say is true (the score seems to support your allegation) then thank goodness for Thursday night football.
Stickguy
9/21/2012-8:18am at 8:18 am (UTC -4)
Damn it. I totally forgot that the Giants were on, and missed the whole thing. Crap. But good that they won!
Trs86
9/20/2012-10:52pm at 10:52 pm (UTC -4)
Poor Stick.
wanny
9/20/2012-11:09pm at 11:09 pm (UTC -4)
It is clear the team has quit. I think Terry has all but acknowledged it. And unfortunately I think a good man, and a decent baseball manager will lose his job after the season as a result.
Trs86
9/20/2012-11:19pm at 11:19 pm (UTC -4)
I was just thinking about this. Obviously Warthen should go and honestly I don’t care to much either way for Collins. I could see Wally getting it just because he will pout about Vegas.
However, what I was thinking about is as Mets fans we are always looking for someone to blame instead of trying to figure out and fix the problem. We have fired 2 managers and one on the way, all kinds of coaches, a GM and his staff, turned over almost the entire team but yet we still may not have figured out the problem or how to fix it.
Stick
9/21/2012-12:24am at 12:24 am (UTC -4)
ask MF what she thinks.
srt
9/21/2012-7:38am at 7:38 am (UTC -4)
I commented on that very same thing above, trs….
Mets fired two managers, several coaches, turned over the FO, and broke up the 2006 core (only Wright is left).
Since I highly doubt Wright is the problem that only leaves one entity left. Wait for it……it’s the Wilpons. (where have you heard me say this before? lol)
I truly believe what we’re watching right now is a result of the money and nothing but. Save the team at all costs for Fred. Even Selig was in on that. The deal cut between Selig and the Wilpons included SA. His number one goal was saving the team in the short term for the Wilpons. I’d say he accomplished that goal very well.
Since the Wilpons are either unable or unwilling to invest in this team I don’t expect anything to change anytime soon. Bottom line IMO, the Wilpons have to go. I know new ownership is no guarantee of anything but I’m willing to bet one of the first things they do in the short term is spend some money and invest in the team.
TRS86
9/21/2012-8:18am at 8:18 am (UTC -4)
As much as I love you guys, lol ya’ll are still missing my point. I am tired of blaming anyone. The Wilpons aren’t going away anytime soon so it’s pointless to blame anymore. Now is the time to fix the problem not worry about who caused it. Since the Mets have won with the Wilpons before it can be done. Enough of the crutches and blaming it on Beltran, Reyes, Wright, Jerry, Willie, Sandy, Omar, Terry and the Wilpons. Fix the damn team. I know we can’t do it. I understand that but dang am I tired of the sides and blame game.
srt
9/21/2012-9:07am at 9:07 am (UTC -4)
Mets have had one post season run since the Wilpons bought out Doubleday. That’s it. And they’ve regressed each season since then, even with a complete turn over of the team (except Wright), the coaches (except Warthen), the managers and the FO.
You can’t ignore the elephant in the room.
Stickguy
9/21/2012-8:22am at 8:22 am (UTC -4)
well, replace “blame” with “identify the problem/root cause”
same thing really, and if you don’t know what the problem actually is (assessing the blame), who can you fix it?
It’s like if your car dies and won’t start. You take it to the garage, and tell them to fix it, but you don’t want to pay them to figure out what is wrong first, but you just want it fixed.
srt
9/21/2012-9:09am at 9:09 am (UTC -4)
Good analogy.
You can put a bandaid on the problem and keep your fingers crossed your car lasts a few more months until it breaks down again. But if you don’t fix the cause, it will break down again, and again, and again.
TRS86
9/21/2012-12:15pm at 12:15 pm (UTC -4)
It’s not ignoring the problem, we already know the Wilpons are PART of the problem. We just also know that they aren’t going anywhere and blaming people and firing them hasn’t worked yet. We also know that if you do it the right way the Mets can win without spending like Omar’s Mets. It just takes a little more time.
Seriously it’s not like the Mets payroll is in the dumpster. They are still above the mean.
