Jan 09
Today we learn the fate of Mike Piazza’s admittance into the National Baseball Hall of Fame in the year 2013. No preaching here, it’s all been done before! You can tune into MLB Network or find the results streaming live on mlb.com at 2:00pm ET. The results will likely also be posted at http://bbwaa.com/hof/ in a timely fashion if you’re interested in seeing which voters have their heads permanently stuck up their arses.
Good luck Mike!
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72 comments
TX
1/9/2013-9:56am at 9:56 am (UTC -4)
Take the vote away from the “writers”. Please.
gategem
1/9/2013-1:30pm at 1:30 pm (UTC -4)
It should be given to innocents that have no personal agendas. So off to a maternity ward we go with IPAD in hand.
TX
1/10/2013-12:49am at 12:49 am (UTC -4)
My little man voted for Rose. I had to start explaining sports gambling and then said “just wait a couple years. We’ll chat with Gate. All will be revealed then.”.
SaltyGary
1/9/2013-10:00am at 10:00 am (UTC -4)
Posted this late last night in the other thread, it’s a fantastic read on current voting numbers:
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/08/suspicion-of-steroid-use-could-keep-bagwell-and-piazza-out-of-hall/#more-38164
srt
1/9/2013-10:45am at 10:45 am (UTC -4)
Read that last night when you linked to it.
Great read and I suspect where going to be seeing more of this type article over the next several years as more and more of these guys from the steroid era are eligible.
TRS86
1/9/2013-10:01am at 10:01 am (UTC -4)
He’s not getting in and right now I am not sure if anyone will this year. Sad state.
Prismo
1/9/2013-10:03am at 10:03 am (UTC -4)
I hope no one gets in. It’s the outcome most likely to spark change. It’s simply not good for HoF business if no one gets inducted.
TX
1/9/2013-10:04am at 10:04 am (UTC -4)
You are one smart weatherman.
Prismo
1/9/2013-10:09am at 10:09 am (UTC -4)
LOL great minds think alike. Can you send compliments to my boss?
TX
1/9/2013-10:03am at 10:03 am (UTC -4)
I almost hope no one gets in. If that isn’t the biggest “holy crap, i have to do something” to the devil, err, Selig, then I don’t what is. I’m sure he’ll love a no ceremony year up in Cooperstown.
srt
1/9/2013-10:09am at 10:09 am (UTC -4)
There will be 3 inductees though. There’s three non player, baseball type guys getting in this year. All three have long since passed. One’s a manager and I forget what the other 2 are.
TX
1/9/2013-10:12am at 10:12 am (UTC -4)
So in other words, no one is getting in.
gategem
1/9/2013-1:37pm at 1:37 pm (UTC -4)
Even if they’re inducted posthumously family member will be invited for the presentation and as a last resort a séance can be conducted.
TRS86
1/9/2013-10:03am at 10:03 am (UTC -4)
I just got linked to Davidoff’s explanation of who he voted for. What garbage.
Prismo
1/9/2013-10:05am at 10:05 am (UTC -4)
I almost made a post discrediting that, but it wasn’t worth my effort. Let’s just say…he is completely misusing those statistics. And I mean COMPLETELY misusing.
SaltyGary
1/9/2013-10:07am at 10:07 am (UTC -4)
Davidoff and I have gone back and forth 10 times today on twitter already. We don’t agree but he is definitely approachable.
TRS86
1/9/2013-10:08am at 10:08 am (UTC -4)
Here’s my problem with using WAR on catchers if it includes defense:
Evaluating catcher defense has long been one of the banes of saberists everywhere. While there have been some strides in evaluating defense for position players — see: UZR, DRS – catchers are a separate world in and of themselves. There are a number of different defensive skills that catchers need to possess, and each of them has the potential ability to impact their overall value defensive: arm strength and accuracy, pitch blocking ability, pitch framing ability, and pitch selection.
