Sandy Alderson clearly is a very accomplished man. Dartmouth, a tour of duty in Vietnam as a Marine, Harvard Law, and a successful career as a lawyer. He joined the A’s as general counsel due to his connection to a partner at his law firm, and eventually became their GM in 1983. With Alderson at the helm, the A’s became a serious powerhouse, winning three pennants in a row from 1988-1990, including the 1989 World Series. Three consecutive pennants is a rare achievement; only the 1998-2001 Yankees have done it since.
Alderson inherited Jose Canseco and Rickey Henderson (who he traded away and then re-acquired), but was GM when the A’s drafted Mark McGwire, and trading for Dennis Eckersley and signing the little-known Dave Stewart as a free agent were great moves. Alderson also traded for Dave Parker and Bob Welch, signed Dave Henderson, and put together a fantastic team.
However, after five winning seasons in a row and four playoff appearances from 1988-1992, the A’s fell off the cliff in 1993, finishing 68-94, and had losing seasons for the five remaining seasons in Alderson’s tenure.
Alderson then worked in the Commissioner’s office until 2005, when he was named CEO of the Padres. The Padres—with a team Alderson clearly inherited—finished first in 2005 and 2006, missed the postseason in 2007, and were also-rans in the final two years of Alderson’s time in San Diego.
After another year working with the Commissioner, at the behest of Bud Selig, Alderson took the job as GM of the Mets in October 2010, and while fans were mostly thrilled at first, after two years of Alderson’s leadership, it is time to begin questioning his abilities as a GM.
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Alderson did not grow up in the game; he did not play professionally, nor did he manage at any level. His career was as a lawyer until being named A’s GM. After the era when the A’s had the kind of payroll which allowed him to acquire players of consequence and keep his own stars, Alderson did not adapt well. The A’s went downhill quickly after their golden period, bottoming out at 65 wins in Alderson’s last year.
It is hard to know what he really did in San Diego, but that’s not the case with the Mets.
Everyone rightly commends the Beltran-Wheeler trade; Alderson received a top prospect from a team that has developed a bunch of excellent pitchers in recent years. But this was not finding a diamond in the rough or an “undervalued” player; it was holding out and perhaps driving a hard bargain–or maybe just getting very lucky with a team that felt they were one player away.
But we also have seen acquisitions such as Brad Emaus and Chin-Lung Hu be fairly highly touted. Alderson gave Frank Francisco a fairly sizeable two-year deal and anointed him as closer, although he had never had much success in the role, nor done it full-time for an entire season. We have seen a parade of mediocre fill-in starting pitchers, and journeymen like Jon Rauch given key bullpen roles. D.J. Carrasco was awarded a two-year deal and was abominable.
While many—this writer included—were not fans of Angel Pagan, the trade for Torres and Ramirez wound up as a disaster. Pagan had a productive year for a title team and earned a big contract, while Torres was mostly terrible and Ramirez was very mediocre.
Scott Hairston did have a good—far from great—2012 with 20 HR, but with a .299 OBP and very limited abilities in the field. He also was barely useful in 2011.
In the 2011 draft, the 13th pick was used on a player who due to growing up in Wyoming did not play high school baseball, Brandon Nimmo, who in his brief professional career has done little to justify the choice. According to Wikipedia, no Wyoming player had ever been selected higher than the 6th round previously. 2012’s 1st round pick Gavin Cecchini—while it is far too early to definitively judge—has yet to look very good either. And when it comes to the minor leagues, considering the amazing lack of offense in the system, allowing Fernando Martinez to get away for nothing also is a question mark move.
Letting Jose Reyes leave as a free agent rather than trading him was also very questionable. Yes, Reyes had injury issues, and it is certainly possible that management insisted on keeping this very popular player around while he was chasing a batting title in order to help sell tickets during a dismal period. Regardless, this does not speak highly of the front office. And as one cannot really blame him too harshly for not matching the Dodgers’ offer to Chris Capuano, this is a player who would have come in handy in 2012.
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So after two full years, and with nothing done thus far to improve the team for 2013, it is utterly reasonable to begin asking just what exactly has Alderson done for this team?
As we approach 2013, the team has some good players—Ike Davis, David Wright, Ruben Tejada, R.A. Dickey, Jon Niese, Matt Harvey, Johan Santana, Dillon Gee, and Bobby Parnell. All of them inherited from the previous regime.
Many believe that Alderson was the father of “Moneyball”- a wizard at finding undervalued players. If this is so, where are they after two years?
To be fair, Alderson inherited a very difficult situation, and by his own words came here largely at the behest of Selig to help a franchise in distress try to manage a terrible time in the wake of the Madoff scandal. The Mets’ minor league system was left in middling shape by Omar Minaya, and Omar’s terrible contracts—compounded by the Madoff situation and the overall economy—definitely left the next Met GM a truly disastrous and difficult platter of troubles.
But if Alderson (and his assistants, failed former GMs Paul DePodesta and J.P. Ricciardi) truly are very wise baseball men, where is the evidence after two years? Shouldn’t three once highly-touted former GMs have been able to accomplish something more tangible after two years? Again, Wheeler might turn into a stud pitcher, but he was not an unknown/undervalued player—he was highly regarded and the skill in getting him simply resided in being patient and waiting for the Giants to cave; an excellent move, to be sure, but one which has little company on the shelf of Alderson-era Met triumphs.
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Clearly, regardless of what the rosy-eyed optimists might believe, the Wilpons have put a very strict financial harness on this team. From laying off office workers to failing to sign draft picks to dramatically cutting payroll, the evidence of financial desperation is clearly visible for all who want to see it.
But if Alderson and his team are such great baseball minds, why haven’t they been able to find any bargains? Any diamonds in the rough? Someone in the Rule 5 draft? An undervalued minor league free agent?
It just has not happened.
And as the Winter Meetings have come and gone and Met fans have watched the serious, successful type of teams out there making moves to improve themselves, frustration again sets in.
Sure, it can be argued—as it was by some when the 2012 trade deadline came and went with no action following Alderson’s “We’re buyers!” exclamation—that there is little to be done; that the team should basically sacrifice 2013, wait—again—for money to come off the books in anticipation that this time it might be spent, and to possibly accept trading Cy Young winner and very popular Met R.A. Dickey for a less-than-blue chip prospect such as Mike Olt or players from Toronto not named Travis d’Arnaud.
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The feeling here—and this writer was very happy when Alderson was named—is that we may again be being sold a bill of goods.
Sandy Alderson—if he was indeed at the forefront of the great moves which turned the A’s into champs—seems to either be well past his prime, bored and disinterested, or simply not up to the job. His humor was ingratiating at first, but the more recent slams at his own outfield seem to be somewhat ill-considered. Some of us have been following this team for decades, support it with our hearts, minds, and wallets, and to hear someone who clearly is a short-timer here with lukewarm enthusiasm continue to denigrate his own players, following another lackluster 4th place finish, is growing tiresome.
Most of us want to believe that Alderson is in fact a great baseball mind, but aside from a few years in Oakland—again, helped by excellent inherited players and a high payroll—the man’s baseball resume is in fact pretty thin. He presided over the quick demise of the A’s, had an executive job with the perennially mediocre Padres, and really has done next to nothing to improve the Mets in two full years.
Again, he has little to work with in terms of money or trade chips, but someone with the reputation he arrived with for baseball brilliance and revolutionary thinking should have been able to find at least a couple of players who could be difference makers, shouldn’t he have?
Is this unreasonable to expect?
Where is the Mets’ trade for a scrap-heap reclamation project like Dennis Eckersley? Where’s our journeyman-waiting-for-stardom like Dave Stewart?
Is Alderson working long days scouring stat sheets, the waiver wire, and the minor leagues to find our undervalued diamonds in the rough? Or is he simply putting the best possible public face on the Wilpons’ diminishing of the Met franchise, as a favor for a few years for his friend Bud Selig?
Is the team in the hands of fired GMs DePodesta and Ricciardi? And is the increasingly vocal Jeff Wilpon really moving closer to center stage? Nelson Doubleday warned against this eventually happening, and a look at Wilpon the Younger’s barely extant resume most definitely does not inspire confidence.
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Sandy Alderson is a lawyer; that is what his education prepared him to be. He came to baseball in his mid-30s, again, first as a lawyer. He became GM of a franchise on the verge of success, inheriting good players and supportive management with deep pockets; he presided over wise moves which resulted in three pennants and a title. But as soon as the older players declined and payroll shrunk, the team quickly sank. This is not a Frank Cashen, an executive who worked his way up and had a key role in building title teams with two franchises, or a Whitey Herzog, a baseball lifer who had huge roles in the successes of multiple organizations.
