First off Happy St. Paddy’s day to all the readers of this blog Just remember after a long day of celebrating with alcoholic beverages – Don’t DRINK AND DRIVE … You may hit a bump and spill your drink !!!!!
Earlier today in his daily blog posting, ESPN Mets beat writer, Adam Rubin posed an interesting question
“Where would the Mets be today had Carlos Beltran connected with that Adam Wainwright curve-ball ?”
If I could venture a guess I would say the Mets would have won game seven against the Cardinals from St. Louis and I bet the Mets would have basically steamrolled through the Detroit Tigers en route to their third World Series title.
But doesn’t mean that I think that they would have been in a better place today had Beltran never been caught looking at strike three at Wainwright’s wicked curve.
1. Both Beltran and Carlos Delgado may still have had injury plagued seasons like they did in their final seasons with the Mets.
2. It is quite possible that the collapses of ’07 and ’08 would have occurred regardless.
3. The Mets still would have traded for ( and granted a lucrative contract extension to) Johan Santana.
4. Willie Randolph may have held on longer to the managerial reigns of the team, but he still more than likely been relieved after the ’08 season – instead of the infamous 3 a.m termination .
5. Jerry Manuel more than likely still would have been Willie’s successor.
6. Tony Bernazard still would still have ripped off his shirt and taunted the Mets minor league players, which in turn devolved into that media circus that starred Omar Minaya.
7. It is still possible that Jason Bay would have been signed to that contract which helped hamstring the Mets finances today.
…… And finally……….
8. MADOFF STILL WOULD HAVE HAPPENED !!!! Which is pretty much why Fred and Jeff Wilpon’s team is after 4 years seems to be a franchise teetering on the financial abyss – while the team itself is seemingly to be finally be on upswing.
So essentially I feel that even if the Mets had won it all in ’06 they still would be in the same predicament that that they are in today.
And with that said… HERE COMES THE INFAMY !!!!
Mets alumni celebrating a birthday today include:
Backup catcher from ’00-’04, Vance Wilson is 40 (1973).
The New York Mets signed free agent reserve outfielder Jerry Martin of the Kansas City Royals on March 17, 1984.
The New York Mets traded middle reliever Pete Walker and minor league pitcher Luis Arroyo to the San Diego Padres for reserve first baseman/outfielder Roberto Petagine and minor league pitcher Scott Adair on March 17, 1996.
The New York Mets signed free agent reserve outfielder Timo Perez on March 17, 2000.Timo was essentially an AAAA outfielder, but when he was given a chance to play everyday in the final months of the ’00 season, his timely hitting and above average defense helped the Mets reach the World Series.
The New York Mets released super-sub Joe McEwing on March 17, 2005.
The Cleveland Indians claimed reserve infielder Anderson Hernandez of the New York Mets on waivers on March 17, 2010. This was the end of Anderson’s second go round with the Mets.
Mo Vaughn has kidnapped Lucky – the spokesman for Lucky Charms cereal and will not release him until he gets a lifetime supply of the purple horseshoes !!!
22 comments
srt
3/17/2013-10:28am at 10:28 am (UTC -4)
Happy St. Patrick’s Day, all.
#1: I have no idea what would have happened but I sure wish we would have won game #7.
#2. No doubt in my mind. Winning the NLCS or even the WS would probably made Omar even less inclined to take a good look at that BP and starting rotation to plug the holes we had.
#3 – Agree.
#4: Whether one like Willie or not as manager, that 3am firing was not one of this Met’s organization’s finest hours. When they won that game on Sunday and where getting on the bus heading to the airport for the west coast trip, Willie went to Omar and said something like: ‘If you’re going to fire me, do it now. Don’t make me go across country for it.’
History reflects Omar lied right to his face on that one.
Since they were intent on doing it, they should have fired him coming into that Father’s Day weekend series. But no….they deliberately did it on the road. Cowards, all of them.
#5: Agree
#6: LOL…no doubt. That problem with Bernazard went back some years – and they were just covering it up.
#7: This one I’m not too sure of.
#8: For sure. Madoff was Wilpon’s problem – not the Mets. The Mets financial problems were just a fallout as a result.
Stick
3/17/2013-11:28am at 11:28 am (UTC -4)
the firing was not a good situation, but to be fair, it was 12:00 not 3:00.
srt
3/17/2013-12:18pm at 12:18 pm (UTC -4)
Yes, was midnight out there but 3:00am here in the east – which I think was the whole point.
They won that Monday night game but wouldn’t have mattered b/c that was 100% orchestrated to do it as far away from the NY media as possible. They wheels were in the works to get Peterson’s replacement out there for Tuesday’s game before that story even broke.
Stick
3/17/2013-12:22pm at 12:22 pm (UTC -4)
oh, I agree about the out of sight plan, but there are people that still seem to think they went banging on his door at 3:00 AM to fire him.
darknova306
3/17/2013-12:19pm at 12:19 pm (UTC -4)
Agreed on the firing. That was really awful situation, and showed the true colors of that front office. This was one of the biggest black marks on the franchise until the full extent of the Madoff mess was revealed.
greggofboken
3/17/2013-10:56am at 10:56 am (UTC -4)
I thought it was an interesting question too, and responded to it. Here were my thoughts (much in line with your own)
Where would the Mets be had Beltran come through against Wainwright?