TRS86
1/9/2013-10:11am at 10:11 am (UTC -4)
Piazza had a -62.9 UZR. I mean seriously, what garbage using that against him. I would bet the pitchers that threw to him would pick him over about 95% of all the catchers.
Prismo
1/9/2013-10:14am at 10:14 am (UTC -4)
The issue isn’t with WAR, it’s with the other statistic he used, which is basically a WAR aggregate over several years. The issue is that the creator of the metric intended it to be used to compare players ONLY to other players of their OWN position. This is because catchers, for example, will have less aggregated WAR (significantly less) than other positions due to playing a more difficult position which is much more demanding on the body.
Davidoff said “F*** THAT” and compared all the players on the ballot with this metric totally equally. So the more difficult positions are slighted, such as catcher. And this isn’t a minor slight – it’s actually incredibly substantial.
My post was going to be redoing Davidoff’s method, but adjusting that metric to fit all positions. I didn’t do it, because it would take hours, and Davidoff isn’t worth it. But I am 100% sure that not only would Piazza be in the top 10, he’d be among the top inductees.
SaltyGary
1/9/2013-10:24am at 10:24 am (UTC -4)
Exactly Prismo. And Jaffe, the creator of JAWS, called him out for that exact fact.
SaltyGary
1/9/2013-10:25am at 10:25 am (UTC -4)
This is Jaffe’s piece on why Piazza shoud get in and it’s great:
http://mlb.si.com/2012/12/14/jaws-and-the-2013-hall-of-fame-ballot-mike-piazza/
TRS86
1/9/2013-10:41am at 10:41 am (UTC -4)
I disagree to an extent. There is a large issue with WAR for catchers IMO. Catching has always been known as an offensive position and or game calling position. I don’t care how great your defense is there, if you can’t hit, you don’t play full-time. So to value UZR at the same percentage for catcher as a CF is completely stupid.
gategem
1/9/2013-10:48pm at 10:48 pm (UTC -4)
Prismo, I’m interested on how you planed on normalizing the numbers so a universal comparison could be made (although to be honest it would be a waste of time as catchers should be compared to other catchers, etc. The problem occurs if the catcher plays multiple positions as well and you are looking for one identifying number. So the normalized number would of help there. Of course you could just break out the numbers by position).
TX
1/9/2013-10:19am at 10:19 am (UTC -4)
This is the problem with advanced statistics, in that people are trying to boil it down to 1 specific number to get a black or white answer. Advanced statistics are not evil, but need to be part of the formulated decision and not the end all.
And I hate the whole saber vs. eyeball thing, but if you wrote during the time when Piazza played, you obviously had to know about him, his game, etc. etc. If you can’t take his numbers, his WAR (uh! what is it good for? Absolutely Nothing! Sing it with me), his accolades (AS games, awards, etc.) and formulate the first time only that he is/isn’t a HOF, then you aren’t fit to vote on this crap. And proving a point by not making them 1st ballot HOF is equal prove of brain damage by the voter.
fongulalou
1/9/2013-11:05am at 11:05 am (UTC -4)
Any argument against Piazza holds no water. granted he was not a great defesive Catcher BUT he was at least average until late in his career offset by being perhaps THE GREATEST HITTER AT HIS POSITION IN HISTORY. Take a look back @Robin Yount who I always liked BUT never thought was a HOFer who got in right away. Over 200 errors @ short in his 1st 5 + seasons, then w/the exception of a yr or two hit like a SS when he moved to CF. Paul Molitor??..tell me how many HOF seasons he HAD. aLSO A TERRIBLE position player ( think gregg jefferies) @ 2B, SS & 3B who in the AL the Brewers were able to make a DH in his early 30s in order to keep him from putting on a glove.
srt
1/9/2013-10:04am at 10:04 am (UTC -4)
If no one is voted in this year, it’ll be interesting to see how they spin that.