The feeling here is that Alderson is neither dishonest nor incompetent; nor was he brought in to turn the Mets into a “small market” or “Moneyball” team. He’s a lawyer—he was brought in to do what lawyers often do: to put the best possible face onto a very bad situation and to convince as many people as possible that things are much better than they really are.
Sure, it took Cashen until his fifth year in Flushing before the Mets became serious contenders. Minaya had the team in the playoffs in year two, but largely due to arriving just as Wright and Reyes blossomed and being given an insane bag of money with which to bring in Pedro, Beltran, Delgado, and others.
So it certainly is fair for some to believe that in a couple of years, the foundation currently being built will result in an extended period of success.
But it also is very reasonable to view the accomplishments thus far—trades, signings, drafts, minor leagues—as a track record without much reason for optimism at all.
Regardless of what anyone wants to believe, Alderson’s record thus far is one of serious mediocrity. Aside from hoping that the last two draft classes turn into gold, there is very, very little to latch onto as evidence of success after two years of what was originally portrayed as a management dream team.
What to do? Patience seems to be the only real route being open to the Met fan right now. It is still over two months until spring training, moves are yet to be made, and hopefully 2013 will be more promising than the last two years. Should the rotation remain together and healthy, it has the potential to be something special. Should Ike, Tejada, and Wright all play well and the rotation achieves its potential, there is the possibility for improvement. But these are some big ifs.
Yes, we are again being told that “next year” we will be able to spend the money that comes off the books when Johan and Bay’s commitments are largely gone; but yes, we have heard this song before. Will spending really increase in 2014? No, spending does not guarantee anything, as the Minaya era surely glaringly shows. But if the team had some extra money to spend to bring in, say, Pierzynski, that could make a difference. The catcher position is really atrocious, and A.J. would bring offense, winning experience, and sorely needed toughness to the team.
But we digress.
Perhaps in a year’s time we will see a team with a great rotation, watch Nimmo and Cecchini break into Baseball America’s top 100 list, and witness an active Met braintrust at the 2013 Winter Meetings.
But right now what we have seen thus far is a continuing very lackluster performance by a 65-year-old man possibly long past his prime, in a job he appears to have reluctantly taken and to not be particularly fond of.
The jury remains out, but the verdict seems to be very predictable.
168 comments
Stick
12/9/2012-2:07pm at 2:07 pm (UTC -4)
good thing I had the big bag of popcorn here. This was a 2-beer tome.
some random comments, then my thoughts;
- wasn’t Cashen an ad man or accountant before getting into baseball (so another guy that was not a “real” BB guy?)
- DJ was not good, but the money really was chump change. Barely above minimum wage, and cheap for a FA. Not sure why they went 2 years, but it seemed like more years at less money for whatever reason.
- The money/WIlpon factor is way bigger an issue than they want to let on. And for any GM/FO, having to work on a shoestring with owner baggage hanging over them has to be difficult.
anyway, my (totally my guess) opinion? Sandy was the condition for Selig letting the wilpons violate all the debt rules and repayment terms. But, and this is the key, his role was to fix the organizational financial mess, and straighten the place out. Problem though is his mission was really the COO job, and Jeffy was ensconced there. So, Sandy was handed the GM job. And my guess, J.P. came along to be the defacto GM.
So I think Sandy never wanted to be GM, and has no interest in the job, and does nothing related to finding talent, working the phones, planning, etc. That is left to the “people” (JP? Ricco? Jeffy?) who range from bad at it to completely unqualified. Oh, and Sandy IMO is bailing ASAP.
JP? he works remote from Mass, and odds are is cashing a paycheck and putting minimal effort in (hell, he probably has a side job). So really, there is no sharp mine spending lots of time analyzing data, researching players, or anything like that.
I also really think now that jeffy is over whatever “time out” he was in, and is actually taking over more than he might have before. And that is why J.P. was extended, because Sandy was doing him a solid, and Jeffy looks at him like an easy patsy (Omar v2.0) that will take the heat when needed, but not stand up to the real boss. And that will not end well.
So, Sandy was only focused on damage control and financial structuring. That seems to be largely done, so we are at stasis (the 100mill payroll cap). But he still is not doing any real heavy duty GM work.
I really think the only thing that might have worked (given we are stuck with the Wilpons) was if Jeffy got “promoted” (stick him in the real estate arm?), Sandy came in as the COO, and he brought in a legit, hot shot, GM up and comer (the next Daniels or the dude in Tampa).
so, to recap, Sandy is not a viable GM at this point in time. And his “back up” (JP and Jeffy) are not worth crap. And the Wilpons are still scuffling for $ and the team is massively over-leveraged. So we are screwed for the foreseeable future.
srt
12/9/2012-2:12pm at 2:12 pm (UTC -4)
I should have read your comment first.
What you said….only better than I did…..
kingman 26
12/9/2012-2:25pm at 2:25 pm (UTC -4)
Cashen was a sportswriter for a major paper for almost 20 years; he was always closely involved with baseball.
Stick
12/9/2012-3:24pm at 3:24 pm (UTC -4)
still a vast difference to that and actually working in a FO and making personnel decisions. Heck, you could argue that some bloggers are qualified based on that.
still better than a lawyer, though Sandy’s background should make him a good choice for running the business end, if not the player side. Which is why it is a team operation in the FO.
kingman 26
12/9/2012-3:32pm at 3:32 pm (UTC -4)
Well, being a sportswriter in a major city with major sports teams for 20 years is a hell of a better training ground for a baseball front office than being a lawyer.
PS–I really do largely agree with your remarks above.
But 2/2.4 for Carrasco was bad news.
Stick
12/9/2012-3:50pm at 3:50 pm (UTC -4)
it ended up bad, but again, still relative chump change.
but another case of a guy coming to the mets, and falling off a cliff (See Bay, Jason).
the 3 prior years, DJ had an ERA+ of 117, 125, 112. With real ERAs of 3.68-3.96.
for a team with serious pen needs and no money, at 1.2mill/year (nothing that can break the team), it was worth a shot.
gategem
12/9/2012-3:55pm at 3:55 pm (UTC -4)
And a Happy Holidays to you too, sir.
Stick
12/9/2012-2:10pm at 2:10 pm (UTC -4)
real quick follow-up:
My plan? Well, it was trade dickey and wright. But, I can live with the DW deal now. Still think they should trade dickey if they can get an impact bat+, if not, get him extended ASAP.
then, sign AJP to catch. fills multiple holes at one time. Then fill out pen with young live arms, and get a RH corner bat (hairston if nothing better).
Finally, I want Carlos GOmez, though being a rental is a problem, and I highly doubt they can extend him now (Boras client).
Q-Rod
12/9/2012-2:53pm at 2:53 pm (UTC -4)
Based on current web chatter, do you see anything out there worth considering for Dickey? Olt? Gose? Which if these two guys would you prefer as the key ‘get’ for Dickey?
Stick
12/9/2012-3:30pm at 3:30 pm (UTC -4)
good question. I admit to not having time to do exhaustive research, so I have to base it on what other people write about these guys.
But I tend to not believe much of the chatter (and expect something to pop that no one mentioned).
But I don’t care for Arencibia at all. Gose could be a good piece. Olt and Myers of course are the “big name” guys but are they in play or not? I say yes, because when they are in that many rumors, something is behind it.
I would be happy to see 1 real high end guy if they could, or a couple of solid pieces like Gose.
TX
12/9/2012-4:12pm at 4:12 pm (UTC -4)
Olt over Gose. I personally wanted JPA, Gose and a lower A ball prospect, as they are not going to move D’Arnaud for anyone. Olt + another would be good too.
srt
12/9/2012-2:10pm at 2:10 pm (UTC -4)
Well written article on this.
‘So after two full years, and with nothing done thus far to improve the team for 2013, it is utterly reasonable to begin asking just what exactly has Alderson done for this team?’
Answer? He saved the team for the Wilpons, which I believe was the #1 goal. As to what he’s done for the team….probably a little too early to tell.
You’d have to be a genius to improve the club from one year to the next while having to slash $50 MIL from the payroll b/c the owners couldn’t afford to operate the team. That and if what we’re reading is true (SA wanted to trade Wright, ownership wanted him signed – same with Dickey only the opposite), how much is on him and how much is on the Wilpons?