For 2006, it’s tough to say. Tempting as it is to believe they could have won it all, they were w/o two-fifths of the starting rotation (Pedro out for good, and El Duque dubious). Maine and Perez were stepping up, but we can’t figure that they’d have continued that as young talents (who would later prove all to fallible) on a big stage. And Trachsel couldn’t be counted on, folding up in the middle of the NLCS. Could the Mets have overcome all this?
More telling, though, is the llkely long-term effect. As it was, the Mets were seduced by their own potentail — doing precious little in the off-season to upgrade their talent. In essence they stood pat, and when they did resume acquiring, they used the same methodology of throwing money at their problems via free agency rather than grooming their own. If Beltran connects, the Mets complacency would have only grown more extreme. Omar gets given an even longer leash and presumably is still around when the whole Madoff mess blows the whole thing up. With no grown-ups in the room, it’s quite possible the Mets would only now be beginning to try to salvage themselves and rebuild….instead of being at the pont where they are now — beginning to see the first results of their reinvention.
Long-term Beltran’s connecting might have been the worst thing for the franchise.
Stick
3/17/2013-11:33am at 11:33 am (UTC -4)
very reasonable thoughts, pretty much in line with mine. Though I don’t really think winning the WS would have had an ongoing negative impact.
very hard to say what the roster would have been (probably the same) but what I think would have not happened is the 2007 collapse. IMO, there was a component of panic to that, and if they were coming off a WS title, quite likely they would have been more relaxed/confident.
but, if ’07+ played out the same, we likely are in exactly the same place today.
Stick
3/17/2013-11:20am at 11:20 am (UTC -4)
better question, what if he had swung at and crushed one of the “I am desperate to not fall behind so I am throwing a FB right down the pipe” pitches he just sat there and watched go by to make it 0-2?
kingman 26
3/17/2013-11:24am at 11:24 am (UTC -4)
That Tiger team was one of the worst teams to win a pennant–they sure played that way.
Had Beltran hit the ball and the inning kept going and the Mets win that game, at the absolute minimum they win the 5th pennant in team history, which has a lot of value.
Even if they lose the WS making it would have meant a lot more than losing in the NLCS.
Would it have given them more confidence in 2007 so as to not choke so severely? Who knows, as Omar still would almost certainly have failed in the job of rebuilding team depth, which was a huge key to the success they had in 2006.
As for Gregg’s last sentence, I have to strongly disagree. Seems like–at the very worst–they would have been in the exact same position they have been in since that game.
Would winning that game have made Omar MORE likely to re-sign Bradford and Oliver, which I have always maintained was the key factor in the 2007 (and even more the 2008) choke? Highly unlikely.
Stick
3/17/2013-11:37am at 11:37 am (UTC -4)
looks like we were typing pretty much the same thing at the same time.
SaltyGary
3/17/2013-12:38pm at 12:38 pm (UTC -4)
IDK it would have been tough. With Floyd out, having to rely on Ollie again, and Wagner out of gas, they were barely hanging on.
Stick
3/17/2013-12:40pm at 12:40 pm (UTC -4)
the pitching was going to be a challenge, but I think the offense would have done some damage. Might have been a lot of high scoring games, but Mets certainly could have come out on top.
Hazmet
3/17/2013-1:01pm at 1:01 pm (UTC -4)
What dogs me most about this series was that damn rain out after the Mets crushed the Cards 12-5. It seemed like the Mets were ready to roll and go about there business and that rain out gave the Cards the breather to get back on their feet. It totally broke the momentum. My memory is blurry but it also seems that the forecast rain didn’t come until late and they could have squeezed the game in. I still feel the Metsies got totally hosed with that early rain out call.
Mike Bee
3/17/2013-3:02pm at 3:02 pm (UTC -4)
Awesome question, and I love counterfactual history, so here goes.
First, part of what made 2006 so painful was 2000. Losing to the Yankees was the single most devastating moment for me as a Mets fan, much worse than ’73, ’88, and ’06. In some ways, I don’t think we have ever truly recovered as a team from that WS.
So to begin, winning the World Series in 2006 would have gone a long way in erasing that despair and sense of futility that continues today. I do think we would have beaten Detroit, but because Willie was no LaRussa, it probably would have been a 4-1 or 4-2 series.
I see no reason that we wouldn’t have suffered most of the same personnel issues we did in 2007 and 2008, but with one important distinction: the monkey would have been off our backs, so the pressure down the stretch would have been less intense. I’d say we would have missed the playoffs one of those years, and made it in the other. The biggest change is that our fanbase would avoid the extreme despair and humiliation that we know all too well.