Piazza should be voted in. If he doesn’t get in this year, here’s hoping it will happen next year.
fongulalou
1/9/2013-10:53am at 10:53 am (UTC -4)
What have I been missing?…How could Mike Piazza NOT be a lock to get in today?..I watched a bunch of the shows on the MLB network last night and all the yakkers seem to cover just about every angle, except a couple of things…1) discussion of Piazza was very limited to lumping him in with Bagwell…2) next year Jeff Kent seems to already be getting a lot of support despite the fact (no one mentioned) that his stats are based on having BARRY BONDS WITH A .500obp hitting directly i/f/o him for a decade……HELLO…..wtf……And this Davidoff, what the effff part 2….
TRS86
1/9/2013-10:57am at 10:57 am (UTC -4)
I don’t care what anyone says, nor what the stats say. Jeff Kent is NOT an HOF.
srt
1/9/2013-11:06am at 11:06 am (UTC -4)
I agree about Kent, but you know he’s going to be voted in….
TRS86
1/9/2013-11:10am at 11:10 am (UTC -4)
LOL, lets hope the WAR police really show up for that one. It has him ranked below Willie Randolph. Oh my goodness.
fongulalou
1/9/2013-11:11am at 11:11 am (UTC -4)
THANK YOU!…You or I could have had 80rbi seasons when the guy i/f/o you is on base every other AB…..
well maybe not 80rbi….but still.
fongulalou
1/9/2013-11:16am at 11:16 am (UTC -4)
The inconsistency of the writers argument for or against a guy is politician weight. Jeff Kent was barely average, if that @2B, was not a liked guy and outside of Bonds himself, benefitted more than any other single player from Barry turning himself into the incredible hulk.
gategem
1/9/2013-11:15pm at 11:15 pm (UTC -4)
Kent has not been voted into the HOF as of yet so save that argument until next year. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail at that time but don’t count on it. Just remember this is not a court of law and the election to the HOF, while important to the players involved, is not worth getting aggravated over.
BTW I believe because of the number of players using during that time frame Piazza was painted with the same broad PED brush that they were. He was not proven to have used PEDs but somehow got lumped in with the others that were using. Again this is not a court of law and the writer’s personal preferences color their voting. Also there are a number of catchers that are in the HOF that were not only good hitters but outstanding receivers as well. Piazza might have been compared to someone like Bench. As I’ve said elsewhere Piazza deserved to be elected on the first ballot.
srt
1/9/2013-11:07am at 11:07 am (UTC -4)
OT:
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/mlb-switching-from-land-line-bullpen-phones-to-cell-phones/
MLB moving into the 21st century.
Had to LOL with the image of Charlie Manuel they painted using these.
gategem
1/9/2013-11:17pm at 11:17 pm (UTC -4)
They’ll probably be hacked and all hell will break loose.
TX
1/9/2013-11:21am at 11:21 am (UTC -4)
I’d have voted for Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Bagwell, Biggio, and Raines. Thought about Trammel, but he didn’t make the cut in my book. He’s in the Almost Hall of Fame for me.
TX
1/9/2013-12:07pm at 12:07 pm (UTC -4)
oh, and a write in vote for Pete Rose too.
darknova306
1/9/2013-11:58am at 11:58 am (UTC -4)
The Hall of Fame is full of cheaters and agendas, and that’s what this year’s ballot is all about. It’s a match made in heaven. Selig and the HoF deserve everything they get from the coming years of questionable agendas and bad press.
TRS86
1/9/2013-12:07pm at 12:07 pm (UTC -4)
It still pisses me off this holier than thou attitude of some fans, players, gms, baseball officials and especially the writers. This idea that they may or may not have cheated to get ahead and have dishonored the game when the everyone except the stupid knew they were using when they were using and these same people whining now were the same ones championing those players when it was going on. Think what baseball itself did to publicize McGwire and Sosa.
The entire thing makes me sick. The only ones we punish are the players that actually put their body on the line doing this stuff while baseball and the media made millions and fans actually came back to the game like never before.
greggofboken
1/9/2013-12:25pm at 12:25 pm (UTC -4)
Well…it’s tough for me to work up a head of steam or outrage on behalf of the players from the era. They were, or should have been, well aware of the risks and consequences. I wish I could recall the source of the survey, but a number of young aspiring athletes were asked if they would use steroids to enhance their chances of becoming a pro even if it meant taking 10 years off their lives. It was overwhelmingly answered yes.