Stick
12/9/2012-3:33pm at 3:33 pm (UTC -4)
I do think they did a lousy job at filling the holes that did have to be filled.
and a big part of the problem (and again, I peg this fully on the owners). They are not going for it (that takes money) but the FO was not allowed to rebuild either. So they were trying to walk the tightrope of contending on a shoestring while rebuilding.
EDS used to have a commercial where they were building a plane while it was flying. That is what this feels like.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2zqTYgcpfg
Pedro13
12/9/2012-2:12pm at 2:12 pm (UTC -4)
I understand your frustration. However in the “economic climate” we’re all in Alderson and staff have been severely hamstrung by the Madoff mess. That seems to be clearing up now but still a long way to go. Anyone who didn’t think the Pagen for Ramirez/Torres deal wasn’t good when it happened isn’t being truthful.
I looked up the 2005 and 2006 teams Sandy “inherited” in SD. I wasn’t sure how you could inherit a team after being there for two seasons. I’ll give you 2005.
The 2006 team was in no way inherited. Alderson’s staff signed Piazza (22/68/.283/.843 ops), Woody Williams (12-5, 3.65era) traded for Adrian Gonzales (24/82/.304/.862), Chris Young (11-5, 3.46 era) and Mike Cameron (22/83/.268/.837. That a heck of a job if you ask me.
kingman 26
12/9/2012-2:19pm at 2:19 pm (UTC -4)
Thank you for reading!
If 2006 was a “heck of a job” why have the Padres not made the postseason since?
And the Pagan trade was a complete disaster; this is my point–where is the evidence of the ability of any of our three GMs to find talent?
Stick
12/9/2012-3:39pm at 3:39 pm (UTC -4)
at the time, I believe the majority of people were either OK or indifferent to the deal. Mostly Pagan was not liked, and the pen needed serious help (and that deal was always pagan for Ramirez). if they both repeated 2011, it would have been a steal for the Mets.
torres was always just a filler to hold the fort until Kirk was ready.
Pagan also rode 1 huge month and 1 other a bit above average one to offset 3 castillo-level ones. The had a respectable year overall, but lets not put him up there with Beltran in 2005.
My bigger issue? If they were trading established guys they should have been going for prospects, and signing lower priced FAs to short deals to fill out the roster.
greggofboken
12/9/2012-2:41pm at 2:41 pm (UTC -4)
Very well written. I’ve not yet come to the same conclusions you have and believe some positives aren’t taken into account here.
What of the signings of Capuano and Byrdak? What of the extension of Niese? And the serious bargain gotten on R.A. Dickey’s current extension? And what of Collins? The unloading of K-Rod? These may be modest successes, but they are successes in my view.
For my money, it’s too soon to pass judgment on the drafts — though his draft record in Oakland isn’t particularly strong.
The wisdom of keeping or trading Wright and Dickey will largely define his success — and it’s too soon to tell here. Were I to grade his work to date, I would grade him at a C+.
kingman 26
12/9/2012-3:27pm at 3:27 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks for reading, and very fair comments.
I am not as enamored of Collins as I used to be; cannot see why he was playing Torres and Fred Lewis, and the team collapsed yet again. Surely mostly due to lack of talent, but it’s been too many years of that.
Stick
12/9/2012-3:51pm at 3:51 pm (UTC -4)
another aspect of not having a clear plan on rebuilding.
wanny
12/9/2012-3:10pm at 3:10 pm (UTC -4)
Highly unfair to nimmo and cecchini.
kingman 26
12/9/2012-3:28pm at 3:28 pm (UTC -4)
I think something like 12-15 Wyoming non-high schoolers have been drafted in history, none higher than 6th round, and I think scouts did not have Nimmo in the top 30-40 prospects.
trs86
12/9/2012-4:13pm at 4:13 pm (UTC -4)
Nice article but not true on Nimmo. MANY had him going in yhe middle of the first. Including BA who predicted the Mets.
kingman 26
12/9/2012-4:16pm at 4:16 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks Chief.
I saw somewhere he was also ranked lower, but did not heavily research it which is why I did not put it in the article!
For you sir, only carefully researched items go in the actual articles!
wanny
12/9/2012-4:18pm at 4:18 pm (UTC -4)
Correct. He was a consensus 1st rounder and has acquitted himself very nicely with. And advanced approach at the plate
kingman 26
12/9/2012-7:39pm at 7:39 pm (UTC -4)
“Baseball America ranked Nimmo among the 50 top prospects for the 2011 draft, at No. 35.”
wanny
12/9/2012-8:54pm at 8:54 pm (UTC -4)
I just googled 2011 mlb mock draft and every one of them had nimmo in rd 1. go look.
the rankings you talk about are not draft projections. signability, positional considerations, etc (teams usually will draft up the middle as a priority) are not necessarily considered.
and saying 35 is not a first rounder is splitting hairs. the difference between player 15 and 35 is anyone’s guess.
kingman 26
12/9/2012-9:06pm at 9:06 pm (UTC -4)
Fair enough and I have never pretended to be a draft expert.
But there may be a reason Wyoming players are almost never drafted and the highest was a 6th rounder decades ago.
Perhaps Nimmo is the notable exception.
wanny
12/9/2012-9:12pm at 9:12 pm (UTC -4)
fingers crossed!
have a good night and thanks for provoking thought!
and have a drink for tx!
kingman 26
12/9/2012-10:28pm at 10:28 pm (UTC -4)
You are so very welcome and thank you for being here.
And I have had bourbon AND tequila for Tex tonight!
wanny
12/9/2012-4:19pm at 4:19 pm (UTC -4)
Not easy using the mobile site.
wanny
12/9/2012-3:12pm at 3:12 pm (UTC -4)
And the draft was the only real way for SA to get talent. Beltran was his only trade chip besides and injured at the deadline Reyes and now dickey.
LongTimeFan
12/9/2012-3:37pm at 3:37 pm (UTC -4)
I think it blatantly obvious Alderson is in over his head in MLB player acquisition and dealing with the market at the Big League level. He’s stuck in the 1980′s, fails to seize opportunities when presented, and can be rather arrogant when challenged by someone who pisses him off.
Simply put, his job title is too expansive, and I think should have been limited to organizational matters, where he can use his lawyer-speak till the cows come home, and not be in position to approach player acquisition as akin to dealing with inanimate objects, I think his approach is cold, such as the way he dealt with Reyes and now RA Dickey.
I think the Mets would be better served with Alderson out the door, and replaced by someone with far better people skills who understands what it takes to do business with other GM’s and major league players in today’s world, not the1980′s.
Stick
12/9/2012-3:43pm at 3:43 pm (UTC -4)
they would be much off with Jeffy sent to the Shanghai branch of the empire, Sandy promoted to COO, and a guy like Daniels brought in to be the wheel and deal GM. Just focus on player/team building and player development, and let Sandy take care of the business side.
LongTimeFan
12/9/2012-4:49pm at 4:49 pm (UTC -4)
I think Alderson is the stumbling block far more than the Wilpons. Alderson came to the Mets with a small market mentality and with the exception of David Wright’s contract, continues to think and operate that way.
It’s Alderson who’s lowballing R.A., while Jeff Wilpon publicly says he believes a deal can be made in the middle.
It’s Alderson who cannot bear departing with any young player under team control for years to come. We’re now into offseason #3, and Alderson has yet to show any willingness whatsoever to ship out a young player with perceived upside, He reminds me of a hoarder – collecting players, uncomfortable with risk and seizing opportunity. Alderson operates in a vaccum, paralysis by analysis om his terms.
For instance, he had opportunity this spring training to sign the very willing Dickey to very modest extension but opted not to do so. So now he lowballs him at what would have been far more than Dickey would have received had he signed him last offseason or spring training. The price of waiting has now doubled.
Stick
12/9/2012-5:08pm at 5:08 pm (UTC -4)
I agree about the hoarder comment, but not necessarily the reason why. I think it has to do with no budget, and attempting to rebuild when you are not actually allowed to.
and I don’t by the “small market” mentality. What exactly does that mean? do you really think that he does not want any big name players, or that the owners told him he can spend, but he refuses to? Back in the day, his A’s did lead the league in payroll, until the new owner came in and took away the checkbook.
small market teams operate a certain way because of low budget payrolls. Not because of some philosophy, so if Sandy is operating that way it is because that is the hand he has dealt.
remember the “moneyball with money” comment?
kingman 26
12/9/2012-7:38pm at 7:38 pm (UTC -4)
“It’s Alderson who’s lowballing R.A., while Jeff Wilpon publicly says he believes a deal can be made in the middle. ”
Glad to have you here, but this is an incredibly naive viewpoint.