Pacific NorthTex
9/20/2012-11:23pm at 11:23 pm (UTC -4)
I disagree. I think maybe a coach or two will go (unfortunately not Warthen), but Terry will live out his contract and then be reassigned afterwards within the organization. If they aren’t adding salary, they aren’t paying 2 managers.
darknova306
9/21/2012-1:43am at 1:43 am (UTC -4)
I really hate the idea of a team quitting, and think it’s super lazy to just say they quit as a way of explaining a team being lousy, but wow… if there ever was a game to make you really believe it, tonight was it. And those comments by Collins after the game. Damn.
So what do you do to change that? They’ve been changing the manager and coaches, but the team is still always lousy in the second half. We really may just need to wait several years until player development and drafting and creative trades have yielded a better team. This one certainly isn’t getting it done anytime soon…
Trs86
9/21/2012-5:39am at 5:39 am (UTC -4)
Yeah that was my point, we have fired almost all that can be fired and almost turned over the roster. Time to fix instead of blame.
I mean he’ll the reds are good and look at their manager.
wanny
9/20/2012-11:24pm at 11:24 pm (UTC -4)
can fire jeffy.
and rome wasnt rebuilt in a day. sandy is trying to do it the right way — throgh the draft and with financial sanity — but this is not the most patient market.
Stickguy
9/21/2012-8:16am at 8:16 am (UTC -4)
you’ll never get there by doing nothing and just waiting for picks to arrive. You have to aggressively go out and bring in more talent when you can, and convert any excess at a position into something else that you need.
And if that (draft and fiscal sanity) is actually the plan, then they need to trade aging ML assets for a bulk of young talent. Which means dickey and Wright, get traded. If they keep them both, there is not sanity plan. just treading water.
TRS86
9/21/2012-8:19am at 8:19 am (UTC -4)
While true, it also depends on the direction you are headed and the return. You have cash to spend and you are most likely not going to get a better 3B than Wright so you have to consider re-signing him as long as the contract fits. If not then yeah gotta trade him.
A team built on speed and defense that stops worrying about hitting for power? Wright can be a huge part of that.
wanny
9/21/2012-9:52am at 9:52 am (UTC -4)
How do you stop worrying about hitting for power?
It’s not 1982 and the Mets don’t play in the old astroturf Busch Stadium.
Power hitting sort of helps you score runs. Would you take 9 Juan Pierres over 9 Adam Dunns? Doubtful.
And the Mets are closer to being built on power than they are on speed.
TRS86
9/21/2012-10:01am at 10:01 am (UTC -4)
How do you stop? Your power hitters hit for power, I didn’t say get rid of all power hitters. I am saying that our foundation should be guys like Wright (not saying Wright in general) but guys who can get you 15-20 HR, steal some bases and play good defense. Do that and the rest will take care of itself. Get back to focusing on pitching, speed and defense and then fill in from there instead of pigeon holing a bunch of heavy swingers who can’t play defense or clog up the bases.
As for a team of Dunn or Piere’s? It’s moot anyway because they both would suck.
wanny
9/21/2012-10:55am at 10:55 am (UTC -4)
Who is suggesting that the Mets pigeon hole heavy swingers who can’t play defense?
TRS86
9/21/2012-12:13pm at 12:13 pm (UTC -4)
I don’t know, ask Duda?
wanny
9/21/2012-12:22pm at 12:22 pm (UTC -4)
this administration did not even draft duda.
TRS86
9/21/2012-12:28pm at 12:28 pm (UTC -4)
Nope but they are the ones to put in in RF and are trying to decide now what to do with him.
wanny
9/21/2012-9:48am at 9:48 am (UTC -4)
I don’t agree that you’ll never get there by waiting for picks (and international signings) to arrive. Tampa Bay?
But I do agree that you should be trying to compile talent any way possible. But without any money to spend it’s not that easy to compile talent.
Though I probably lean in favor of trading Wright and Dickey, it is not an easy call for a lot of reasons. Not the least of which is that Wright’s age and Dickey’s knuckleballdom might make them still valuable players when the kids arrive. Another reason is that it helps the kids who arrive to have good veteran leaders and some players to keep the team respectable while they learn.