For the innocent guys who may get splashed with suspicion b/c so many of their colleagues cheated while no one (including those who now feel wronged) said boo about it? That’s the price tag on being silent. No tears from me.
And yeah….I’d have voted for Mike. But if someone didn’t because of their qualms about how he did what he did, there will be no rending of garments by me. (Those who withhold first ballots or who presume to make the case that he shouldn’t be in based on his baseball performance are out to lunch.)
gategem
1/9/2013-11:26pm at 11:26 pm (UTC -4)
“rending of garments”
Does threatening to jump in the open grave count? I had a relative that at her husband’s funeral had to be restrained from jumping into the open grave. But before the last shovel of dirt was deposited on the coffin off she went to the banks to withdraw and close out the accounts before they were notified of her husband’s death.
darknova306
1/9/2013-12:26pm at 12:26 pm (UTC -4)
Very well said, TRS. The hypocritical moralizing is disgusting. The writers never made a peep about PED use in its heyday (when it wasn’t illegal in baseball, and some of them were actually legal in the U.S.), but now they’ve changed their minds and are applying a new morality retroactively to the entire era they helped create.
The best thing to happen to baseball in the 90s was the homerun race in 1998. After shooting itself in the balls during the strike, that summer of 98 brought baseball back into the national spotlight and the writers and fans loved it! Any writer that wants to tell me that PEDs ruined baseball will need to go back and read the columns they wrote during 1998 lauding how exciting that summer was.
Clowns, all of them.
TRS86
1/9/2013-1:08pm at 1:08 pm (UTC -4)
“never made a peep about PED use in its heyday (when it wasn’t illegal in baseball, and some of them were actually legal in the U.S.), but now they’ve changed their minds and are applying a new morality retroactively to the entire era they helped create.”
But not only that Dark, they and their companies made MILLIONS off of it and many of them made their names while worshiping at the statistical feet of those guys they now shun. In fact, I wonder how many of the voters wouldn’t even have a vote if not for their fame garnered while covering the ones they loathe?
Stick
1/9/2013-1:32pm at 1:32 pm (UTC -4)
when in doubt, follow the money. that goes for the writers too.
gategem
1/9/2013-11:43pm at 11:43 pm (UTC -4)
And what of the managers, GM’s and owners that turned a blind eye to the PED usage? I don’t see them criticizing the writers. They are taking the same plea as the writers. And why should I worry about a player being slighted because of the circumstances? As greggofboken pointed out the players, even the innocent, spoke volumes with their silence (why am I thinking of Simon and Garfunkel)? And what of the fans that reveled in their favorite player’s performance? Did they care if the player was using PEDs? And how many Mets fans would be crowing about this if Piazza was not involved? Not many I’m willing to bet. He’ll be voted in next year and will be happy to be elected.
Stick
1/9/2013-1:39pm at 1:39 pm (UTC -4)
screw the advanced sabre stats and analysis. It is a freaking museum, for stars and the best of the best. And by either measure, fully supported by whatever numbers you want, Piazza qualifies. he was the dominant player at his position for an era, defendably one of the best ever, and should be an absolute no brainer.
if you want to get sanctimoneous, at least restrict the vendetta to guys that actually were caught, or had damning evidence (Bondas, A Rod, etc.) But not just on rumour and speculation, because frankly, everyone from that era is suspect. So at least the playing field is level!
and what the hell, plenty of pitchers were juiced, so hitters doing it was really just keeping even, right?
whatever. Guys played in the era they played in, so need to be judged on that. if you dominate, you dominate. And old timers had plenty of advantages too that recent guys don’t (pre integration especially).
I also support taking the ovte from the writers, and forming a rotating committee.