If you really believe the Wilpons want to spend more and Sandy is the obstacle, well, that is just plain ridiculous.
In fact, there have been reports of exactly the opposite, that Sandy opposed the insane Wright deal and badly wants to re-sign R.A.
srt
12/10/2012-2:52pm at 2:52 pm (UTC -4)
This.
wanny
12/9/2012-4:16pm at 4:16 pm (UTC -4)
Cold to Reyes? Miami warmed him up with a ridiculous sum of money.
LongTimeFan
12/9/2012-5:01pm at 5:01 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, very cold to Reyes. Never even bothered meeting with him personally, never bothered making an offer. Sandy was not serious about bringing him back, just went through the motions, and was even bad at that.
Stick
12/9/2012-5:09pm at 5:09 pm (UTC -4)
I think he was serious that they wanted him back, but only up to what they thought he was worth (the amount that they told the agent they were looking at). Once Miami blew that away, they were done.
But no, I don’t think Sandy (and of course, the owners) were in love with the guy, or broken hearted when he left.
wanny
12/9/2012-5:21pm at 5:21 pm (UTC -4)
which seat did you have in the room?
gategem
12/9/2012-4:52pm at 4:52 pm (UTC -4)
Davey Johnson and Jim Leyland did not appear to have difficulties handling today’s players.
Stick
12/9/2012-4:59pm at 4:59 pm (UTC -4)
Collins is not very good. in many ways.
gategem
12/9/2012-8:24pm at 8:24 pm (UTC -4)
Jim Leyland is 67. Davey Johnson is 69. TC is 63. So you don’t consider TC a good manager because of his age. Then extending your definition both Johnson and Leyland must be among the worst managers in the history of the game.
Stick
12/9/2012-10:14pm at 10:14 pm (UTC -4)
whoa there chief. I said nothing about his age. IMO, Terry is a poor manager because he manages poorly. Would not matter if he was 30 or 90 I would feel the same way.
gategem
12/9/2012-11:23pm at 11:23 pm (UTC -4)
Your response was to my statement that was in response to SA’s so called problem with handling young players by LongTimeFan. I never mentioned TC so your statement in response to my age rebuttal clearly could only be interpreted as I did.
Stick
12/9/2012-11:29pm at 11:29 pm (UTC -4)
I know feel like the aflac duck after he spoke to Yogi.
And way too complicated for me to follow all this, but take my comment exactly as it was written: I don’t think Collins is a particularly good manager, and I don’t actually know how old he is! Or care in the least.
gategem
12/10/2012-2:39pm at 2:39 pm (UTC -4)
Stick stop being so arrogant. If this train of thought confuses you I apologize and in the future will lower my standards for those that frequent this site. But indeed the indentation of a comment does reflect a train of thought. And the indentation of my original comment should indicate that it was in response to another poster’s comment about age related issues. I’m aware of your criticisms of TC and you have in the past made references to his age so my response was not out of line nor should it have been confusing.
gategem
12/10/2012-3:09pm at 3:09 pm (UTC -4)
Perhaps the severe age related issues I and others my age face in this country has made me a little too sensitive about this matter. So if I overreacted I do apologize and upon rereading my comment I can see how it could resemble a Yogi quote. I will say no more about this.
Stick
12/9/2012-4:39pm at 4:39 pm (UTC -4)
OT rant, but football today was horrible. Dallas and Washington pulling wins out of their arses, and I had to root for Philly, which makes me feel so dirty I may never recover.
now the Giants looking worse than last week, and a guaranteed lose 10 minutes into the game, at home vs. a lousy team? This is like 2007 (7 with 17). Gonna go from cruising to the division to bounced out of the freaking playoffs.
gategem
12/9/2012-4:47pm at 4:47 pm (UTC -4)
The Giants could very well end up in third place. The Bengals destroyed the Giants but constantly shot themselves in the foot in this game. RGIII is injured but some backup rookie QB leads the Skins to victory. When things like that start to happen you start to think that maybe this is the year of the Skins or Cowboys.
Stick
12/9/2012-4:57pm at 4:57 pm (UTC -4)
agreed. Plus, they both have the tiebreaker on the Giants, so they have to win the division outright.
But if the saints keep turning it over every offensive series, even the giants might win.
Looks like Bradshaw is out. Not good.
gategem
12/9/2012-4:41pm at 4:41 pm (UTC -4)
Kong, a well written piece. You should compile all your material and give it the title “Thoughts of a Disillusioned Mets Fan.”
I just think it’s too early to properly and fairly evaluate the FO performance. Considering the team SA inherited and the financial mess of ownership he deserves at least five years before a judgment is made.
LongTimeFan
12/9/2012-5:08pm at 5:08 pm (UTC -4)
A better GM would do better job with what he has including getting better coaches.
Stick
12/9/2012-5:11pm at 5:11 pm (UTC -4)
agreed. I really don’t think Sandy cared much for that aspect of the job, or at the beginning, even spent any time at it. It was not job 1, 2, or probably in the top 10.
kingman 26
12/9/2012-7:39pm at 7:39 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks Gate!
TX
12/9/2012-5:07pm at 5:07 pm (UTC -4)
Solid read, Kong. I should just have that as my standard openings after reading a Knog post.
I can certainly see your point of view. I’m not there yet. To me, it was always going to be about this offseason. If they could get creative or not to fill out the team without any money. It seems that they have given themselves some flexibility (Bay, Wright’s deal, etc.) so this is the make/break time for them.
Can they trade Dickey for Olt + another (or Myers or something along those lines), sign Lannan, sign AJP and find a reasonable OF option (via trade maybe? Gomez? the guy from ChiSox (De la Aneziabigbalabcdefghijk…)?), plus a BP guy or 2… If they could do that, I really do think they can make a run at a WC spot.
Miami is, well, Miami… Hotlanta has addressed some needs, but have lost plenty and their SP isn’t overly impressive. Filthy has certainly made some moves, but they need a lot of things to go right to make a deep run, with a weakened SP rotation, aging stars and suspect OF at this point. The Nats, well, I think it’s fair to say that they are going to be the consensus division winner. So, I do think if the team can get creative, they can be much better. But I guess that would require the team to start actually doing something…
Stick
12/9/2012-5:16pm at 5:16 pm (UTC -4)
creative went out the window when they put all their eggs in the Wright basket. That was it.
I really see no signs, after 3 years, that the FO has a creative bone in its collective body. and combine that with not having the balls to do anything big (hell, anything that might open them up for any blowback).
but can’t they do something to at least try a little bit? They freed up this payroll supposedly, so why not sign AJP for 2 years with some of it? Help the team a little bit? Not like there is any catcher of the future to block.
kingman 26
12/9/2012-7:40pm at 7:40 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks TX! And I hope things are great for you out there sir!
TX
12/10/2012-1:03am at 1:03 am (UTC -4)
Tell me when you are out this way. First whiskey is on me.
kingman 26
12/10/2012-8:20am at 8:20 am (UTC -4)
I am coming out for Xmas and will be there late morning Sun the 23rd—maybe that evening? Will email you…
darknova306
12/9/2012-6:49pm at 6:49 pm (UTC -4)
Wow, quite the read. Well presented and thought out argument, Kong.
I’d say it’s definitely fair to criticize Sandy, but I think the bad moves he’s made haven’t been nearly as detrimental as we’ve seen in the past. It’s not like we’ve seen Ollie/Castillo/Bay types of failures. Instead it’s Carrasco/Emaus/FatFrank.
On the other side of it, he also hasn’t found any real “lightning in a bottle” players yet. No Valentin, Tatis, etc.
And I’d still 100% make that Pagan trade again. Ramirez had a very good track record before the trade, and who knew Pagan would get his act together in SF? Ramirez tanking and Pagan excelling was one of those unpredictable baseball things. Good move at the time, but worked out horribly.
In the end, I think I’ll wait until Opening Day to really make a sweeping judgement of Alderson’s tenure. I thought from the beginning that was here to clean up the financial mess for the Wilpons and maybe to start making serious moves by 2013 or 2014. When I see what team he puts on the field in April of 2013, my mind should be 100% made up on how to judge him. If Wright and Dickey contracts are the only things done, we’ll know he was brought in 100% to save the Wilpons’ interest in the team, keep the two walking p.r. machines on the roster, and the future will be very bleak (and no, this team is NOT “closer than everybody thinks” without some sort of crazy miracle).