TRS86
9/21/2012-10:02am at 10:02 am (UTC -4)
True, the problem becomes that by not trading guys like Dickey and Wright you actually have to wait longer to build the system and increase the overall talent of the organization.
Pacific NorthTex
9/21/2012-10:17am at 10:17 am (UTC -4)
That or the Wilpons somehow unearth Scrooge McDucks vault of cash and are able to increase the payroll, even if only up to 120 Mil a seasons. You could trade for one Upton and Sign the other, which would theoretically increase the payroll 15 million or so (don’t have the numbers in front of me), Extend both RA and David and get back to being competitive right away. But unfortunately, all the exercises we are involved in now for correcting the team involves no influx of cash.
Why not sell another $20 million dollar share to bridge the payroll and then not have to do too much in 2014 when Santana and Bay are off the books? I kid about that, but then again…
srt
9/21/2012-11:26am at 11:26 am (UTC -4)
The Wilpons are nickle diming us to death.
Their idea of wanting to hold onto the team – to be the Wilpon family sole ownership – included selling 20 MIL investor chunks to a limited number of people. Cash brought in but no say in running the team. That cash only got them out out declaring bankruptcy in the 2012 season.
What happens for 2013? With down revenues once again, they’ll likely have to slash the payroll even further. And I don’t think they care. They’ll wait it out – as long as it takes – if and when the team is competitive again and is bringing in profits.
Short of that, the only way to turn it around quicker is bring in a legitimate money partner. A solution they’ve been unwilling to do thus far. They came close with Einhorn but pulled the plug at the last minute.
As long as the Mets remain cash strapped, I just don’t see much changing. Not unless they get lucky and the shuffling of deck chairs coupled with the few prospects coming up (like Harvey and Wheeler) somehow produce a team that competes deep into September sooner rather than later.
gategem
9/21/2012-11:08am at 11:08 am (UTC -4)
If you look at the aggregate history of the Rays and Devil Rays then Tampa Bay’s first winning record occurred in 2008 after 10 years of sub .500 baseball and finishing in last place 9 out of those 10 years. Do you think most Mets fans are willing to wait 10 years?
Pacific NorthTex
9/21/2012-12:24pm at 12:24 pm (UTC -4)
4 down, 6 to go!
wanny
9/21/2012-12:25pm at 12:25 pm (UTC -4)
Tampa started behind the 8 ball as an expansion franchise with no farm system to rely upon. Then, early on, they drafted poorly (and had bad luck with two very good picks): wilder, standridge, no first round pick in 1998, josh hamilton, rocco baldelli, dewon brazelton. then things began to pick up with bj upton, etc.
just to look at 1st round picks.
but the mets should not take as long as the rays because this rebuild started with harvey, flores, tejada, etc. already in the system.
TRS86
9/21/2012-12:29pm at 12:29 pm (UTC -4)
And they turned a lame duck into the top prospect in the system.
wanny
9/21/2012-12:42pm at 12:42 pm (UTC -4)
Harvey sure has looked like a good place to start. And Wheeler is supposed to be better!
That said, trading Wright still seems more plausible to me than Dickey for two reasons. 1) Wright gets a greater a return (I really like David and wish it made sense for him to stay). 2) Though SP is perceived a strength for the Mets (which is just relative), it would not be a strength without Dickey and then Gee and Santana are big question marks. Having Dickey around will keep the pressure off of Wheeler and Harvey to be the aces before their time.
gategem
9/21/2012-6:31pm at 6:31 pm (UTC -4)
The Mets started in 1962 and won it all in 1969; the Marlins started in 1993 and by 1997 they won it all but they also used free agents to help; the Rockies started in 1993 and were in the playoffs by 1997. But the best analogy was when Frank Cashen took over the Mets. The farm system was totally decimated by previous ownership and Cashen said it was like taking over an expansion franchise. He rebuilt the franchise and with excellent draft choices and shrewd trading rebuilt the team rather quickly.