Prismo
1/9/2013-1:58pm at 1:58 pm (UTC -4)
Feed started
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?topic_id=6003532&content_id=25543337
Prismo
1/9/2013-2:00pm at 2:00 pm (UTC -4)
NO ONE GOT IN HAHAHAHAHHAHA
SaltyGary
1/9/2013-2:05pm at 2:05 pm (UTC -4)
No one works for me.
TX
1/9/2013-2:07pm at 2:07 pm (UTC -4)
Nova’s gonna be PO’d. That’s gonna drive down potential traffic to his brew distribution facility.
Stick
1/9/2013-3:26pm at 3:26 pm (UTC -4)
that was his old place. The new barn is hours away from there. Wonder if it will even be up and running by then?
darknova306
1/9/2013-4:03pm at 4:03 pm (UTC -4)
Should be open sometime in May. Though, at this point who knows.
Stick
1/9/2013-10:12pm at 10:12 pm (UTC -4)
if you can have it open by memorial day, I can take a run up. My son graduates that weekend, and it seems we will have plenty of time to kill!
gategem
1/10/2013-12:13am at 12:13 am (UTC -4)
Nova, will you still be approachable when you have ascended to the level of the rich and famous?
TX
1/9/2013-4:57pm at 4:57 pm (UTC -4)
Does this mean you are self employed and have no subordinates?
srt
1/9/2013-6:04pm at 6:04 pm (UTC -4)
OT:
Astros Jonathan Singleton suspended 50 games for testing positive for marijuana.
(One time Philly prospect)
If there’s one banned substance that couldn’t even remotely be considered a ‘performance enhancer’, it would be marijuana. LOL
TX
1/9/2013-6:30pm at 6:30 pm (UTC -4)
It’s only performance enhancing for the user as in WHOA! WAS THAT COOL! type way.
And sucks for the Stros. #1 (and practically only prospect) and lost for 50 games. dang.
Stick
1/9/2013-10:10pm at 10:10 pm (UTC -4)
dumb ass.
kingman 26
1/9/2013-6:40pm at 6:40 pm (UTC -4)
I cannot get really overly excited about this; it is pretty bogus though.
Pete Rose is out and Gaylord Perry is in, and Perry cheated perhaps worse than anyone of his era. Rose never bet as a player as far as we know.
As for Piazza? He might have used; there sure are suggestive signs that he did. My feeling is that a HUGE percentage of all successful players of that era used, and only a small percentage have been caught. I also feel that the best of the best should still be in the Hall. Piazza and Bonds were the best of the best; McGwire was not. Sosa only became great after using.
Do we know that Piazza did or did not use his whole career? He certainly played for teams known for supposed steroid involvement.
I just think Piazza and Bonds and Clemens and ARod should all be in, until Gaylord Perry is ousted and the disgusting racist Landis is also ousted. A commissioner who helped keep African-Americans out of the game has no place in the Hall of Fame.
It’s hypocrisy and it’s revolting, and it is yet another instance of the media putting themselves above everyone else.
Recently, one of the beat writers wrote a column suggesting that the media was absolutely correct to ask Dickey about his contract at the event with the Hurricane Sandy victim kids; he then said that Dickey was wrong to answer. it is this type of holier-than-thou, outsized, comical arrogant hypocrisy which makes the baseball media such a crazy joke.
It’s probably time to have a 3-tiered vote:
–1/3 BBWAA
–1/3 Active Players
–1/3 Veterans Committee
Hmmm, I feel a long, blathering post germinating in my head…
srt
1/9/2013-7:11pm at 7:11 pm (UTC -4)
You raise some good points…but I can’t say I’d want active players being part of the vote.
Heard a good point being raised earlier today somewhere online. It’s almost a well known point that Selig & Co. ignored the PED use in the 90s – or at least turned a blind eye – b/c MLB needed all the help it could get getting fans back to the game after the strike. So those such as Bonds and Sosa and McGuire and Clemons and the others might have went a long way towards ‘saving’ the game of baseball as the national pastime, as the opinion went.