Stick
12/9/2012-6:58pm at 6:58 pm (UTC -4)
key point there. everything has been short term and small potatoes. So nothing that will ever help, but also nothing that you can say was going to cripple them (either trading something important away, or signing stiffs to nasty deals).
and no, DW is not a stiff. It might be a bad contract 5 years from now, but defend-able.
darknova306
12/9/2012-7:16pm at 7:16 pm (UTC -4)
DW’s contract is definitely defendable, I just think its sole purpose was to keep the annual attendance decline from accelerating while the team continues to wallow in 4th place mediocrity. There’s no talent coming through the system that makes me think this team will contend for years, so I’m still disappointed they didn’t trade Wright and Dickey to replenish the system.
Stick
12/9/2012-6:59pm at 6:59 pm (UTC -4)
oh, and he did have a couple good low budget guys. Capuano worked out, and takagoomy. So that was something.
darknova306
12/9/2012-7:12pm at 7:12 pm (UTC -4)
Somehow I completely forgot about Capuano.
wanny
12/9/2012-8:46pm at 8:46 pm (UTC -4)
young was a serviceable and a good value.
kingman 26
12/9/2012-7:41pm at 7:41 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks a lot Dark. I worked hard on this and the kind feedback is truly appreciated.
Matt M
12/9/2012-6:53pm at 6:53 pm (UTC -4)
I have a buddy who has railed against Sandy since day 1. I never agreed with him until this summer when he didn’t trade Hairston at the deadline and he passed on Joey Gallo in the amateur draft.
The man has done absolutley nothing for the major league roster. NOTHING. Not one fuching thing. His free agent signings have been awful and his drafting is questionable at best.
Sad to say, but we would have been better off with Rick Hahn or Josh Byrnes.
wanny
12/9/2012-8:33pm at 8:33 pm (UTC -4)
what would joey gallo do for the major league roster? do you know with certainty that he will be a better mlber than cecchini?
scouting reports on gallo suggested he may not hit enough to find his power. 38 times he was passed too. if you fault sandy for that, fault the rest of the league for passing on him too.
amazin_jessep
12/9/2012-7:54pm at 7:54 pm (UTC -4)
I personally have never seen a GM as scrutinized as Alderson. I’ve never seen a team make minor league signings and small moves that every team makes – turn into a major story like they seem to have become for Alderson.
I think you made a fair argument – a lot more sensible than most who would wish to say the exact same thing as your subject. But allow me to respond
His history prior to being a GM: I think the idea of being a “baseball man” is largely overrated. Jon Daniels to me is one of the best GM’s in the sport and he was not a baseball man either. He was a grad from Cornell in Applied Economics.
So I can’t really use where Sandy came from against him because in the year 2012, Alderson has almost 30 years of experience on the inside and that is nothing to be ignored.
I personally don’t think you’d hear from every possible source that he is very well respected if he wasn’t seen as “any good.”
I don’t think Steve Phillips for example would say “He is considered one of the brightest minds in baseball,” if he wasn’t a very good GM – do you?
You mention moves like Eamus and Hu… and that brings me back to the fans and media overdoing it. Eamus was a Rule 5 pick and yes I was excited about it because it appeared that he could be mlb ready and the way they got him was cheap (how they needed to). I didn’t know Hu was highly touted but if he was I gaurantee it was overhype by outsiders and not Alderson.
If every signing whether minor league or otherwise is talked about to no end, then you’re going to be judging him unfairly whether good or bad.
I follow other team blogs and I don’t see long threads of conversation about Rule 5 picks or MILB signs…
If you had a team that badly needed a strong middle reliever I still can’t fault him for the Pagan trade I am sorry. The history was there for Ramirez. He filled a desperate need but didn’t perform. I’m not sitting here blaming Omar Minaya for wanting Jason Bay on the Mets simply because Bay turned into a bush league hitter.
I think talking about Nimmo in either a positive or negative is foolish. Wake me in 2-3 years and we’ll talk.
I also disagree on Capuano. The Dodgers signed him to 2 years. What would Capuano’s role be with the Mets in 2013? He’d have none. He’d be a waste of a contract. And now the Dodgers probably need to get rid of him because they have 8 SP’s and 5 slots. Don’t forget as hot as Cappy started, he finished the 2nd half 3-8 with an almost 5 ERA.
Questioning where DePodesta is in this process is also misguided as his role centers mostly around the draft. He’s not making big league decisions. He’s in charge of the draft and the development process of said farm hands.
Your example of AJ Pierzynski to me is also foolish. You’re telling me with a young staff and young players you want to bring in a guy who is known as one of the most hated players in the clubhouse? Really?
You mention all the bad and ignore the good. What kind of success rate are you looking for? If you asked me today would I rather have Alderson or Amaro Jr. for example I’d take Alderson any day of the week.
You don’t mention Rule 5 pitcher Pedro Beato who had a very good 2011 campaign – a true rarity amongst Rule 5 players.
Signing Capuano, Signing Hairston, Signing Byrdak, Signing Isringhausen, Claiming Hefner, Claiming Baxter
Sure they didn’t turn into Dave Stewart but they were very useful in their roles and very much more signs of whether Alderson is useful rather than the Hu trade.
wanny
12/9/2012-8:29pm at 8:29 pm (UTC -4)
well done.
kingman 26
12/9/2012-8:46pm at 8:46 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks for reading, and a well thought out response.
But almost everything the team has accomplished for much of the last two years has been due to players here when Alderson arrived—citing Beato, Hairston, Byrdak, Izzy, Hefner, and Baxter as his list of successes is basically proving my point—these guys are largely filler for a 4th place team, not building blocks for sustained success.
If this list is what we have to show for two years of three supposedly really smart GMs, then we are indeed in precisely the position I suggest.
wanny
12/9/2012-8:56pm at 8:56 pm (UTC -4)
you don’t get building blocks for sustained success on the waiver wire and for the major league minimum.
he deserves credit for getting something out of nothing with these guys.
kingman 26
12/9/2012-9:02pm at 9:02 pm (UTC -4)
Well, you know I hugely respect your opinion and have for years, and perhaps I am expecting too much.
But again, I think that three former GMs put together to run this team over a two year period have accomplished very little thus far.
In two years, perhaps I will have been proven very, very wrong and I sincerely hope that this is the case.
wanny
12/9/2012-9:10pm at 9:10 pm (UTC -4)
i don’t necessarily disagree. I am just nitpicking some of the nitpicking criticisms.
The team is probably is in a better position now than before the gm trio but as much of that is related to 2014 financial flexibility caused by attrition than any transactions this group made.
They have some hits, i.e. wheeler, and some misses, i.e. francisco. But I do think the team is focused on acquiring guys of a particular skill set like Nimmo, Plawecki, etc., that will hopefully change the way players are developed in the system.
amazin_jessep
12/9/2012-9:28pm at 9:28 pm (UTC -4)
he has plenty to show for if you consider his owners were being sued for 25% of their worth up until recently and the team he was handed was short of several pieces as it was.
It’s not like he inherited a solid team. Here is something you never hear a team say
“We’re a catcher, Left Fielder, Center Fielder, Right Fielder, healthy starting rotation and a good bullpen away!”
Pair that with the farm, pair that with real financial problems and you have guys like Hairston being signings they needed to make.
And I’m sorry but most teams aren’t using the free agent market to build their team into a real winner. It’s happening through farm patience and trades with long term impact working out.
If you want miracles, tis the season. But to say he isn’t any good when all of his peers say otherwise doesn’t really work for me.
Do I think he’d be here if the Wilpon’s never had 2.5 years of financial doubt? No.
That’s EXACTLY why I think he is a good GM because not everybody could do it without a massive sell off like the Marlins did
kingman 26
12/9/2012-10:32pm at 10:32 pm (UTC -4)
Again, reasonable and fair and intelligent thoughts.
I am glad you are here and hope you visit often.
Thanks again for reading and commenting; while I certainly have strong opinions and do not totally agree here, I truly value intelligent and respectful differences of opinion.
darknova306
12/9/2012-11:26pm at 11:26 pm (UTC -4)
That’s an accurate and sobering summary of the organization’s status, jessep. They’re basically half a roster and a handful of ‘ifs’ away. Wilpon’s Folly + Omar’s House of Horrors = long term mediocrity.
srt
12/10/2012-8:27am at 8:27 am (UTC -4)
I agree with many of your points on the grading of SA so far.