We still sign Santana, but it’s also possible he guides us back to another fall classic. No guess on whether we sign Bay, but one would have to think that winning a WS, and possibly making an additional postseason run wouldn’t hurt us as a destination for players. Pure speculation, but maybe we go for Tex or another impact player. Or maybe Bay still becomes a Met but plays in a more relaxed atmosphere.
Willie doesn’t magically become a better manager, but winning a WS goes a long way, and I don’t think he gets canned simply for one season where he misses the playoffs. Maybe Jerry replaces him by ’09 or ’10, maybe someone else gets the job.
Finally, finances. The new stadium and Madoff would have still happened, but chances are the Mets would have been in a better financial position from the WS win and possible subsequent playoff appearances. The fan base wouldn’t have shrunk the way it has, so normal ticket sales might have salved a lot of the Wilpons’ woes. Having won a WS, Omar might even still be GM. Hard to say what might have happened with Tony Bernazard, but maybe he would have exited quietly.
All in all, we might still be frustrated as fans, but a third WS championship would have made it all a lot easier to take.
kingman 26
3/17/2013-6:51pm at 6:51 pm (UTC -4)
Really some outstanding thoughts…I especially and vehemently agree with this one:
“Losing to the Yankees was the single most devastating moment for me as a Mets fan.”
2006 was horrible, but I had always found Pendleton’s HR off of McDowell in 1987 to be the worst moment for me as an adult Met fan until the 2000 WS–I will always believe that had they won that game, they sweep the series and make the 1987 playoffs. 1973 was awful, but I was just 7 and really the worst part of it was how angry and sad my Dad was when they lost—that postseason made me realize how important baseball could be.
But I remember Jerry Seinfeld left a message for Kenny Maine of ESPN that he played on the air after the 2000 WS, something where Seinfeld was saying that it was so intense and so awful losing that WS that he was re-evaluating everything Met-wise.
I agree. I remember being in Las Vegas for most of the games. I remember being strangely infuriated when Payton hit that HR in game 2 as I knew it would be too little too late. I remember when Piazza hit what would be the last out of the series, I jumped out of my chair thinking it could be a HR and maybe, just maybe there was hope.
The Dolphins losing the Super Bowl to the Redskins was horrible and traumatic, but nothing in sports has ever been as bad as that 2000 WS.
“In some ways, I don’t think we have ever truly recovered as a team from that WS.”
And neither has the fan base.
gategem
3/17/2013-8:36pm at 8:36 pm (UTC -4)
Personnel wise the 2000 Yankees were a far superior team than the 2000 Mets. Beating the Yankees in that series would have been a greater accomplishment that beating the Orioles in 1969. I doubt losing to the Yankees in 2000 has left an element of despair over the franchise and fandom other than perhaps you. In fact losing to the Dodgers in the 1988 playoffs was much more difficult to absorb than losing to the Yankees in 2000. The 1988 Mets were a far superior team than the Dodgers were. I saluted the 2000 Mets for their achievement that year. The carryover effect was minimal if that.
Stick
3/17/2013-8:40pm at 8:40 pm (UTC -4)
agreed. ’88 really hurt, since that was supposed to be WS #2 of many for the Dynasty.
99 and 00 were nice years, but not sure anyone looked at that as a sustained run coming up with the way that team was built. More of a great year, just came up short.
I was at game 5 of that WS. last row of the Mezz, in the wind tunnel. Horrible conditions to watch the game (at least the bottom half, since everything in the air and the scoreboard was cut off!), and seeing the Yanks celebrate on the field was just flat out crappy.
I must be a glutton. Or a jinx. I was also there in person for game 162 in 2007 and 2008…
gategem
3/18/2013-12:22am at 12:22 am (UTC -4)
For the sake of every Mets fan that has and will exist please stop attending critical games. Don’t even watch them. Don’t even find out the score.
Stick
3/18/2013-12:42am at 12:42 am (UTC -4)
sadly, I am not sure that it will be an issue for a while, but for you, I promise to at least not attend them.
gategem
3/17/2013-8:48pm at 8:48 pm (UTC -4)
Perhaps if some Neanderthal had not eaten an insect Adam Wainwright would have never been born and the entire Mets tragedy would not have occurred. Of course Germany could have won WWI.
gategem
3/18/2013-12:18am at 12:18 am (UTC -4)
Rusty you present an interesting hypothesis. If for every event there are n possible outcomes then there is theory that says that each outcome for each event exists in a parallel universe and that outcome itself becomes an event with a universe for each possible outcome to that event, etc. Mathematically an observer should be able to travel from universe to universe so you can witness the outcomes. So there is always hope that you may land in a universe where the Mets are purchased by Mark Cuban. This is why I rarely waste my time with what if scenarios. You can indulge yourself ad infinitum. But it produced one of my favorite Star Trek episodes where they have to let the beautiful Joan Collins be run over by an automobile to save the future.
Mike Bee
3/18/2013-9:08am at 9:08 am (UTC -4)
Under normal circumstances, I’d opt for the universe where the Mets have won every WS since 1969, but unfortunately, they still have rotary phones and New Coke.