Now…they’re hanging those same guys out to dry. They were used, sure as they themselves were using. Kind of ironic, no?
darknova306
1/9/2013-8:39pm at 8:39 pm (UTC -4)
Lots of writers that are now keeping guys out because of roids were the same guys making their careers by glorifying the users during their heyday. And roids have been in the game for many decades at this point. It’s not just the 90s. This has been going on since the early 70s, and probably earlier. Until we can quantize how many cheaters are in the HoF currently, keeping guys out because of mere suspicion is a disgusting atrocity to the game’s history.
gategem
1/10/2013-12:36am at 12:36 am (UTC -4)
Back in the 1940’s and 50’s the prevailing thought was that it was more important to remain flexible and avoid developing the type of physiques we saw in what should now be known as the PED era. Most of the players earned very little and had to work in the winter to augment their income. ST was actually used to get in shape. The majority of players were drunk most of the time and there are some incredibly funny stories of some the greats being hung-over.
Stick
1/9/2013-10:08pm at 10:08 pm (UTC -4)
those guys were extremely well compensated for being “used”.
SaltyGary
1/9/2013-7:26pm at 7:26 pm (UTC -4)
Per the Dowd report he there was evidence to suggest Rose gambled during the 85 and 86 seasons as a player and specific day to day transactional evidence of him gambling as a coach in 87.
SaltyGary
1/9/2013-7:32pm at 7:32 pm (UTC -4)
Pretty cool, the whole report is here. You can see the gambling slips and checks.
http://www.seanlahman.com/baseball-archive/pete-rose/dowd-report/
Prismo
1/9/2013-8:40pm at 8:40 pm (UTC -4)
Do it!
gategem
1/10/2013-1:09am at 1:09 am (UTC -4)
Kong, Gaylord Perry loaded up just enough to plant the thought of a wet one in the hitters mind on every pitch. He also acted as though he was applying a foreign substance to each pitch even though most of the time he didn’t cheat. The expectation that each pitch would move in some unnatural manner was enough to destroy the hitter’s concentration. Perry was constantly being searched while on the mound but they never caught him in the act.
Landis was to baseball what the Hays code was to the motion picture industry. After the 1919 BlackSox (I wonder if that term is politically correct these days) scandal baseball needed saviors and it was Landis and Babe Ruth. Landis was given dictatorial powers to try and give the impression of cleaning up baseball. Was he racist? Of course he was but so was most of the country and had he allowed baseball to become integrated it most probably would have doomed the sport at that time. If you receive Turner Classic Movies view some of the movies of that era. The overt racism will turn your stomach. That doesn’t make it right but it is what it is.
BTW Ralph Kiner idolized Hank Greenberg. In 1938 Greenberg hit 58 homers and was at that mark with a few games left to play. However, the pitchers were not going to allow some “Jew ***” (they actually used more offensive language) to break Ruth’s record.
Mr North Jersey
1/9/2013-9:01pm at 9:01 pm (UTC -4)
Nothing special about this article in general but the reason I am dropping the link is because who took the pictures in the article.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/mets-catcher-arnaud-receives-warm-wright-article-1.1236970
darknova306
1/9/2013-9:16pm at 9:16 pm (UTC -4)
Oh hell! Carlos got a job after retirement! Good for him
TRS86
1/9/2013-10:01pm at 10:01 pm (UTC -4)
Lol, nice catch.
Mr North Jersey
1/9/2013-11:57pm at 11:57 pm (UTC -4)
Off Topic:
CES 2013 is underway and a few items stood out.
Finally I saved the best for last as this is a product that TX will probably want to invest in.
gategem
1/10/2013-12:44am at 12:44 am (UTC -4)
Nice post. Some of these things are incredibly stupid while others are clever but after having worked for so many years in Electronics R&D nothing surprises me or really excites me. My only lament is that I didn’t:
1. work for the government or
2. stay in teaching or
3. do what Bill Gates did.