Very hard to field a competitive team with slashing an unprecedented $50 MIL from one year to the next.
At best, it’s hard to grade SA one way or the other right now. Some depends on his drafts, which won’t be realized or answered for some years. I think the jury should still be out on him.
I will say this…he’s far from the worst GM this organization has ever seen – which is a claim I’ve seen from several Met fans.
Matt M
12/9/2012-8:10pm at 8:10 pm (UTC -4)
Meanwhile, the major league team is getting worse and the farm still stinks. What has he done again? (Other than Wheeler)
ColoradoMetsFan
12/9/2012-9:37pm at 9:37 pm (UTC -4)
New here on the recommendation of ChestRockwell at MetsBlog, Enjoyed the article and agree completely. It’s hard to pinpoint the dysfunction, so my take is that it’s a confluence of cross purposes. What’s suspect is that the FO has yet to put a real stamp on the organization, other than maintaining the appearance of a less successful major league team. Otherwise, we still seem to be selecting Steve Chilcott over Reggie Jackson, signing past-their-prime players to albatross contracts, and letting valuable assets exit without returning commensurate or excess value. But after all this time, I shouldn’t be surprised. It’s simply ingrained in the culture.
Stick
12/9/2012-10:22pm at 10:22 pm (UTC -4)
the only culture ingrained (if you want to use that word) is the ownership. The FO has turned over many times in the last 25 years, with the same dysfunction and lake or direction/focus, and the only constant has been the owners.
greggofboken
12/9/2012-10:57pm at 10:57 pm (UTC -4)
“Before he could arrive at the Lake Of Direction, young Omar first needed to navigate the Gulf Of Dysfunction”
It has kind of a Life Of Pi feel to it.
kingman 26
12/9/2012-10:34pm at 10:34 pm (UTC -4)
Hey Colorado! Just between you and me, I AM Mr. Rockwell!
Thanks so much for visiting and please don’t be a stranger!
And this is absolutely great:
“…we still seem to be selecting Steve Chilcott over Reggie Jackson, signing past-their-prime players to albatross contracts, and letting valuable assets exit without returning commensurate or excess value.”
Wow. Awesome.
ColoradoMetsFan
12/9/2012-10:57pm at 10:57 pm (UTC -4)
Thanks. Will definitely be back!
TX
12/9/2012-11:37pm at 11:37 pm (UTC -4)
Olt or Gose or extension.
greggofboken
12/9/2012-11:45pm at 11:45 pm (UTC -4)
I think Texas sweetens it, Toronto doesn’t, and Dickey’s a Ranger.
Q-Rod
12/9/2012-11:56pm at 11:56 pm (UTC -4)
Heh. I think the Mets have to be leary of trading their ace for a guy that’s going to have to switch position. I think unless the Rangers are willing to trade one of the SSs or seriously sweeten the Olt offer then the Mets will turn elsewhere – Toronto can sweeten a Gose deal with Arencibia. Detroit, California and Boston can all put together packages that fit the Mets needs better than Olt.
IMO.
TRS86
12/10/2012-8:47am at 8:47 am (UTC -4)
To me a package with Olt in it needs a lot less sweetening than a package with Goose and Arencibia doesn’t add much sugar.
TX
12/10/2012-1:11am at 1:11 am (UTC -4)
I hope so. I hope so..
Stick
12/9/2012-11:53pm at 11:53 pm (UTC -4)
Well, we now have an answer to the question of “is Myers available?”. Yes.
Lot of prospects going back for Shields, though I would have loved to see Davis on the Mets.
I still think DIckey should have been worth more, but I ain’t the KC GM, so that means Nada.
Q-Rod
12/9/2012-11:59pm at 11:59 pm (UTC -4)
At least we can hope that this move lights a fire under the other AL contenders.
TX
12/10/2012-1:09am at 1:09 am (UTC -4)
Royals gave up a bunch, but Davis and Shields are 2 solid pitchers. In the end, I really think that Dickey’s age worked against the team in the negotiations. His “not being signed beyond next year” is a formality. The Royals are not in a position to ever gamble. So they went with the young(er) option. I think they gave up a lot and I think a Dickey for Myers straight up trade could haver been worked out. Oh well….
Think on this. Who else but the Rangers know Dickey so well?
Prismo
12/10/2012-7:43am at 7:43 am (UTC -4)
This was a huge huge win for the rays! Rumor has it the royals didn’t really want Dickey, but they did want both Niese and Wheeler for a similar trade. Considering they’ll get Shields/Davis for 2 years but Niese/Wheeler for 5+ this is a joke. Dayton Moore has no idea what he’s doing. Shields isn’t even that great. They gave up three of their top 5 prospects!
srt
12/10/2012-8:30am at 8:30 am (UTC -4)
Kind of hard though to say this is a win for the Rays until those prospects ceilings are realized, or not – at least in my opinion.
Prismo
12/10/2012-9:07am at 9:07 am (UTC -4)
Yeah I definitely understand where you’re coming from. I’d say at the very least though, it would end up being a wash – if only because the Rays already had an excess of starting pitching. So they’re not really losing much, but they’re gaining 3 big prospects. One of which could be the next star in the league.
TRS86
12/10/2012-9:11am at 9:11 am (UTC -4)
I still don’t know enough about the KC prospects other than Myers. I would think however, that they could have gotten 2 impact bats that are MLB ready by trading both of those guys. Maybe they did?
Prismo
12/10/2012-9:16am at 9:16 am (UTC -4)
The other 2 big chips in the trade were two of the Royals’ top starting pitching prospects.
Odorizzi was 11-3 in AAA last season with an ERA of 2.93. So it’s fair to see he’s a major league ready starter of possibly a high caliber.
Montgomery was a very high prospect although he’s staggered in the past couple of years (in AA and AAA).Regardless, Baseball America rated him the #39, #19, and #23 best prospect in MLB coming into the 2010/2011/2012 seasons.
TRS86
12/10/2012-9:18am at 9:18 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, basically they hedged their bets but with that rotation and the demise of the AL East I would have traded Davis maybe in a separate trade to get another hitter… Oh well.
Prismo
12/10/2012-9:23am at 9:23 am (UTC -4)
I think the other important factor is that the Rays would’ve only had Shields and Davis for 2 more years. Instead they get all these prospects for (I don’t know) 5-6 years? That’s why they’ve always been competitive in recent years.
I think the trade also shows how myopic GMs are these days. Niese being signed for 5 years means nothing. Most GMs don’t care/think about what their team will look like in 5 years, because if they aren’t relevant in the next 2 years they’ll probably be fired! It’s really why trading Niese at this juncture doesn’t make much sense – if he continues to pitch like he has, he’ll be worth close to the same value 3 years from now!
srt
12/10/2012-9:33am at 9:33 am (UTC -4)
Could be, Prismo.
We certainly know our current GM won’t be here 5 years from now. Heck, likely won’t be here a couple of years from now……
Stick
12/10/2012-10:23am at 10:23 am (UTC -4)
he is signed through 2014. I would be shocked if he was here beyond that, and actually my gut feeling is he bails after 2013.
unfortunaely that means Jeffy becomes the acting GM, with JP on the books working out of his house in Boston as a front man.
I am sure that will all end well.
TX
12/10/2012-10:37am at 10:37 am (UTC -4)
I’m guessing he’ll ride out the full 4 year deal, with the heir named sometime after next offseason. Like April/May…
srt
12/10/2012-10:48am at 10:48 am (UTC -4)
If Jeff slides in as GM, the ‘coeur’ will legitimately have something to complain about. They’ll be wishing SA was back….
TX
12/10/2012-10:55am at 10:55 am (UTC -4)
If Jeff becomes GM, I just may boycott the team. I’m not into S&M and that would be S&M to the Nth degree…
Stick
12/10/2012-12:41pm at 12:41 pm (UTC -4)
well, JP was extended recently, and I am pretty sure his deal goes out beyond when SA is signed for (though he does have a team option for 2015).
So I am pretty sure you have your succession plan in place. And given that the guy works remote, likely has no other possible offers to GM, and Jeffy has shown in the past that he really wants to run the operation, I fear that the handwriting is all over the wall.
wanny
12/10/2012-7:19am at 7:19 am (UTC -4)
seems like KC gave up an awful lot. Odorizzi may very well be ready to be in the middle of a rotation too. and shields could be in the early stages of a decline.
this hurts the mets, though. texas has its choice among the free agent starters now. the mets’ trade market is shrinking.
TX
12/10/2012-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
Shields is good, but he isn’t that good (at least in my mind). They could have just shelled out some cash for Lohse and had Odorizzi as the 5th starter.
And I know Minny is sucking, as is Cleveland, but Chi Sox aren’t slouches and Detroit is still a power, so I don’t even really see how they are thinking they are going to make a huge run here. Possible? Yes. Probable? No.
gategem
12/9/2012-11:58pm at 11:58 pm (UTC -4)
There have been a number of well presented points on both sides of the ledger. I think the fact that they both carry some validity supports my feeling that it’s just too early in the game to properly evaluate SA’s performance. I also feel that SA believed he could turn DW into a number of high up-side position prospects as well as using DW’s salary to advantage. Such a move might have had a short term negative impact on the team but over the long term could have helped put a strong team on the field. If this indeed is true then SA will have to change his building plan (if indeed there is one) on the fly. And if Jeffy boy is now making the decisions SA may very well leave for greener pastures.
srt
12/10/2012-8:31am at 8:31 am (UTC -4)
This sums up my opinion in a nutshell, gem.
From what I’m reading SA would have preferred to trade Wright, sign DIckey – and ownership wants the opposite.
srt
12/10/2012-8:37am at 8:37 am (UTC -4)
Ted Berg’s take:
‘Never attribute reason to the team with Jeff Francoeur on it.’
LOL……
boldib
12/10/2012-8:53am at 8:53 am (UTC -4)
“Rosey-eyed optimists”? Where?
SaltyGary
12/10/2012-9:19am at 9:19 am (UTC -4)
Boy oh Boy Kong, I imagine that was somewhat therapeutic for ya. It does seem like another off-season is slipping away with nothing happening, doesn’t it. He better get to work if he wants fannies in the seats next season.
TX
12/10/2012-9:30am at 9:30 am (UTC -4)
Now, imagine what they could have gotten back if they traded price! I guess you just don’t trade CY winners…
greggofboken
12/10/2012-9:41am at 9:41 am (UTC -4)
Excerpts from David Price’s twitter account:
—–
Lies!!!!! RT @Ken_Rosenthal: Source: #Rays will send James Shields and Wade Davis to #Royals for Wil Myers and other prospects.
—–
Guys guys guys there’s been a huge misunderstanding…whenever we all wake up tomorrow Shields and WD40 will still be my teammates…
—–
What hath Logan Morrisson wrought?
TX
12/10/2012-10:35am at 10:35 am (UTC -4)
One would think the first thing an agent would say to their client would be “please don’t use twitter”…
TRS86
12/10/2012-10:49am at 10:49 am (UTC -4)
Hell I ask that of my HS basketball players… to no avail.
gategem
12/10/2012-3:15pm at 3:15 pm (UTC -4)
I’m sure you’re universally loved by all.
Stick
12/10/2012-10:14am at 10:14 am (UTC -4)
real asked in another forum if this deal for Neise and Wheeler was something you would do. And I disagree with him on the answer. I say yes.
Why? Well, the entire premise was trading a SP (neise in this case) for a top young hitter (Myers, if you believe he is the real deal). Plus, the mets would get 2 more prospects (that montgomery guy, and the 4th guy I don’t know vs. the PTBNL from Tampa, so call them a wash).
so basically, Neise for Myers and Montomery.
Then, you would have Wheeler for Oragmi. Considering Oregano is just as high, if not higher, prospect, closer to the show, just as projectable, and Lefty (I think), you can really say that would be a wash if not tilted toward the mets.
He would also step right into the rotation to replace Neise. Mongomery preplaces Wheeler at AAA. And Myers replaces a big gaping void of nothingness in RF.
TRS86
12/10/2012-10:21am at 10:21 am (UTC -4)
Not me because I already know that Niese is under contract, cheap and can pitch in NY. Niese for Myers? I guess. No way am I including Wheeler too.
TX
12/10/2012-10:25am at 10:25 am (UTC -4)
I think he’s viewing it as Niese for Myers and then Wheeler for Ooohlala. There are reports that said KC wanted Shields for Myers straight up, so to me, I don’t even think you would need to include Wheeler at all. But I would have wanted more than just Myers for Niese. Not a great deal more, but more none the less.
Stick
12/10/2012-10:30am at 10:30 am (UTC -4)
So you are OK with Neise for meyers if it happens.
The deal then becomes Wheeler or Orazzani and Montgomery. Seems like the Mets may be coming out ahead there. the main 2 are pretty equivalent, and the Montgomery dude is a spare with upside.
you can argue either way, but it was a viable alternative to get a cornerstone bat (If you believe that myers is one)
TRS86
12/10/2012-10:48am at 10:48 am (UTC -4)
But then shreds the pitching depth we have.
Prismo
12/10/2012-10:51am at 10:51 am (UTC -4)
Hey guys there are real potential trades out there that don’t involve players who have already been moved.
TRS86
12/10/2012-10:53am at 10:53 am (UTC -4)
Yeah, but I think we have already discussed all of those.,.. LOL.
TRS86
12/10/2012-11:05am at 11:05 am (UTC -4)
OK at Prismo’s request….
I still can’t see why the Angels are not in on Dickey? It makes complete sense for them and they have a rotation of parts and shambles at the moment. They have hitters in Trumbo and a catcher in Clonger and a CF in Burgawhatever… seems like a natural fit for a deal to be expanded to something like
Dickey and Flores for those 3?
TX
12/10/2012-11:09am at 11:09 am (UTC -4)
LAA, TOR & TEX should all still be in on this. I’m actually surprised BOS or BAL aren’t in on this as well.
TRS86
12/10/2012-11:16am at 11:16 am (UTC -4)
I don’t think Boston really has what we are looking for and I am beginning to wonder if Toronto does either unless they include DA. I mean seriously how much better is JPA than Olivo?
greggofboken
12/10/2012-11:23am at 11:23 am (UTC -4)
I agree. Quality starting pitching options seem limited to Dickey, Lohse, Sanchez and Dempster. Of the teams you mentioned, I can only see Boston as not being legitimately lining up for a short-term solution. Dickey has more upside than anyone else still out there right now.
TX
12/10/2012-11:35am at 11:35 am (UTC -4)
Never can count out Bos, though I do agree, they don’t match up on paper.
kingman 26
12/10/2012-11:17am at 11:17 am (UTC -4)
Good lord NO!
Trumbo hits a few HRs and spends his life striking out!
TRS86
12/10/2012-11:19am at 11:19 am (UTC -4)
LOL, we have already discussed this but if the Mets could get that package for 3 guys who would start for the Mets in 2013 and all under control and cheap, I am doing it all day.
TX
12/10/2012-11:34am at 11:34 am (UTC -4)
Me too. Though, I’m with Pris in not wanting Borgnie.
kingman 26
12/10/2012-11:45am at 11:45 am (UTC -4)
Have you looked at Conger’s MLB offensive numbers?
He has been horrible!
Our offense with Trumbo and Conger would not be any better.
Wow. Bizarre!
TRS86
12/10/2012-11:48am at 11:48 am (UTC -4)
Not be any better? Are you serious? Not be any better than no one and Thole?
TRS86
12/10/2012-11:50am at 11:50 am (UTC -4)
Also, of course when you trade for prospects you have to look at upside.
Conger has a : .297 .359 .467 .826 line in the minors and his MLB sample size is too small to judge. 250 PA?
kingman 26
12/10/2012-11:55am at 11:55 am (UTC -4)
Thole’s MIL line was .288/.375/.381/.756.
If these numbers have any relevance, aside from a few HR, Thole was just as good in the minors, and has been infinitely better in the majors.
TRS86
12/10/2012-12:03pm at 12:03 pm (UTC -4)
250PA.
Again, if you don’t believe that Conger would be better than Thole, I disagree and we again are at a blockade.
TRS86
12/10/2012-11:21am at 11:21 am (UTC -4)
I also feel dirty about Ike Davis’ offense every time you degrade Trumbo because they are basically the same player.
kingman 26
12/10/2012-11:43am at 11:43 am (UTC -4)
Yes, but fielding is part of the equation too. And Ike’s rookie year was better than Trumbo’s two full years. Perhaps Ike continues on the upward curve he was on when St. Dimples ran into him and he missed most of the year, had Valley fever, etc.
And I would not trade Dickey for Ike either, if that was an option.
TRS86
12/10/2012-11:47am at 11:47 am (UTC -4)
Well your last line says it all and I think that is the issue between us. You value the one year of Dickey MUCH more than I do.
kingman 26
12/10/2012-11:57am at 11:57 am (UTC -4)
No I most definitely do not—I value THREE years of Dickey…if they really keep Dickey without re-signing him, then every last word of my blathering about Wilpon motivations will be absolutely 100% correct.
Nothing would be more damning and more shortsighted and more irresponsible.
TRS86
12/10/2012-12:04pm at 12:04 pm (UTC -4)
Even 3 years at that price and then having to field an OF of Duda, Kirk and Hairston/Baxter at best?
Prismo
12/10/2012-11:26am at 11:26 am (UTC -4)
Can they keep Bourjos and send us a mid-level prospect instead?
Trumbo, Conger, and a mid-level prospect
Dickey, Thole, Flores
Realistic? Asking for too much? I bet the Angels are very hesitant to give up Trumbo and Conger.
TRS86
12/10/2012-11:32am at 11:32 am (UTC -4)
They might be.
As for Bourjos, he isn’t great but we will need a good defensive CF and he at least does that.
Prismo
12/10/2012-11:34am at 11:34 am (UTC -4)
Honestly I think I’d like to give Kirk another shot to see what he can do unless we actually trade for a real CF, not one with a .600 OPS last season. :p
TRS86
12/10/2012-11:45am at 11:45 am (UTC -4)
Keep in mind we need 3 OF…
kingman 26
12/10/2012-11:39am at 11:39 am (UTC -4)
I think WE would be giving up WAY too much.
The Cy Young winner and maybe our only good hitting prospect for a guy who strikes out a ton and is not much of a fielder, a catcher who hits like Nickeas thus far, and a mid-level prospect?
Terrible deal for the Mets.
TRS86
12/10/2012-11:43am at 11:43 am (UTC -4)
Well the sad part is Kong that all three would be better than the alternatives we currently have on the team.
TX
12/10/2012-11:56am at 11:56 am (UTC -4)
You know, I think I would be OK with a return that did not help the team this year. 2 positional Wheeler types in AA would do it for me. Yeah, it ain’t helping this year, but we can all be in agreement that having a stocked system allows you to not have to run out and make big signings to compete.
So you sign Olivo, redo Hairston (though I’d like Ross), and sign Lannan and some filler. Stumble through the year, maybe (though unlikely) catch lightning in a bottle and make a run. Then look to do something of note for 2014 (Elsbury? JJ?).
Stick
12/10/2012-12:32pm at 12:32 pm (UTC -4)
tex, I can live with that. And of course, sign pumpernickle until the other polish guy is ready.
TX
12/10/2012-12:52pm at 12:52 pm (UTC -4)
Pounding Polak?
Hammering Kanish?
The Submarine Screendoor?
He most certainly needs a nickname.
kingman 26
12/10/2012-11:52am at 11:52 am (UTC -4)
TRS, why in the world would you think Conger would hit better than Thole when he largely has not at any level?
TRS86
12/10/2012-12:06pm at 12:06 pm (UTC -4)
How is .298 .371 .470 .841 in AAA not better than .265 .349 .424 .772?
What world is that?
kingman 26
12/10/2012-12:15pm at 12:15 pm (UTC -4)
I am starting to think that sometimes you really do make arguments like this for fun.
First off I said “when he LARGELY has not at any level”…in addition, have you looked at their AA numbers? Thole was better in AA.
And Conger’s 250 MLB PA are too small of a sample, yet you cite Thole’s AAA #s which were in 196 PA?
Really off the wall my friend.
Stick
12/10/2012-12:37pm at 12:37 pm (UTC -4)
putting aside the bat for a moment (and yes, it is too early to write him off as a ML hitter), how is he as a defensive catcher?
If he really is the “real deal” behind the plate, and can be counted on to help develop (And develop with) the pitching staff, then he still has a lot of value.
TRS86
12/10/2012-12:38pm at 12:38 pm (UTC -4)
OK that’s fine. Here’s Thole’s total minor leagues numbers:
.288 .375 .381 .756
vs:
.298 .371 .470 .841
Also, keep in mind as you mention that defense does play a part. As far as I know Conger has always been a catcher so his experience level at the position is higher. Again, I don’t think many MLB people would debate that Conger isn’t a better catching prospect than Thole.
Prismo
12/10/2012-12:44pm at 12:44 pm (UTC -4)
From what I’ve read, Conger has the tools to be a slightly above average defensive catcher. What’s holding him back is that he’s had some “spells” where he’s had trouble throwing the ball, resulting in errors.
Prismo
12/10/2012-12:40pm at 12:40 pm (UTC -4)
Kingman! I hope you see this!
Between the Angels, Blue Jays, and Rangers:
I would be curious to see 1 or 2 trade possibilities that you would favor, with Dickey being involved. Thank you.
Stick
12/10/2012-12:43pm at 12:43 pm (UTC -4)
well, he really wants to trade Wright instead and hold onto dickey at all costs, so expect the deals to be really lopsided!
kingman 26
12/10/2012-12:48pm at 12:48 pm (UTC -4)
Hi Prismo–
Blue Jays–Dickey for d’Arnaud
Rangers-Dickey for either Profar or Andrus
Angels–Not really sure I like any of the players being bandied about as possibilities.
I think Dickey is a very valuable player and will continue to be for three more years.
I have zero interest in Gose/Arencibia/Trumbo/Conger/Olt.
Just do not see any of those guys–even getting two of them with some middling prospect–as making the team better than it would be by keeping Dickey.
Am I asking too much? Very possibly yes. But Texas might eventually decide that they have two shortstops (and are also set at 2B and 3B for years) and might blink and trade one for the starting pitcher who could really be the last piece of the puzzle for them.
Prismo
12/10/2012-12:54pm at 12:54 pm (UTC -4)
Thank you! I think those are totally fair possibilities. With Myers gone, D’Arnaud would be my number 1 target as well. Maybe we should hope the Yankees/Sox/Rays/Orioles keep making moves so the Blue Jays feel they have to do something again.
I wonder though, if we traded for Profar or Andrus who would presumably play at 2nd – what would happen to Murphy?
TX
12/10/2012-1:01pm at 1:01 pm (UTC -4)
See below.
kingman 26
12/10/2012-1:06pm at 1:06 pm (UTC -4)
To me, if you get Profar, Tejada slides over to 2B, and Murphy becomes a potentially very valuable bench player, pinch hitter, and depth at 1B/2B/3B/LF. So three areas of the team are improved, which, to me, is along the lines of what needs to happen for a Dickey trade to be worthwhile.
Olt is a 3B, Trumbo is a K machine and a questionable fielder, and the rest of the Angel and Blue Jay guys being discussed are also not really top-level types.
I know my suggestions are asking for really great top prospects, but in my opinion Dickey is not worth trading unless we get someone on that level. I personally feel that there’s no reason he cannot continue to be at least as good as he was in 2010-2011 for 3 more years; especially when one considers the historic longevity of many knuckleballers.
And your question inspired a brand new post!
Stick
12/10/2012-12:48pm at 12:48 pm (UTC -4)
someone needs to make a new thread. I can’t do it from here…
but is there any creative juice in this FO at all?
you hear whining about positions being blocked, and that even a top prospect (olt for example) is no good because we have someone in the way.
well, the mets need talent bad, and if you can get the jackpot for say a 1B, why not do it, and look to move the guy in the way instead? Make multiple moves to eventually balance the roster.
just spitballing here, but say Olt is your dream hitter, but he has to play 3B or 1B. well obvouisly now 3B is taken, but fine, bring him in for 1B. Ike is cheap and hit 32 HRs. Can’t you then convert him into a good OF?
why does everything have to be step A to B and done? sometimes you need step C, D and Q also!.
This FO really is ridiculously conservative and unimaginative isn’t it? Though every day, I attribute more of that to jeffy (leave Fred out of it, I don’t think he has any clue what is really going on).
kingman 26
12/10/2012-12:56pm at 12:56 pm (UTC -4)
New thread is there!
TX
12/10/2012-1:00pm at 1:00 pm (UTC -4)
Olt + Profur + Holland + another prosepct for Niese and Dickey. Move Olt to 1B. Flores + Ike + Familia for Price. Make Murph move to the OF just to see the rants by SRT daily. Extend Price with a 15 year, 2.1 billion dollar contract, with an option for a 16th year (club option) with a 50 cent buy out.
And yes, I am joking.